Why I have no interest in Coils more specifically, T9.

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Originally Posted by Eight

T9 is an extremely hard fight but I think it's ok. I've been stuck on it now for well over 4 months of nightly runs and it can be very frustrating. I find sometimes the DF is getting better but due to not having time for a static I don't expect to clear it before the expansion although I'm pretty consistent up to dive bombs now.

I'd say T9 is the first real major roadblock/challenge for many people and I'd also say that T9 will be where most people give up on coil it's certainly not for everyone.The phases change so fast now and give very little time to react I find when most people hit a new phase they are instantly dead because there is so much going on in this fight.

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o.ob You can do it! If you can (through PF), get a tank who has macros for calling out the divebomb position. It's easier for the tanks to see where the dragons are from their position, because the healers and DPS are usually facing away from the dragons.

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Originally Posted by Eight

T9 is an extremely hard fight but I think it's ok. I've been stuck on it now for well over 4 months of nightly runs and it can be very frustrating. I find sometimes the DF is getting better but due to not having time for a static I don't expect to clear it before the expansion although I'm pretty consistent up to dive bombs now.

I'd say T9 is the first real major roadblock/challenge for many people and I'd also say that T9 will be where most people give up on coil it's certainly not for everyone.The phases change so fast now and give very little time to react I find when most people hit a new phase they are instantly dead because there is so much going on in this fight.

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Don't give up! You're closer than you realize, you really are. And it feels so good when you clear that first time, it makes all the frustration worth it. (/cheer)

Ehhnn. All right, serious post here, I'll bite.

Full disclosure: I eat dreadwyrm gear for breakfast so don't even try pulling that crap on me.

The problem with T9 is that it is basically as complex as T12 or T13, but T10 and T11 are far less complex than T9, feature less mechanics that are hard-coded instant death, and are only really "harder" in that they require either a higher item level or stricter DPS/Heal/Tank checks than post-Echo T9.

As i130 becomes accessible to even casual players though, that "difficulty" in FCOB rapidly deteriorates, while T9 continues to be a maze of instant-kill mechanics that are hopeless to pug without basically getting a carry. Especially now that nobody wants any of the loot in T9 but the 100 sol isn't quite worth carrying people like it is in T5.

Meanwhile, pretty much anyone with two braincells to rub together and IW/Zeta weapons could scrap out T10 or T11 in their sleep, as almost all of the phases are symmetrical with each other (boss->adds->boss with the same pattern + new gimmick) and only a couple of the mechanics are binary instant kills (some of which you have to almost deliberately trigger, like walking into Kaliya's killfield during T11 adds).

What does T9 as a gatekeeper in April 2015 do? Nothing. There is one mechanic set that you learn there that you take into FCOB - basically every boss asks you to do some variant of Meteor Stream/Thermionic Beam, that other boss fights also teach. T10 and T11 have bosses that, while having way higher numbers, are actually *far* less mechanically complex than the entirety of pre-nerf SCOB. Even Bahamut Prime, frankly, is less complex than Nael, because his "distinct phases" actually repeat a lot of mechanics.

Now, do I think Nael is a bad fight? No it's freaking awesome as something you'd use to end a content cycle. But as a gatekeeper it's terrible because it prepares you for absolutely nothing in FCOB.

poaskpaspokaposkpokoas

T9 is harder then anything in FCoB.

T9 is 4 different fights in one. Almost nothing carries over from one phase to the next.
Phase1 - beak, chariot, dives, meteors
Phase2 - Golems and more meteors
Phase3- Towers plus ghost
Phase4 - Claws, Elementals, Chariot, Dive Bombs

T12
Phase 1 Phoenix plus Black/White Fire
Phase 2 Phoenix plus Brand/Red/Blue Fire
Phase 3 Bennu farm
Phase 4 Phoenix plus Brand,fountains,pinions

Phoneix moves never really change so its 2-4 people doing mechanics while 4-6 just fight. With current gear levels the learning curve is fairly low and is more of a mechanics check like T8.

T13
Phase 1 - Flatten,Megaflare,Earthshakers
Phase 2 - Flatten,Megaflare,Rage (Orbs)
Phase 3 - Adds plus easy divebombs
Phase 4 - Repeat phase 1 plus Twisters

Very low learning curve with mechanics but requires min/maxing healing,DPS and tank rotations. Its more of a "can you play well" check then anything else.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

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You forgot the brands, revelations, and bennu spawns in phase 1 and 2. Not unique to those phases, but definitely will end your day quickly.

Is Phoenix overall as hard as Turn 9? Debatable, I think they are very close in difficulty. Two very different fights.

Point is: beating Nael is not some magical door to easy fights and free loot. That attitude will get you wiped over and over, quick.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Ehhnn. All right, serious post here, I'll bite.

Full disclosure: I eat dreadwyrm gear for breakfast so don't even try pulling that crap on me.

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You also might want to disclose when you got said kills and how since you added the note full disclosure.

'But as a gatekeeper it's terrible because it prepares you for absolutely nothing in FCOB'

Now for someone that is saying they are up there with high end progression, the note with eating dreadwyrm gear for breakfast. Doing more and more complex fights prepares you in more ways then one, it tightens up your timings, you begin to eek out more numbers, movements gets more precise, your statement here is false, makes me wonder if you did these kills legit and not boosted, people who do end game know very well how keeping up doing end game fights prepares you for things ahead, its why end game players constantly get better.

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Originally Posted by Ayrie

You forgot the brands, revelations, and bennu spawns in phase 1 and 2. Not unique to those phases, but definitely will end your day quickly.

Is Phoenix overall as hard as Turn 9? Debatable, I think they are very close in difficulty. Two very different fights.

Point is: beating Nael is not some magical door to easy fights and free loot. That attitude will get you wiped over and over, quick.

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Sorry I only posted the new mechanics. Revelation is the tank killer, if you got past T5 you know how to handle it. Beak+Blight and Claws are both more difficult.

My point was T9 there was a lot more to learn and almost every mechanic was an 8 man mechanic. Brand? 2 people. red/blue fire 2 people. Black/white 3 people. Fountains 3-4 people. That's it.

Some of the thoughts are skewed because T9 can now be done 20 ilvls higher (it was first done at i90 so 40 ilvls higher) with a 20% echo.

Any group that was farming T9 at i110 is definitely finding FCoB easy at i130.

If all 8 people know the mechanics, there's no need to type or use voice chat. The only reason you'd need to type is if you think one of your 8 is a moron who doesn't know how to do the mechanic and you're trying to warn them, at which point, you've already failed. There's no strict need for VOIP in this game; it's a help, but not a crutch or a win button.

The mistake I see many people here making is thinking this game is strictly affirmational like 95% of all the other games they've played in the past 10 years. It's undeniable that games have gone a little bit "soft"; rough edges are sanded down to be as smooth as a baby's bottom through tons of playtesting. Any time a player might spend an extra 30 seconds not knowing exactly where to go and what to do is a "problem spot" to be fixed. Like helicopter parents, games have become tools used solely to affirm that the player is really good and any feeling to the contrary is distressing to this worldview and they can't be allowed to feel that way. Sure, you may die in Call of Duty a few times, but you respawn 5 feet away without any consequence, ready to reassume your fabricated ubermensch persona, unassailable by the forces of the opposition.

It's fairly ironic that the OP has chosen Bloodborne as an example. Bloodborne, latest in the Demon's/Dark Souls milieu, which is part of a trend designed specifically to go AGAINST this affirmational coddling in video games (started with stuff like Super Meat Boy and Spelunky). Like Bloodborne, Coil doesn't bend over backward to provide the smooth experience that today's gamers "deserve". There's nothing impossible or unfair about the mechanics in Coil. You spent the time and the wipes in Coil either discovering or learning/perfecting the strategies used to clear each boss, just like in Dark Souls. You try different things, you discover weaknesses, you eventually succeed. That Coil isn't a loot piñata is not a valid criticism of its design. But alas, whenever a player is challenged in his worldview that he's not "good", they react: if someone kicks them for failing to learn mechanics in a timely matter or doing exceedingly poor DPS, they're elitist; if a fight is too difficult for this player to clear, it's a badly designed fight.

ITT: Someone who plays a mildly challenging game like dark souls/bloodborne, that is more facade than substance when it comes to being challenging, and wishes everything is lowered to those low standards.