SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

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Originally Posted by Avarghaladion

TBH, that would be fine. XI merits are a grind but they're a grind that involves no RNG whatsoever and for which you see consistent, incremental games. Additionally, if properly implemented, they add an effective long term goal and moderate degrees of customizability for different classes. SE straight up isn't gonna do anything like this for XIV though because "omg what about the poor, poor casuals!" and "lolbalance."

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Only issue with that is that they would end falling into a cookie cutter build such as when the cap was still 75 pretty much if you ran a rdm you were expected to put your merits into stuff like Slow II, Paralyze II and other debuffs. I think people are wanting horizontal progression mainly to add variety of gears. I'm not sure how XI's merits hold up anymore with level cap increased to 99 but it felt like when first implemented it was to keep people from really wanting a level cap increase with the expansions.

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Originally Posted by Amiantos

Only issue with that is that they would end falling into a cookie cutter build such as when the cap was still 75 pretty much if you ran a rdm you were expected to put your merits into stuff like Slow II, Paralyze II and other debuffs. I think people are wanting horizontal progression mainly to add variety of gears. I'm not sure how XI's merits hold up anymore with level cap increased to 99 but it felt like when first implemented it was to keep people from really wanting a level cap increase with the expansions.

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I know what you're getting at and there were cookie-cutter players, as there always will be, but there were also other valuable options, especially when factoring in how your character interacted with others in your LS. Really, I'd be happy with any addition to XIV that gave value to continued play and created choice/diversity/customization to some degree. Right now I can't really think of an RPG that gives the player less control over their development than XIV does in the name of balance. As is, we're virtually punished for playing, reward wise.

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Originally Posted by Amiantos

Only issue with that is that they would end falling into a cookie cutter build such as when the cap was still 75 pretty much if you ran a rdm you were expected to put your merits into stuff like Slow II, Paralyze II and other debuffs.

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Phalanx II or fail RDM...

I loved the merit system in FFXI though. It gave players some nice options, and let you truly customize yourself since it was impossible to have everything at once. Sure, sometimes some skills were expected of you, but this was generally rare unless the other available options were lacking in imagination. I know a LOT of Scholars who put tons of points in Sublimation for that slight MP boost, but I also know many who went to maximise their helix spell output, adding duration and potency.

Something like this could add a bit of spice to the otherwise mundane grind, and give players goals to work towards which weren't just another gear upgrade.

Then again, FFXI also had gear sidegrades, since equipment was a lot more varied and interesting than the boring and vanilla system employed in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Amiantos

Only issue with that is that they would end falling into a cookie cutter build such as when the cap was still 75 pretty much if you ran a rdm you were expected to put your merits into stuff like Slow II, Paralyze II and other debuffs. I think people are wanting horizontal progression mainly to add variety of gears. I'm not sure how XI's merits hold up anymore with level cap increased to 99 but it felt like when first implemented it was to keep people from really wanting a level cap increase with the expansions.

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I said I was done with this thread, but the subject changed somewhat, thank god for that.

As a Blm when the level cap was 75 and ToAU was the latest expansion, I never cookie cut my merits. I invested both in elemental, and dark magic merits. I did not just merit thunder and ice, but rather, thunder and water for flood II then burst II dmg. Man, my drains/aspirs in Dynamis with dark skill/fast cast/haste gear macros would almost heal me completely, and reduced my downtime to where I rarely had to rest at all. Every 42 seconds I could cast both, I do believe, when without that gear, it was 1 minute flat.

I never wanted to play the same as others anyway, even if my IV spells hit for 40 dmg less than others. I never had to rest, while the others had to sit for 2+ minutes with refresh. Nobody ever ran a parser and kicked me out because of it either. They knew what was up, when I was the only blm standing and waiting for the others to gain full mp.

DPS numbers aren't the only thing that mattered back then. It seems in this game though, it may be a different story, but I do hope for gear that increases skill, rather than just stats.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I loved the merit system in FFXI though. It gave players some nice options, and let you truly customize yourself since it was impossible to have everything at once. Sure, sometimes some skills were expected of you, but this was generally rare unless the other available options were lacking in imagination.

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BLMs being pigeonholed into 5/5 Lightning potency or 5/5 Ice potency while giving the middle finger to every other element is not what I call good options. Same for DRKs being pigeonholed into soul eater and last resort recast. Don't even get me started on RDMs and 5/5 Ice Accuracy and Convert Recast.

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Something like this could add a bit of spice to the otherwise mundane grind, and give players goals to work towards which weren't just another gear upgrade.

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You're asking for a grind that would be worse than grinding gear. At least when you grind gear you're doing things on relatively your own terms (since you're doing tomes and whatnot). Merits here would make people even more willing to speedrun stuff because exp/hour would become the name of the game. I don't miss that from FFXI and certainly wouldn't want that here.

As a rdm, I was never pigeonholed into anything regarding my setup. Iceacc/earthacc, and did not max out convert, and I didn't get any grief over it. Even more so for my DNC.

How did we get here? To where people are so fearful of innovation they want the same stuff for progression day in and day out? The carnival mmorpg never really sat well with me, particularly the gutting the open world where everything is made safe and there's only "one" place, the duty finder, for our post 50 fun. I have waited, given my feedback, and waited some more, and I believe have given this wow clone its due.

If fundamental aspects of the game is some eternal game of catch up to carnival tickets and party ditching jackasses, I do not see myself enjoying it. It is a job, a chore, set to the tune of running shit over and over again. But it is not fun, it is not hidden behind social groups helping out each other. It is plain as day, with the grind of one activity in one place being the only fucking thing that matters, to the detriment of FC and LS assistance.

That is not "fundamental". It is not "fundamental" to have to sit on our hands for the next 6 months, with story locked behind ridiculously hard content to kiss the ego of "no100sol" toadies.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

As a rdm, Iwas never pigeonholed into anything regarding my setup. Iceacc/earthacc, and did not max out convert, and I didn't get any grief over it. Even more so for my DNC.

How did we get here? To where people are so fearful of innovation they want the same stuff for progression day in and day out? The carnival mmorpg never really sat well with me, particularly the gutting the open world where everything is made safe and there's only "one" place, the duty finder, for our post 50 fun. I have waited, given my feedback, and waited some more, and I believe have given this wow clone its due.

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Your first two sentences are backwards. Since the endgame is dungeon dives and raiding, people are "fearful" of innovation since choice is an illusion. You run the most optimized build with BiS or you go home.

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If fundamental aspects of the game is some eternal game of catch up to carnival tickets and party ditching jackasses, I do not see myself enjoying it. It is a job, a chore, set to the tune of running shit over and over again. But it is not fun, it is not hidden behind social groups helping out each other. It is plain as day, with the grind of one activity in one place being the only fucking thing that matters.

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The notion of keeping up and staying competitive is actually on the playerbase. Is there some reason you need to have Coil done by Heavensward? Sure, it won't be AS heavily run, and the gear will be outdated, but if you're interested in the mechanics and the story, you'll be able to find people who are willing to run it. There is really no reason to have to stay current with gear or content.

That is not "fundamental". It is not "fundamental" to have to sit on our hands for the next 6 months, with story locked behind ridiculously hard content to kiss the ego of "no100sol" toadies.[/QUOTE]

Players are demanding Open World MMORPG's and Horizontal Progression. Character Progression is the most important form of horizontal progression because players treat their character like a in game avatar. Gear progression is a second form of horizontal progression the main problem is with limited inventory space we will eventually run out of space. Both end up turning into grinds at end game regardless but we can tract or progress because we know the preconditions to getting a new piece of gear or an ability point.

People complain about MMO's being grindy, and the same people want to put merits into the game? You guys -really- don't know what you want. Also, there is no creativity in merits, you will do the optimized set up like everyone else and you will see at the end of the day you just added an unnecessary extra grind to the game. Again, ask for more refreshing, different forms of "content", not potential game breaking changes. Ask for certain events and how content is presented. I guarantee a developer will listen to that before "Completely change how the backbone of your game works so it will be needlessly complex despite people doing BiS no matter how you change it." They got a solid, working stat based system that is easy to learn and understand, not to mention much easier to balance and they are not going to add complex stat allocations and elemental wheel like they have explained too many times since the beta of this game. Who cares if you think it is boring, I never recall math being fun to begin with. Give me something that works and balance isn't that big of an issue, that is all that is needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU

Adding new or interesting content will not work without a major change in the backbone of the game.

They can add 100 unique dungeons, 50 8 man instance boss fig...."Raids". 10,000 strong unique voice over quest in the expansion.

But if there is still 1 max level raid and dungeons are for nothing but token gear... the game has the same problem as it has now.

You need complexity in a mmo, you need grind in a mmo. The goal is to make them fun. Easy, Ultra balanced, simple = boring and extremely limited of a game. MMOs should start off ultra simple and get more and more complex and deep as you get to endgame. If a player cannot figure it out THEY DESERVE TO FAIL AT ENDGAME. the catering to the lowest common denominator is why game are getting more and more blah as time is going on. Complexity and depth + alittle bit of unballanced > ultra simplistic and perfect balance.