Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

They are one and the same, there is no conflating here. This is a cooperative based game, if you aren't contributing you are being toxic

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I stand firmly by the idea that struggling at a task and being toxic about it are two entirely separate things.

I didn't have a strong opinion on parsers, but people with your kind of mindset is the one reason I would be against them. I thought it was an overblown phenomena, but you're just showing me that an official dps meter really is a bad idea in the end.

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Originally Posted by Estecka

I stand firmly by the idea that struggling at a task and being toxic about it are two entirely separate things.

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And you're wrong. There is no valid excuse to not pull your weight in group content

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Thanks for being the perfect example as to why we should not allow a official in-game parser.
Because people like you are in no way helpful and would abuse it to be toxic towards "casual" player's because their number is not as high as you want it to be.

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Quite frankly, I’m starting to think Yoshi-P’s approach to the current status quo regarding parsers is probably the right (or the least riskiest) approach. Maybe we do have more tryhards in the community than I realized.

Though perhaps open parsing could act as a defense mechanism against such people if they’re really abusing it in that way. People are gonna parse, official or not, but making it officially supported allows everyone to see the information on equal footing. This is only a hypothetical scenario though, so such thoughts are admittedly of dubious value.

I mostly only want to see it happen because I’ve observed a number of people in roulettes over the years who are actually far better than they realize, after accounting for gear. Seeing it in numbers could be the confidence boost they need to try jumping into the raiding scene.

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Quite frankly, I’m starting to think Yoshi-P’s approach to the current status quo regarding parsers is probably the right (or the least riskiest) approach. Maybe we do have more tryhards in the community than I realized.

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I agree.

The propensity for abuse of a parsing tool, is, I believe, at the core of his concerns, and as I have stated, I support and agree with his stance on the matter.

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Seeing it in numbers could be the confidence boost they need to try jumping into the raiding scene.

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With respect, you are assuming they WANT TO in the first place.

Gonna squeeze into this dumpster fire of a thread just to shout into the void that toxic whataboutism is such a pathetic argument in general.
"Hah, I actually could abuse others even without this additional tool!" is very brave.
The community is unable to uphold civility? Beatings will continue until manners improve.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Still pretending introduction of a parser would suddenly remove all TOS I see. The reason ff14 is so tame is because the enforcement of moderation is so heavy. That's legit the reason. There is no reason to believe this would change.

Vel, what do you think would happen if I was to pop off on a dude who failed a mechanic? Why do you pretend so hard that it would be different if I was to pop off on someone's dps instead?

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Okay, then explain to me why people should be given official tools to 'pop off' on someone in the first place. Saying parsers won't promote harassment is absurd. The current approach is the best compromise. The game already gives you tools to make private parties etc. All I see here is yet another way to dictate how others are allowed to play. MMOs are team-focused games. If some feel the need to control everything 100% then this is simply the wrong genre.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Okay, then explain to me why people should be given official tools to 'pop off' on someone in the first place. Saying parsers won't promote harassment is absurd. The current approach is the best compromise. The game already gives you tools to make private parties etc. All I see here is yet another way to dictate how others are allowed to play. MMOs are team-focused games. If some feel the need to control everything 100% then this is simply the wrong genre.

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So you support people carrying their weight? If so then you support the player base being given the means to determine if they are doing so

Seen in another mmo that shall remain nameless where the use of damage meters is cool and unfortuately yes it DOES add to the toxicity. Its unfortuate though i would think most players probably wouldnt use it against other players but even off this whole convo i can clearly see it would add toxicity to this game. Especially if ff added it people who clamour for it will then be like see i was right we needed it and now i can say shit to players who arent up to my standard. At least right now if they use it who cares but if they try to go after another player with that data they will be the one in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Okay, then explain to me why people should be given official tools to 'pop off' on someone in the first place. Saying parsers won't promote harassment is absurd. The current approach is the best compromise. The game already gives you tools to make private parties etc. All I see here is yet another way to dictate how others are allowed to play. MMOs are team-focused games. If some feel the need to control everything 100% then this is simply the wrong genre.

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I'm saying giving people an ingame parser does not give them the tools to pop off on someone. I can already see if someone is failing mechanics or is dying through the ingame party list. Obviously popping off on someone because they have 3 vuln stacks and double weakness will get me a swift vacation into GM jail. You agree with that, right?
Why do you think popping off on someone over their damage numbers would lead to a different outcome?

We can't even get an option to turn off other's glamours without half of the playerbase throwing a tantrum. A dps meter is a fever dream at this point, lmao.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Dude, you're not helping.

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bold of you to assume he's trying to help xD

As much as I understand people's desire for this -- especially in terms of self-improvement -- having bounced between WoW and FFXIV a lot, I can confidently say I think the current system is the best way to go -- that is: let people do it on their own without talking about it, but don't make it official or a mainstream part of the game for most players.

Between the two MMOs, FFXIV is just known to be the friendlier and less toxic community, and part of that is the lack of expecting players to use damage meters unless its content where parsing is actually important (like I can understand it for Abyssos Savage, but not Tam Tara Deepcroft or Sastasha).

In WoW you're expected to have them at level 10 and to keep up on the meters no matter how wildly varied the levels are of those you're paired with. It means players aren't allowed to learn at their own place, and have to copy and paste cookie cutter builds that make their new talent tree system pointless. And players will regularly discuss this and criticize new players for a level 10 not keeping up with level 50s.

Having the meters in FFXIV is a Pandora's box that would open FFXIV up to losing its uniqueness as a friendly MMO.

The ability is there if you need it, don't make it official.

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Originally Posted by erisdisqordia

Having the meters in FFXIV is a Pandora's box that would open FFXIV up to losing its uniqueness as a friendly MMO.

The ability is there if you need it, don't make it official.

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Losing its uniqueness as a friendly MMO? I guess we're just going to ignore Novice Network, Shout, and just about any other FC chat? FF14 is just as toxic as any other MMORPG we just cover our ears and close our eyes pretending it's not.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Losing its uniqueness as a friendly MMO? I guess we're just going to ignore Novice Network, Shout, and just about any other FC chat? FF14 is just as toxic as any other MMORPG we just cover our ears and close our eyes pretending it's not.

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You have to admit that it was a bit different during the HW/early StB era. PF and even DF parties were a lot more talkative and would throw "bantz" around more freely. Of course, there was always someone who took it too far but for the most part people were more than happy to talk to each other. Something happened though...

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Losing its uniqueness as a friendly MMO? I guess we're just going to ignore Novice Network, Shout, and just about any other FC chat? FF14 is just as toxic as any other MMORPG we just cover our ears and close our eyes pretending it's not.

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I completely disagree. In WoW everyone is angry, in FFXIV people actively want to help you. In WoW everything is a competition, in FFXIV we cooperate.

There's some bad apples in any game, but you definitely can't state that FFXIV's culture isn't more friendly than other MMOs, because it's night and day different. And I still like WoW and will continue to revisit it, but it makes me come back to FFXIV for the community here.

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Originally Posted by hagare

bold of you to assume he's trying to help xD

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Some people grow.

Some people only get older.

:P

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Though I do remember being heavily displeased with how rDPS became the default metric, because of how it ultimately contributed to the shitshow that was the Stormblood job meta.

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To be fair, it didn't. People were already assuming buff contribution to be larger than it actually was until xivhiro introduced rDPS calculations and fflogs later integrated that directly. The largest factor behind the Stormblood job meta was quite simply weapon types. Its most common composition (Double Ranged), after all, was simply carried over from HW's period in which Bard wasn't undertuned.

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Originally Posted by erisdisqordia

I completely disagree. In WoW everyone is angry, in FFXIV people actively want to help you. In WoW everything is a competition, in FFXIV we cooperate.

There's some bad apples in any game, but you definitely can't state that FFXIV's culture isn't more friendly than other MMOs, because it's night and day different. And I still like WoW and will continue to revisit it, but it makes me come back to FFXIV for the community here.

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you sweet summer child....

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Losing its uniqueness as a friendly MMO? I guess we're just going to ignore Novice Network, Shout, and just about any other FC chat? FF14 is just as toxic as any other MMORPG we just cover our ears and close our eyes pretending it's not.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

You have to admit that it was a bit different during the HW/early StB era. PF and even DF parties were a lot more talkative and would throw "bantz" around more freely. Of course, there was always someone who took it too far but for the most part people were more than happy to talk to each other. Something happened though...

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It was more talkative / social even between and among strangers, but also more confrontational back then. The two are correlative.

Or more simply put, under a given ToA, toxicity doesn't increase or decrease from anything but systems regularly putting together people with interests that cannot be simultaneously met. If the policies are the same and yet public/visible 'toxicity' has decreased, it's almost certain that friendly banter in those locations/situations will have decreased as well.

No increase or decrease in information is going to make a few people want to be wiped repeatedly to easy mechanics in the course of carrying a few others who don't want to wait until after knowing how to play their jobs before pursuing Savage gear. No increase or decrease in information is going to make one person in Anemos who wants to farm just their challenge logs as quickly as possible not be in conflict with a party who wants to follow the NM train.

Here, the difference between a conflict with a baseline parser or without one for a PuGed Savage raid, etc., is simply how many wipes it takes to determine whether there's something untenable, how efficient it would be to help repair the weak links through advice/accommodation (since that includes the time required to identify what to address), and whether a situation that cannot be fixed would require disbanding to further waste 8 people's time or to retain all but those who were taking advantage of the others (egregiously underprepared) or making it effectively impossible for others to improve (so excessively a downer as to border harassment, etc.).

But that's it. It's one more tool, atop your eyes, your ears, etc., for seeing what could go better as needed to let people do what they want to do.

In some PFs, that could literally be to remove the person who wants everyone to "Stop talking and just pull" if the point is the banter and wouldn't therefore be helped by a parser, but in most parties the primary intent of doing the content is... doing the content (or, the rewards for doing so), and as difficulty increases to the point that fewer and fewer line-skippers can be carried through it, the more conflicts will arise but also the more a parser would then help to resolve those conflicts at less toll to time and emotions by making it more efficient to help them and/or by retaining the best time-value for everyone else if the individual doesn't want to improve to that minimum threshold anyways despite expecting from others that clear and loot. Rather than wiping repeatedly and then disbanding outright for fear of reprisal if the unprepared person does not wish to improve (or silently kicking them in order to avoid risk for the 7 at cost to opportunities for the 1), the 7 could see the person either improve or be replaced with someone who isn't simply skipping ahead and unfairly expecting others to compensate for them.


I wish people would stop attributing to resources, tools, techniques, practices, etc... things that far predate them. They are responsible only for their increase. But there is no increase here to the conflicts that arise, only to perhaps the efficiency with which they're resolved. At most, it takes on a different form in which those who would rather take advantage of others are more likely to be called out so that when a party does not wish to be taken advantage of, they can do something about it with less time and stress involved. Let's not pretend, though, that being asked to do what one signed up for is toxic, or that expecting others to do one's work for you is not, or that maximizing lost time and tensions is somehow a good thing just because, despite the added boil, less spills into party chat.

More likely, a state of the game in which self-improvement and advice therefor is not vilified would create fewer conflicts overall, as it would seem less nebulous and large a hurdle to actually prepare oneself for whatever content they want the loot from.

As I said way earlier, I'm pretty done with this thread and not participating in the argument anymore because it's just beating my head against a wall. But fun little tidbit I just learned yesterday that I wanted to share, on the subject of toxicity, there's apparently alliances of venues in which basically a top venue enforces rules on how the venues operate and who to blacklist and whatnot and if you don't get on board your venue basically gets killed because the alliance will try to make sure no one visits it.

You know, for anyone who thinks 14's community isn't toxic.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

As I said way earlier, I'm pretty done with this thread and not participating in the argument anymore because it's just beating my head against a wall. But fun little tidbit I just learned yesterday that I wanted to share, on the subject of toxicity, there's apparently alliances of venues in which basically a top venue enforces rules on how the venues operate and who to blacklist and whatnot and if you don't get on board your venue basically gets killed because the alliance will try to make sure no one visits it.

You know, for anyone who thinks 14's community isn't toxic.

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Damn...I kinda wanna delve into this cutthroat world of FFXIV venues. Seems like it would be an interesting rabbit hole.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

A fundamental disconnect, right here.

That you would dismiss out of hand the very valid fact that parsers ENABLE toxic behaviour, a trend and fact that has been proven correct time and again, is where you are wrong.

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The way I've put it before is that combat parsing/analysis tools are indeed just tools, like fire. Or a knife.

Fire can be used to cook or to (at least mostly) sterilize; a knife can be used to cut food, or perform surgery. Those are good things! But fire can also be used for arson or other harmful things, and muggers can use knives.

Tools for parsing or other combat analysis are not themselves inherently toxic, any more than fire or knives are inherently bad. They can be used to improve your own performance. They can be used to help a static optimize their strategy for a fight. Etc.

I actually wouldn't say they even cause toxicity; it's not like people who are going to use a parser to try to be cruel/toxic to someone else would otherwise be angelic bastions of light. I mean, a mugger doesn't become a mugger because "oh, gosh, knives exist, I guess instead of being a kind person I'm going to go try to shank someone and take their wallet."

(They do, as you put it, enable people to be toxic... but let's be honest, we've all run into people who are capable of being toxic just fine even without referencing a parser of any sort.)

And yet, even as someone who is very in favor of officially moddable games in general (albeit not FFXIV at this point, for reasons which I've detailed at length elsewhere) and who also believes that there's immense value in personal performance analysis tools...

As someone who has worked in the industry, I still would not put a pure 'damage meter' parser in any multiplayer game I created.

As I have said before, people are sometimes going to make spitballs to try and annoy other players with; that doesn't mean I as the developer need to hand them the straw and the paper to do so. Or, to go to my earlier analogy... someone might be the sort who's likely to try to go grab someone's wallet regardless, but I don't need to hand them the knife; that only encourages them.

I do agree at a high end it can be very useful to know where a group is falling apart; if the game added a performance-focused parser that shared information with the group as a whole, just make it something that's only enabled in savage and ultimate content. (Realistically, I don't care whether the RPR in my alliance is performing optimally in the current alliance raid. I potentially care a lot more if said RPR and I are both in a PF group that isn't making the P8Sp1 DPS check. Not because I want to berate said RPR, but because if we just numerically cannot make the DPS check, I may want to consider bouncing and trying a different PF group...)

But I absolutely, firmly, 100% believe that if a game can provide tools for a player to improve when they actively want to do so, that's a great thing to do. Whether it's a competitive FPS having a 'play against AI' mode where you can practice (and get a breakdown of your accuracy or whatnot at the end, ideally) without the pressure of worrying about letting down real human teammates, or an action RPG that has jumping puzzles having a practice area, or...

Well, an MMO providing personal combat analysis tools of some form.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

As someone who has worked in the industry, I still would not put a pure 'damage meter' parser in any multiplayer game I created.

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Same. Though for me that's a matter of it being a wasted opportunity to do more / better.

Just like some may mistake "took no Vuln stacks" for "is playing perfectly" when eyeballing, some may mistake one person's {comparatively high raw damage} for {comparatively high performance} by forgetting to account for other factors that raw damage includes/conflates (single-target buffs received, item level, not having been PKed earlier, etc.).

There are ways to make an at-a-glance indicator of performance far, far more reliable and precise than what raw damage alone can do and ways to contextualize that performance data as to maximize its use for learning. Give no context for something and, just like any tier list that even comes with an explicit warning that the differences will not exceed those of player familiarity and that every job is wholly viable, its perception can grow rampantly disproportionate. Would that still simply replace other, equally bad misconceptions that were already there? Yes, but given the opportunity to do better, we should do better.

And I agree that viewing these tools needs to be optional. Some don't care to do anything that would require the degree of learning or engagement that those tools are meant for, and that's fine. Moreover, some just cannot concentrate with that shit in the corner of their vision.
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My sole point of disagreement is in that I don't think parsers uniquely enable any toxicity. To me, for something to enable toxicity, there'd have to be something about it that either (A) supplies a means for unwanted behavior that the doer was already predisposed to or intending to do or (B) cues (i.e., things that seemingly gives reason for) that unwanted behavior where it wouldn't otherwise exist.

If anyone were looking to check something at a glance with the intention of pushing others down or themselves up at others' expense, there's no bottleneck there over means of doing so; people can, and do, 'lesser' others over job choice, glamour, language, spelling, vuln stacks, etc., to the point that adding "low damage" is a redundancy that can only replace other (if far less likely to actually have any negative impact on others) choices of 'excuse' for that meanness; it provides no real increase to the means of harassing others.

And what new cues it does trigger aren't, in themselves, related to harassment, but rather just hasten and thereby lessens (in terms of stress caused for the average person affected) already inevitable confrontations by reducing the time it takes for the inevitable desire to fix the problem that's becoming increasingly visible to focus where it's most useful. Under the existing system, one of two major forms of harassment (silent, as compared to vocal) is purposely protected, made less visible and armed against threat of discovery, but despite partially silencing reactions to their impact, it still had an equal impact -- it'd make runs stressful to the point of people preferring to disband over continuing as is. With parsers, both forms are visible and can be more immediately addressed, but to no net increase in harassment (more likely a net decrease). As such, I can't see how someone would necessarily prefer that things stay exactly as they are unless they're specifically taking advantage of its purpose-built blindspots.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

So you were a burden and were removed. This is a GOOD thing that happened. Use your dismissal to learn to not be a bad

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Seriously, players like you shouldn't even be allowed to play online games.

Listening to him, you'd think loosing is against the ToS, and that the best way to learn is to be forbidden from practising.

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Originally Posted by Estecka

Listening to him, you'd think loosing is against the ToS, and that the best way to learn is to be forbidden from practising.

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To be fair, I don't think he's made those cases for players just doing actually casual content. From what I remember, his threshold for "not griefing" in dungeons, for instance, was at least using AoE as roughly appropriate and rotating a majority of one's non-redundant CDs.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily put much stock in what someone who often has at least seemed to intend to inflame first and convincingly opine only as a distant second would think on this, especially given the low-hanging flammable fruit obvious to this topic. There are some conflicting interests, to say the least, between making any sort of cohesive sense and merely getting people riled that would push any pro-parser position he might hold to a comic extreme.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Seriously, players like you shouldn't even be allowed to play online games.

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You being butthurt that someone actually stands for making an effort doesn't detract from facts, all it does is make you a brat

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Damn...I kinda wanna delve into this cutthroat world of FFXIV venues. Seems like it would be an interesting rabbit hole.

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You wanna be Alice or the Cheshire Cat? We could go get the Cards after us. Haha

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Originally Posted by SlouchyBard

You wanna be Alice or the Cheshire Cat? We could go get the Cards after us. Haha

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Haha Perhaps I could be the Mad Hatter. We can show up and watch everyone Bee's Knees in silence.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Haha Perhaps I could be the Mad Hatter. We can show up and watch everyone Bee's Knees in silence.

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Perfect! But instead of listening to whatever stuff they have on their Spotify. We can listen to our own awesome Spotify playlists.

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Originally Posted by SlouchyBard

Perfect! But instead of listening to whatever stuff they have on their Spotify. We can listen to our own awesome Spotify playlists.

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They would probably kick us out if we actually socialized on /say. I'm actually up for testing this out. Us and a few others that would like to join should do some sort of Bar Crawl.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

They would probably kick us out if we actually socialized on /say. I'm actually up for testing this out. Us and a few others that would like to join should do some sort of Bar Crawl.

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On one condition, every club we go to we have to go to a corner and say "Emilio!"

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Originally Posted by SlouchyBard

On one condition, every club we go to we have to go to a corner and say "Emilio!"

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Haha! WOOO!

*Awkward silence*

So...you guys wanna make out?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You being butthurt that someone actually stands for making an effort doesn't detract from facts, all it does is make you a brat

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"Effort" says the one that can't avoid damage downs and gets carried.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

"Effort" says the one that can't avoid damage downs and gets carried.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTUALBzIBWM

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Originally Posted by Ransu

"Effort" says the one that can't avoid damage downs and gets carried.

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Who has carried them? :)

Boys we did it, 101 pages, and 1,001 posts!

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Who has carried them? :)

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Watch it run from this for the hundredth time

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Who has carried them? :)

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Stupid question for 100 Alex.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Watch it run from this for the hundredth time

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Stupid question for 100 Alex.

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Man, its behavior is so predictable