Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

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Originally Posted by Bryson

you didn't answer any of my questions though?

1. How is the random getting inside FT, unless they rely on members of the premade to offer ciphers (requires at least 16 ciphers)
2. Why is the random going in with a premade, entitled to a raise?

you're conflating what they intended, with the reality of the situation.

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I have answered your questions
1. The randoms are NOT getting in without the premade (a lot of people suddenly showing up) due to the environment that has been bred. But they are still entitled to joining a public instance.
2. They are entitled to a raise because not raising them is actively and deliberately griefing , ironically, as opposed to unsuspecting randoms joining a run.

I never said that the intended design doesn't contradict with the practical reality of how the community engages with the raid, all I am saying is that the toxicity and elitism is a choice.

Also just to be clear I would personally never show up as a random unless I had studied the whole fight at the very least via some type of guide. This is not meant to reflect my own actions.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

They aren't in part because discord gatekeepers have created an environment wherein the whole OC instance is scared to pug the raid as it was designed btw. It is a pug entry design like cll and dalriada, it's not a premade entry design. At any rate it's pretty expected and normal for unsuspecting randoms to try enter the raid when a lot of people suddenly show up on the platform. Being hostile to them and calling them snipers and wanting to murder and not raise them , is still a choice.

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You know this isn't true dude. CLL and Dalriada didn't have currency that you needed to use in order to get in there.

CLL and Dalriada didn't have mandatory Lost Actions that would break progs instantly if not coordinated.

CLL and Dalriada didn't have randoms that could annihilate a raid, whether by accident or on purpose.

And CLL and Dalriada required ZERO PREPARATION.

That content didn't have this problem for a reason.

When people found out what exactly this garbage entailed, I never got in, and every time there was a aurora mirages, people were warned NOT to go in, not because there was a Discord premade in the instance, because they would delevel when they died, for no benefit. It's not practical. If you tried to pug anything high end, and your 8th person was randomly replaced with any other person in the PF, it would be just as impossible, it's nonsensical.

Square Enix created this. This is the fault of no one but the developers. They did this. Only them. None of the players coded the entry method, or the game. It's a response. Do you punish the fighting dogs, or the owner doing NOTHING?

Any other screaming is muddying the waters, and allowing the developers to escape fault by blaming anyone or anything else but themselves for their egregious mistakes, which they have DONE in the past and continue to DO.

By speaking in this way, you are allowing them to have plausible deniability, and escape accountability by having justified anger thrown at each other in the playerbase slums instead of the architect at the top, designing the problem.

Like, just THINK about it. Who would benefit from you acting like this, except for the company?

You aren't wrong! But we aren't wrong either! That's why this is so frustrating!

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Originally Posted by RinonSenjou

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When the tank buster went off, the OP is standing on the outside of the boss, and got hit by the cleave. It was their own fault. As an aside, OP was on tank - they would have been fine standing in front of the boss for that cleave, had they popped a cooldown.

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We had already experienced a near miss after the first boss where the OP nearly killed a number us to running through trap infested zone. We did not trust them.

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Help, this is so much more stupid than I thought it'd be. OP is literally a griefing leech. I had suspected as much, but running through the hallway? Crazy.

Snipers being surprised that infringing on the time and effort of up to 47 players, not to mention taking the spot of another player who made the time and effort to waste time hoping for the weather to spawn, should at least have the basic courtesy to realise that they aren't entitled to anything, especially if you ignore everything the group is telling you and wipe the raid. The entry method is legitimately monkey's paw levels of bad, and there's no need to make it worse by introducing yet another layer of rng to the run.

At the end of the day it's CBU3's fault for the arcane entry system, and we should lay all the blame squarely (enix) at them.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

I have answered your questions
1. The randoms are NOT getting in without the premade (a lot of people suddenly showing up) due to the environment that has been bred. But they are still entitled to joining a public instance.
2. They are entitled to a raise because not raising them is actively and deliberately griefing , ironically, as opposed to unsuspecting randoms joining a run.

I never said that the intended design doesn't contradict with the practical reality of how the community engages with the raid, all I am saying is that the toxicity and elitism is a choice.

Also just to be clear I would personally never show up as a random unless I had studied the whole fight at the very least via some type of guide. This is not meant to reflect my own actions.

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The random did end up getting into the raid though, and ended up causing more deaths than just their own.

If anything, raising a player who is neither prepared nor willing to communicate with those who are prepared, especially in a raid with personal responsibility mechanics would cause much more grief.

Which ended up happening anyway as they exploded traps, killing several others.

I personally object to the notion that this is 100% on Square Enix. I hold people to a higher standard.

I think in cases where people choose to snipe and are actually aware of the amount of planning and instance hopping involved to actually get 48 people into Forked Tower, there must simply be some empathetic circuits missing in their brain. If the organiser or shotcaller is the one that gets locked out due to the sniper, the entire run is effectively over (including for the sniper) - and for a parasite to be effective it actually needs to keep its host alive.

Regardless of how the content is designed and how clued in a player is when they approach the entrance - every individual has their own free mind and social faculties - it is incredibly obvious in these standoffs at the entrance to Forked Tower, at least to those with the manners to listen, that by trying to enter they are disrupting (and potentially completely ruining) an organised effort to clear the content - content that they would be unable to access at all were it not for the organised group being there.

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Originally Posted by Neclord

I personally object to the notion that this is 100% on Square Enix. I hold people to a higher standard.

I think in cases where people choose to snipe and are actually aware of the amount of planning and instance hopping involved to actually get 48 people into Forked Tower, there must simply be some empathetic circuits missing in their brain. If the organiser or shotcaller is the one that gets locked out due to the sniper, the entire run is effectively over (including for the sniper) - and for a parasite to be effective it actually needs to keep its host alive.

Regardless of how the content is designed and how clued in a player is when they approach the entrance - every individual has their own free mind and social faculties - it is incredibly obvious in these standoffs at the entrance to Forked Tower, at least to those with the manners to listen, that by trying to enter they are disrupting (and potentially completely ruining) an organised effort to clear the content - content that they would be unable to access at all were it not for the organised group being there.

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Nah, I disagree with the notion that this isn't 100% on square.

No one gets to design a system that just screws over people and expect them to just harmoniously come to a solution, or otherwise the very people being screwed are also at fault. Especially if any reasonable solution results in a large subset being disadvantaged. That's just insanity.

Also how do you define what is a "higher standard". Im guessing it sides with the argument you are more favorable to ( premades should take priority due to the nature of the content's dificulity). An argument with a rational basis. However, the opposing argument (this content was designed for the public to queue so I have the right) is also of a rational basis. Both sides will claim their standard is the better one.

Any half decent designer should have seen this whole disaster from a mile away, especially after they did it before in BA and everyone complained then. 100% on Square

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Originally Posted by Neclord

I personally object to the notion that this is 100% on Square Enix. I hold people to a higher standard.

I think in cases where people choose to snipe and are actually aware of the amount of planning and instance hopping involved to actually get 48 people into Forked Tower, there must simply be some empathetic circuits missing in their brain. If the organiser or shotcaller is the one that gets locked out due to the sniper, the entire run is effectively over (including for the sniper) - and for a parasite to be effective it actually needs to keep its host alive.

Regardless of how the content is designed and how clued in a player is when they approach the entrance - every individual has their own free mind and social faculties - it is incredibly obvious in these standoffs at the entrance to Forked Tower, at least to those with the manners to listen, that by trying to enter they are disrupting (and potentially completely ruining) an organised effort to clear the content - content that they would be unable to access at all were it not for the organised group being there.

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This! We've had party leaders sniped before, and while my own runs have yet to get sniped, if they ever did and I got yeeted out, I'd have to literally cancel or make someone else shotcall, which, there's like 6 people who actually wanna do that. At most. And they're all at different prog points. Not to mention losing your single Oracle or your single Berserker.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

They aren't in part because discord gatekeepers have created an environment wherein the whole OC instance is scared to pug the raid as it was designed btw.

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No they haven't. I've never seen a discord in OC at any point I've been in there and I have seen the weather appear lots of times. At any of those times, we could all have entered, but we didn't. I know we didn't because the turnout at CEs and FATEs would drop and I'd check the status of everyone in the instance.

They also try and get an empty instance for it to avoid affecting others in an established instance and so they can everyone into it. This is hard because it's RNG, but you know, they're trying to keep out of people's way. This is likely why I've not come across them.

I can only speak for myself. I've not entered because I've not got round to it. Still leveling Phantom jobs and grinding things. It could just be that many others are in the same boat.

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Being hostile to them and calling them snipers and wanting to murder and not raise them , is still a choice.

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I agree that calling them snipers directly is rude, since they may not know. But other than that word, it was politely explained that it was an organized group. And there are discords that do accept randoms.

But it works both ways - it's team content and there is no I in team, so they need to collaborate and join the discord so they can coordinate.

Now, they could try and just not join and "know mechanics" like people do in PF. But then they had better be as good at them as the other 47 people there, or they are making 47 people wipe which is inconsiderate when they could have received callouts in discord. And you know how this game is. A lot of people need the callouts because they won't remember all the mechanics from several boss fights.

Then there is role assignment - maybe this could be done via chat but it may be easier in voice. NA already spends 15 minutes deciding positions with markers for other content as it is. And voicechat is a basic concept in MMORPGs for high-difficulty fights.

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They are entitled to a raise because not raising them is actively and deliberately griefing

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I agree that it's griefing because it's not teamplay. But it's difficult to prove. They could have just run out of rez potions or need them for a strategy. In BA they could argue they are concerned about the penalty. Etc. And in reality if they died of their own lack of mechanical knowledge when everyone else knows the mechanics well, then it's a practical risk to rez them. They could solve this entire problem by not dying in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Alahard

Nah, I disagree with the notion that this isn't 100% on square.

No one gets to design a system that just screws over people and expect them to just harmoniously come to a solution, or otherwise the very people being screwed are also at fault. Especially if any reasonable solution results in a large subset being disadvantaged. That's just insanity.

Also how do you define what is a "higher standard". Im guessing it sides with the argument you are more favorable to ( premades should take priority due to the nature of the content's dificulity). An argument with a rational basis. However, the opposing argument (this content was designed for the public to queue so I have the right) is also of a rational basis. Both sides will claim their standard is the better one.

Any half decent designer should have seen this whole disaster from a mile away, especially after they did it before in BA and everyone complained then. 100% on Square

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The player is not an automatic, mindless drone that is incapable of interacting with other players. Field Operation is targeted at people who want a MMO feel and to communicate with other players beyond a simple "o/" and "gg" in a roulette.

My standard is that the player is a sentient person who is capable of using language to engage with other players in the game. These snipers are given clear explanations about the impact of their behaviour, are politely asked to not disrupt the run and choose to ignore it.

Many game systems have flaws that are solved by player etiquette. This will not be the last example of it. To ignore direction from the other (majority) participants in the instance, who are entering Forked Tower with a clear and deliberate objective, because the player has some bizarre belief that they have a right to be in there because the game allows them to snipe is just antisocial on the part of the player.