Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

If you're only using Edge/Flood once every 30s you're doing it very wrong.

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Really cause that's what I seem to recall the community saying at least around launch. Have to keep your buff up so make sure you're at least doing it once every 30 seconds.

But here in lies a small rub in using them. I won't go into the issues about MP but ask a different question. How often should we be actually casting them and how often should we be getting them for free from TBN? Checking how well TBN should be worked into the rotation for a DPS gain(And not like a defense skill with a bonus, no it's a free damage skill that gives a shield up front), is that you can't really test this against say, training dummies. No there's only a few places where you can practice just how many Edges you actually should be getting. Especially now if people have better gear scores and thus TBN is actually harder to break.

So I'm just asking, how many Edges should we be getting, from Normal Cast and Free TBN casts?

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Really cause that's what I seem to recall the community saying at least around launch. Have to keep your buff up so make sure you're at least doing it once every 30 seconds.

But here in lies a small rub in using them. I won't go into the issues about MP but ask a different question. How often should we be actually casting them and how often should we be getting them for free from TBN? Checking how well TBN should be worked into the rotation for a DPS gain(And not like a defense skill with a bonus, no it's a free damage skill that gives a shield up front), is that you can't really test this against say, training dummies. No there's only a few places where you can practice just how many Edges you actually should be getting. Especially now if people have better gear scores and thus TBN is actually harder to break.

So I'm just asking, how many Edges should we be getting, from Normal Cast and Free TBN casts?

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Normal casts range from 10 seconds to 25 seconds based on either Blood Weapon or Delirium thanks to removal of the haste effect among other things, and if you are using only 1-2-3 with Carve and Spit... as for TBN, I never use it unless I really need to but by then I have no MP to use for TBN... also using Edge and Flood after somehow losing Darkside is only a minor DPS loss, like 35 potency for Flood and 50 potency for Edge is lost... so DPS gain is so small with Darkside that you might as well not have Darkside as a a job mechanic for Dark Knight...

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Really cause that's what I seem to recall the community saying at least around launch. Have to keep your buff up so make sure you're at least doing it once every 30 seconds.

But here in lies a small rub in using them. I won't go into the issues about MP but ask a different question. How often should we be actually casting them and how often should we be getting them for free from TBN? Checking how well TBN should be worked into the rotation for a DPS gain(And not like a defense skill with a bonus, no it's a free damage skill that gives a shield up front), is that you can't really test this against say, training dummies. No there's only a few places where you can practice just how many Edges you actually should be getting. Especially now if people have better gear scores and thus TBN is actually harder to break.

So I'm just asking, how many Edges should we be getting, from Normal Cast and Free TBN casts?

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One every 30 seconds is the absolute minimum to keep darkside up, but you wpuld overcap on mp, with only 2 uses per minute. DRK's mp generation is enough for 4 Edges/Floods per minute (it's slightly more but not enough for more uses). TBN only costs you uses, if it doesn't break. It never gains you a use cast, it only allows you to stockpile one more cast fpr raidbuffs or burn phases. So the answer is always 4 per minute, in a 100% uptime fight, and around 3 additional uses, per fight, because of the starting mp.

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Originally Posted by Kyni

One every 30 seconds is the absolute minimum to keep darkside up, but you wpuld overcap on mp, with only 2 uses per minute. DRK's mp generation is enough for 4 Edges/Floods per minute (it's slightly more but not enough for more uses). TBN only costs you uses, if it doesn't break. It never gains you a use cast, it only allows you to stockpile one more cast fpr raidbuffs or burn phases. So the answer is always 4 per minute, in a 100% uptime fight, and around 3 additional uses, per fight, because of the starting mp.

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Which pushes things up to 10.8 ogcds per minute, but it appear that most of the Dark Knight's ogcd usage is frontloaded each minute. AD, SE, CnS and Living Shadow have little reason to be delayed so you more or less end up using those ogcds at the start and then spend the rest of the minute doing 123 occasionally 4 with the occasional Edge and Plunge.

GCD differences

DRK: SE combo, Bloodspiller, StalS combo, Quietus
4 Unique ST keys, 3 Unique AoE keys

PLD: RA combo, Goring combo, Atonement, Holy Spirit, Confetiteor, Prom Combo, Holy Circle
7 Unique ST keys, 4 Unique AoE keys (Confetiteor appears in both ST and AoE)

WAR: Path Combo, Eye Combo, Fell Cleave/Inner Chaos, Mythril Combo, Decimate/Chaotic Cyclone
5 Unique ST keys, 3 Unique AoE keys

GNB: SB Combo, GF Combo, Sonic Break, Burst Strike, DS Combo, Fated Circle
8 Unique ST keys, 3 Unique AoE keys


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oGCD differences
Per minute

DRK: 4x Edge/4x Flood, 1 Ad, 1 CNS, 2 Plunge, 1 BW
9 keystrokes, 5/6 Unique keys
Potency: (550*4) + 220 + 495 + (220*2)
Total: 3355

PLD: 2x SW, 2x Cos, 2x Inter, 1x Fof 1x Requis
8 keystrokes, 5 Unique keys
Potency: (370+462.5) + (295+368.75) + (250*2) + 550
Total: 2,546.25

WAR: ~3x Inf, 2x UH, ~1 Ons
~6 keystrokes, 2 Unique keys, 1 Situational key
Potency: (~1375*~3) + (495*2)
Total: 5115

GNB: 6x Cont, 2x BF, 1x BwS, 2xRD , 1x NM
11 keystrokes, 5 Unique keys
Potency: (840+1008) + (800+960) + 780 + (240*2)
Potency: 4868

Additional 90/2Min buttons
DRK: LS, DE, SE
3 Unique keys, 1.83 keystrokes per min
Potency: 2800 + (330*5) + 330
Total Average per minute: 1400 + 1100 + 220
2720

PLD:

WAR: IR, Ons
1 Unique key, 0.33 keystrokes per min
Potency: ~4840 + 220
Total Average per minute: 3,226.66 + 146.66
3372.66 (Cannot crit or direct hit)

GNB: BF
Potency: ~360
1 Unique key, 0.33 keystrokes per min
Total Average per minute:
240

Additonal defensives used for optimal offensive play
DRK: 1 TBN every minute
PLD:
WAR: Venegance every 2 minutes
GNB:


Total potency gained ontop of GCD via oGCD attacks (and for whatever reason buff oGCDs) per minute average

DRK: 6075 (Blood gain from BW not calculated)
PLD: 2,546.25
WAR: 8,487.66 (7497.66 pot that cannot Crit or Dhit and 7,277.66 of which is Inner Chaos/Fell Cleave)
GNB: 5,108

DRK: 12 keys, 10.83 oGCD CPM
PLD: 12 keys, 8 oGCD CPM
WAR: ~9 keys, ~7.33 oGCD CPM
GNB: 14 keys, 11.33 oGCD CPM

TLDR: If you're gonna take a dump on DRK; maybe play the class first. :confused:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

TLDR: If you're gonna take a dump on DRK; maybe play the class first. :confused:

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It was never about average damage more about but what a DRK was doing. During every minute a Paladin is hitting 12 unique keys with the majority being different gcd keys. In comparison, in most minutes the Dark is only hitting 9 unique keys with the majority being ogcd keys.

Also your DRK and WAR potency numbers are inflated because you just added the numbers from the Fell Cleaves and Bloodspillers when factoring the damage gain from those two buffs while also leaving out the 50% increase in damage to Holy Spirit and (access to) Confiteor from using Requiscat.

Is there any particular reason that after using Delirium, Bloodspiller only generates 200 mana, while Quietus generates 500? It seems like an odd distinction.

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Originally Posted by SacrificialToast

Is there any particular reason that after using Delirium, Bloodspiller only generates 200 mana, while Quietus generates 500? It seems like an odd distinction.

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Supposedly it's so each use of Bloodspiller will restore the same amount of MP overall as using your 123 combo, but that explanation seems like post-hoc rationalization to me (it also ignores Quietus entirely, but eh). I'm still partial to my own hypothesis, which is that the MP Restoration effects of Bloodspiller and Quietus are flipped, and that Quietus is actually supposed to be restoring 200 MP per target hit while Bloodspiller is actually supposed to be restoring a flat 500 MP. But unless this actually gets addressed with 5.1, it's anyone's guess what the heck is going on there.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I'm still partial to my own hypothesis, which is that the MP Restoration effects of Bloodspiller and Quietus are flipped, and that Quietus is actually supposed to be restoring 200 MP per target hit while Bloodspiller is actually supposed to be restoring a flat 500 MP. But unless this actually gets addressed with 5.1, it's anyone's guess what the heck is going on there.

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I wish that was the case, it would make a lot of sense. In PvP Quietus generates mp per target hit instead of just a flat rate like in PvE (which I don't really understand). I hope it is a "bug" or they just decide to make quietus generate mp per target hit instead of having a flat rate because it doesn't feel good to use at all in big pulls.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It was never about average damage more about but what a DRK was doing. During every minute a Paladin is hitting 12 unique keys with the majority being different gcd keys. In comparison, in most minutes the Dark is only hitting 9 unique keys with the majority being ogcd keys.

Also your DRK and WAR potency numbers are inflated because you just added the numbers from the Fell Cleaves and Bloodspillers when factoring the damage gain from those two buffs while also leaving out the 50% increase in damage to Holy Spirit and (access to) Confiteor from using Requiscat.

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The point is that DRK is not lacking in keys because it happens to not play like PLD. It has a simpler GCD rotation because its focus, and has always been, on its oGCD economy and its damage reflects that. Pressing 1 2 3 (4) (5 5 5) is not more inherently interesting than 1ab2ac3ad1ad2 3 1 2 3. DRK is now a burst class and its design of optimal double weave windows into downtime reflects that. DRK could use 1 or 2 more things to do spice up its downtime. PLD is inflexible and suffers a slow GCD crawl. WAR has a worse off downtime and only has 1 real oGCD with only 1 more combo ender to press. GNB is hard railed rotation that hates anything happening during their GF windows.

I have no idea why we're adding in GCD buffs into things between the classes (people seem to leave out BW and Delirium in previous posts when bringing up this point) but I'll bite. Requiscat gives 3300 potency total. Subtract the RA + 2 Atonement it replaces and that's a 1050 net gain, bringing PLD up to 3,696.25. I put in potency to further illustrate where DRKs focus lies. WARs is 90% IR and Infuriate which is just enhancement to it's 98% GCD gameplay and performance.

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Originally Posted by SacrificialToast

Is there any particular reason that after using Delirium, Bloodspiller only generates 200 mana, while Quietus generates 500? It seems like an odd distinction.

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Bloodspillers MP gain in delirium is just to balance with the 600mp gain you would've gained from SE combo (200mp per gcd average). Quietus I have no idea why it's 500 but I imagine it's to make the skill not completely lackluster. A 200MP gain over Stalwart Combo.