*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also I am not so sure about her "killing" by sundering. Every being was sundered...if sundering kills then nothing would be left alive thus no new life could have been reborn. Emet talks about sundering by just making a copy of Ryne. Bascially how I see it: The Ancient person was bascially split into 14 people. Each one of them less powerful than before but still with their memories intact. After all we see on the First that people had knowledge of the Final days and the sundering (cave painting). Or am I missing some ingame information where we got told that sundering kills?

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You're not, but it is an extremely weird concept that doesn't really have anything resembling accurate real-world analogues. Because of that, people try to relate it to the closest things they can find and treating it like that. And if 'Sappho got split into fourteen confused lesbians' means that what we knew as Sappho no longer exists... well, you could make the argument that Sappho died. (Incidentally, you can make a reverse assertion about the Rejoinings; if the First was rejoined, would we say that Runar died to it, because what we knew as Runar is gone?)

Personally, I think it's more equivalent to asexual reproduction through division; one being splits to form fourteen beings. But that... also doesn't really answer the philosophical questions, because we can't exactly ask lichen about its continued consciousness and sense of self.

Although, with all that said, one of your questions does have an answer; when Emet-Selch was talking to us about the cave paintings in Rak'tika, he mentions that they were done after the sundering, through the hazy recollections of the sundered people. So there was some continuity of knowledge, it's just left unclear as to how much.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also I am not so sure about her "killing" by sundering. Every being was sundered...if sundering kills then nothing would be left alive thus no new life could have been reborn. Emet talks about sundering by just making a copy of Ryne. Bascially how I see it: The Ancient person was bascially split into 14 people. Each one of them less powerful than before but still with their memories intact. After all we see on the First that people had knowledge of the Final days and the sundering (cave painting). Or am I missing some ingame information where we got told that sundering kills?

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I think there is a question of how the sundering worked, Emets Explanation in Shadowbringers used Ryne as an example, but I wonder if that was just a representation to what she did to the source. There are significant grounds to say the ancient were wiped out bar the unsundered because, no ancient remains alive in the present bar those unsundered. The closest to an ancient would be a midlander Hyur, but I suspect if Hydealyn's sundering did in fact kill everyone, then she used creation magick to recreate life afterwards, or she only spared the new life concepts the Ascians had already built and instead imbued said life with the sundered souls. We Know this is indeed possible and given that in the montage she withdrew her sword prior to sundering, I suspect she did kill all of the ancients then sundered everything and then placed those souls within the new life. Its certainly something that can be read from the montge and modern etherys.

If the ancient had indeed survived, then they should be around somewhere. We know from Elpis that some of the things they created survived until the modern day. There is the option that they were wiped out on the source and the first, but if that was so you would expect that there would be mythos and legends about them. Furthermore i think the Sundering or the final days shattered Etherys in more ways than one as Amaurot is at the bottom of the Ocean (unless of course it was a floaty Elpis like city and we know Elpis itself is still around as i think it is the islands that float above Garlemald / Sea of clouds. So if Amaurot was not a city built in the air then it means the very shape of continents/ seas changed either in the sundering or the final days. The later would make sense given Zodiark took control of the Aether rivers to weave the thick Aether shield that protected the Star. Could also be that he was also mass creating concepts to populate post saved Etherys which ended with his imprisonment and sundering.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

There are significant grounds to say the ancient were wiped out bar the unsundered because, no ancient remains alive in the present bar those unsundered.

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For what it's worth, the actual explanation given for this is that the Ancient ruins on the Source were destroyed over time by the Calamities. All they had to survive on the First was uncountable years of neglect and natural erosion, and even that did a number on Amaurot, although Anamnesis Anyder managed to stay intact.

On the Source? They had to suffer through six different planetwide cataclysms, including a great flood, an unending blizzard, and colossal windstorms. It's not that the Sundering hit the Source any harder; it's that afterwards, the Ascians hit the Source with enough force that they likely wiped the planet clean of any conclusive evidence of their own society. Which is... kinda tragic, actually.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Wanting to advance, prosper and reduce suffering was not the issue. Refusing to accept the inevitability of suffering was the issue.

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That's clearly a major issue given the further mankind advances the less suffering they'll face. The more rare suffering becomes the less inevitable it will be (or at least seem). Eventually humanity will simply reach the state the Ancients were at before, if they don't destroy themselves or are destroyed by something else before that point.

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What lie is there in stating that they have not solved the crisis and that an unrestrained Zodiark would not save them?

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Because whatever arguments she made, they were formulated while hiding the truth of the crisis. They cannot know the issue is unresolved unless Venat tells them why it isn't.

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She should have fled and left the rest of humanity to its fate? To where? To another planet unprotected by Zodiark? And how?

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She should have done exactly as Midgardsormr did, argue for sedition, and take whatever followers she had and left. As for how, she devised a plan for that very purpose already.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also I am not so sure about her "killing" by sundering. Every being was sundered...if sundering kills then nothing would be left alive thus no new life could have been reborn. Emet talks about sundering by just making a copy of Ryne. Bascially how I see it: The Ancient person was bascially split into 14 people. Each one of them less powerful than before but still with their memories intact. After all we see on the First that people had knowledge of the Final days and the sundering (cave painting). Or am I missing some ingame information where we got told that sundering kills?

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The Ancients lived for millennia at least, while the max lifespan of Sundered beings is something like 100-120 years. If you take a person that has already lived thousands of years and cut their lifespan down to 100 years, they really should instantly die.

Besides, consider this analogy: If someone were to punch you so hard that you lost all your memories (this is directly stated in the cave, with only the barest half-remembrances remaining) and receive serious permanent mental and physical damage, and you died in the hospital hours later compared to the full 90-year life you could have lived, in what way did that person not murder you?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I would be unable to even entertain the thought of bringing back people I loved, because it would mean I'd still be rooted to the past, nothing more than a fool who can't move on with their life. You live, you love, you lose, these are things everybody has to deal with. To deny loss is to deny the growth that comes with it, to deny change.

As for the Ancients, they seemed to believe (or at least it's what Emet and the Ascians were pushing) that once they returned everyone everything would go back to normal. They didn't want their society to change, and after cheating death like that once, you know they'd do it again and again with each threat that popped up. They would not learn from the pain and loss.

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This is a strange equivalency to make. What parent wouldn't jump at the chance to bring back their child, what widow their spouse, etc.? Especially if they'd been lost suddenly and under tragic circumstances as would've been the case with the Final Days. I won't assume you've never lost anyone close to you, but this is an uncommon attitude in my experience. You adapt because you have no choice (the Ancients thought they did). Time may lessen the pain, but the loss is with you forever and you never get over it. My mother's one of the strongest people I've ever known who didn't believe in dwelling in the past, but several years after my brother died she would still have moments she'd collapse into tears in mourning. I've said many times before, I'm simply not going to judge grieving people.

As for the rest, the thought occurred to me that after 75% of the Ancients had sacrificed themselves to stop the Final Days and restore life to the star, it's possible a decent amount of those left would've been the 'chaff' of society. Those lacking in fortitude, content to live off the good will of others, and seeking handouts from Zodiark similar to what we saw in the post-Elpis cutscene. Many of the 'best' of them are the ones who likely would've been the first to sign up, like Hythlodaeus.

I think it’s also important to note that based on some of the side quests in Elpis, the ancients weren’t exactly that afraid of death, with it actually being noted as a good thing and portrayed as it not being the end. Their views most likely only changed because of the final days aka something that shouldn’t even had happened were it not for Meteion and her terrible views. In the end they just wanted to reverse the event that shouldn’t have happened in the first place, very similar to how Ironworks wanted to reverse the black rose incident and they messed with time and put an entire timeline at risk to do so. If the protagonists can do it why can’t the ancients?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

As for the rest, the thought occurred to me that after 75% of the Ancients had sacrificed themselves to stop the Final Days and restore life to the star, it's possible a decent amount of those left would've been the 'chaff' of society. Those lacking in fortitude, content to live off the good will of others, and seeking handouts from Zodiark similar to what we saw in the post-Elpis cutscene. Many of the 'best' of them are the ones who likely would've been the first to sign up, like Hythlodaeus.

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That's an extremely wild reach to make.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think it’s also important to note that based on some of the side quests in Elpis, the ancients weren’t exactly that afraid of death, with it actually being noted as a good thing and portrayed as it not being the end. Their views most likely only changed because of the final days aka something that shouldn’t even had happened were it not for Meteion and her terrible views. In the end they just wanted to reverse the event that shouldn’t have happened in the first place, very similar to how Ironworks wanted to reverse the black rose incident and they messed with time and put an entire timeline at risk to do so. If the protagonists can do it why can’t the ancients?

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I feel like the difference is the context in which both groups performed their actions.

Zodiark's first two actions were fueled by willing sacrifices and is itself a heroic effort to save the planet. The Third action would have been performed after life has already been returned to the planet and the calamity was over and would have cost the lives of the unwilling. Though I wish we had more clarity on the amount of time that took place in between Zodiark doing things, how much society changed in the face of Zodiark, and what the state of the planet and life was at the time.

The Ironworks intended to send a time-and-space machine into the past to an alternate shard amid a society that had completely crumbled and the knowledge that now there's nothing preventing the Ascians from completing the remaining rejoinings and destroying reality as they knew it for everybody. That timeline looks better off in the short term because Midgardsormr wakes up and decides to help them out and their timeline wasn't deleted, but in the long term, the Ascians will still probably win and Zodiark will be reborn down the line.

Their whole point was to throw a light into the past in order for there to be a different timeline that they will not benefit from, that will not have to go through what they did and I think it is that part which makes them heroic. People keep leaning in on the "possible timeline destruction" line from the Tales of the Shadows, but that's obviously not what ended up happening and isn't even brought up in the main game.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

That's an extremely wild reach to make.

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I don’t think it’s any more wild than people saying the ancients would continue to keep sacrificing and sacrificing when there’s little evidence of that.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

That's an extremely wild reach to make.

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It's funny you should say that since it's the closest I've come to agreeing with the other side of the debate. However, if you want to argue that all of the Ancients were good who didn't deserve their fate I'm here for it!

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

That's an extremely wild reach to make.




I feel like the difference is the context in which both groups performed their actions.

Zodiark's first two actions were fueled by willing sacrifices and is itself a heroic effort to save the planet. The Third action would have been performed after life has already been returned to the planet and the calamity was over and would have cost the lives of the unwilling. Though I wish we had more clarity on the amount of time that took place in between Zodiark doing things, how much society changed in the face of Zodiark, and what the state of the planet and life was at the time.

The Ironworks intended to send a time-and-space machine into the past to an alternate shard amid a society that had completely crumbled and the knowledge that now there's nothing preventing the Ascians from completing the remaining rejoinings and destroying reality as they knew it for everybody. That timeline looks better off in the short term because Midgardsormr wakes up and decides to help them out and their timeline wasn't deleted, but in the long term, the Ascians will still probably win and Zodiark will be reborn down the line.

Their whole point was to throw a light into the past in order for there to be a different timeline that they will not benefit from, that will not have to go through what they did and I think it is that part which makes them heroic. People keep leaning in on the "possible timeline destruction" line from the Tales of the Shadows, but that's obviously not what ended up happening and isn't even brought up in the main game.

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It may not have ended up happening because “lul plot armor” but it was still a possibility and one they knew of so my point still stands. Again, they were willing to sacrifice an entire timeline in order to bring someone back. The story has constantly been saying don’t stay tied to the past and move towards the future, yet it’s exactly looking to the past and being stuck in the past that allowed them to do such a deed. It’s conflicting themes there. Especially when it’s kind of a frowned upon thing when the ancients do it. But when the protagonists do it it’s deemed as okay and heroic.