Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Also wanted to state a point in another rebuttal you grouped in with mine. Since this isn't exactly a Shadowbringers spoiler: Hydaelyn is not weakened so much by trying to help us, but her power state is weakened because of calamities so it's by proxy and in her interests. Because from what I gather from understanding the situation, each calamity is a convergence. So it's probably putting her back to power levels prior to the Sundering- not that I am exactly enthused by the loss of life.

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No its made quite clear that she used quite a lot of power to save us against Ultima. Even Lahabrea comments on that.

About the truth: Yes she has not told us everything correctly. But that does not mean that Minfilia, by becoming part of her, did not learn the full truth and still choose to help her.

@Lauront: I can understand that it would be dull to you but not everything needs to be nuanced. I for example would find it bad that both turn out to be grey or negative to us humans. It already happened quite often in FF games that the heros slay the gods, so I would find that not suprising or great at all. And I would find it strange to show her in such a positive light all the time (minus the one where she seemingly was showing her biased view on their creation) and then turn her around and let us destroy her.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You can tell that in spite of all the obstacles he has now faced, Elidibus is more determined than ever.

As an aside, I'm intrigued by what this "Emissary" title of his truly amounts to, though. He's held it since before Zodiark was even summoned, and the way he refers to it, he places an emphasis on being able to direct the course of events. Maybe he just means having the sort of influence on events expected of an ambassador, as he may once have been.

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Absolutely. He understands the stakes clearly, and has brought that fluidity to the front, alternately attempting to kill the WoL himself and shortly thereafter yielding the body he did it with out of an abundance of caution. He almost feels reckless in light of these recent events, which could be forgiven, considering the haste with which it seems their millennia-long plan is unraveling, but surely they, and Elidibus in particular, didn't get this far by being this reactionary. Surely they've suffered setbacks in the past, such as the loss of the Thirteenth to Darkness. While I'm hedging on what exactly he thinks he can accomplish by setting Warriors against Warrior again, I think you're right that what we see come time will be some kind of subversion of that concept. There's still certainly more that he's banking on that what we've seen of him thus far. It makes me wonder what he also has planned for the Source, lurking on the Moonbase again, which brings me to...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Then, onto Zenos, although he may want to subjugate one of the gods, he still has to reach them. One is dormant, so perhaps he'll want to see to their re-awakening, yet in the other's case, she's nestled in the Aetherial Sea, which is notoriously difficult to enter, much less navigate. Unless they're planning on putting Construct 7 and its considerable teleportation powers to use, given that it was acquired by Gabranth, I'm wondering how he intends to pull this off since one is dormant for now and the other... unreachable.

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Zodiark is unreachable through conventional means. But then, a lot of calamitous events have come as a result of ancient magicks being tampered with by the Empire. Gabranth is of a mind to use Tartarus to penetrate the planet, but were Zenos to become aware of it (and he certainly might, as his legion originally laid waste to Dalmasca), he may set his sights on the Moon, where Zodiark is suggested to be imprisoned. Dalamud, while still an artificial Allagan satellite, was a celestial object in orbit around that same moon before a Bahamut-influenced Nael managed to bring it down. And the tool with which it ascended and acted in concert, the Crystal Tower, is very much present and plot-relevant now. Not to say that he's going to bring the Moon itself down, but the structure is a massive aetherial focus well-suited to the task ahead of him. This bit is pure speculation, but I'm of a mind that if Zenos intends to enter into some kind of union with Zodiark, he'll court him in much the same way that Bahamut courted Nael, seemingly immune or at least resistant to the tempering power of primals as the Resonant makes him. As to whether Zenos's "influence is much greater than" Zodiark's... well, I think that would be fairly generous to Zenos for the sake of the narrative they seem to be pushing him toward, but it seems like the more logical sequence of events to reach that end, given the information we now have to work with.

Or, more likely, this is just a major reach and they end up coming out of left field in tying it altogether.

I'm rooting for Gaius, but something tells me it's not going to go his way. If it does, it'll be because the path was cleared for him by someone who still has the power to block that path, and I don't know if he can conscience that.

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Originally Posted by Cont13

Zodiark is unreachable through conventional means. But then, a lot of calamitous events have come as a result of ancient magicks being tampered with by the Empire. Gabranth is of a mind to use Tartarus to penetrate the planet, but were Zenos to become aware of it (and he certainly might, as his legion originally laid waste to Dalmasca), he may set his sights on the Moon, where Zodiark is suggested to be imprisoned. Dalamud, while still an artificial Allagan satellite, was a celestial object in orbit around that same moon before a Bahamut-influenced Nael managed to bring it down. And the tool with which it ascended and acted in concert, the Crystal Tower, is very much present and plot-relevant now. Not to say that he's going to bring the Moon itself down, but the structure is a massive aetherial focus well-suited to the task ahead of him. This bit is pure speculation, but I'm of a mind that if Zenos intends to enter into some kind of union with Zodiark, he'll court him in much the same way that Bahamut courted Nael, seemingly immune or at least resistant to the tempering power of primals as the Resonant makes him. As to whether Zenos's "influence is much greater than" Zodiark's... well, I think that would be fairly generous to Zenos for the sake of the narrative they seem to be pushing him toward, but it seems like the more logical sequence of events to reach that end, given the information we now have to work with.

Or, more likely, this is just a major reach and they end up coming out of left field in tying it altogether.

I'm rooting for Gaius, but something tells me it's not going to go his way. If it does, it'll be because the path was cleared for him by someone who still has the power to block that path, and I don't know if he can conscience that.

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Ten characters.

Zenos's exact words were that he intends for himself and the WoL to "Gorge upon their strength". Unlike Nael, I don't think he'd be content with becoming a slave to a creature of man's making.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

No its made quite clear that she used quite a lot of power to save us against Ultima. Even Lahabrea comments on that.

About the truth: Yes she has not told us everything correctly. But that does not mean that Minfilia, by becoming part of her, did not learn the full truth and still choose to help her.

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Correct, in part of that sense, she used what power she had AT that time. I'm saying however - her power was REDUCED to what she had before because of the Calamities. Which is by proxy of Ascian interference (in causing said Calamities). Basically, I'm pointing out that you're looking at a symptom as a cause.

It doesn't mean Minfilia learned the whole truth either. I'm not assuming she did due to the nature of how the story was played out in telling us the origins of the conflict.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Ten characters.

Zenos's exact words were that he intends for himself and the WoL to "Gorge upon their strength". Unlike Nael, I don't think he'd be content with becoming a slave to a creature of man's making.

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That's what I was referring to.

Zenos could, in theory, establish a psychic/mental/magical/etc. connection with Zodiark along the lines of what happened between Nael and Bahamut, but be able to resist being enslaved by him thanks to the Resonant. The main issues with that theory being that we neither know how strong his Resonant ability truly is (immortality is pretty OP to begin with), or if it's truly impossible to override the will of beings on the level of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, as Emet suggests. Is it truly impossible, or was there just never a soul before, whole or sundered, with the sheer will to shrug off a god's influence while still partaking of its power?

I'd like to think that it's more complicated than that, and I'm sure it is, but the way things are shaping up right now suggests that he's going to start plumbing uncharted depths in regards to what is and isn't within the purview of two eldest primals... which even then is taking an Ascian at his word, regardless of how forthcoming he was on other topics.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Correct, in part of that sense, she used what power she had AT that time. I'm saying however - her power was REDUCED to what she had before because of the Calamities. Which is by proxy of Ascian interference (in causing said Calamities). Basically, I'm pointing out that you're looking at a symptom as a cause.

It doesn't mean Minfilia learned the whole truth either. I'm not assuming she did due to the nature of how the story was played out in telling us the origins of the conflict.

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Oh I agree that she lost huge amount of her powers thanks to the calamities but even after that she continued to protect us at the risk of losing much more. In the end the story told us that the split happened at the will of her summoners and thus her. They probably wanted to split the power of creation that much so that such a horrible calamity (created through their fears) might not happen again. And I am sure (or hopefuly) that those summoners went about this a bit more intelligent than the Ascians and did not create another being that now sucks the aether of even weaker beings. That kinda imo would go against their point of protecting the future.

So apparently, doing all 4 roles quest drops a pretty big reveal in a 5th quest, about the mysterious 5th member that you can see sometimes in the other cutscenes.

This thread shares the detail if any are curious.

Regarding Zodiark/Hydalien:

Why is it that Hydalien loses power after all?

If she is just a 'normal' primal 'somewhere' on the source, wouldn't she just be able to feed on all that aether coming in through rejoinings and still be as strong as before the split?

Sure, rejoinings also empower Zodiark, but I don't see why that would cost Hydalien power, after all we know now.

Soooooo... maybe Hydalien just doesn't consume Aether and is slowly running low (by creating/guiding/defending the WoL)?
Will she just fade away like the rebuild of Amaurot?

The great flaw of the Ascian's plans is that they failed to see....

The long term effects of Zodiark being the will of the world. It will be a eternal cycle of sacrificing 3/4 of the world's population just to satisfy his needs and it will be a constant one with the people the Ascians want to bring back having to always sacrifice 3/4 of their own population the sacrifice new life on the planet to sacrifice again then return to sacrificing themselves again.


However, it is expected they fail to see this because they admit that Zodiark did Temper their wills so another consequence is also that all life return to the world may always be temper into being Servants of Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Oh I agree that she lost huge amount of her powers thanks to the calamities but even after that she continued to protect us at the risk of losing much more. In the end the story told us that the split happened at the will of her summoners and thus her. They probably wanted to split the power of creation that much so that such a horrible calamity (created through their fears) might not happen again. And I am sure (or hopefuly) that those summoners went about this a bit more intelligent than the Ascians and did not create another being that now sucks the aether of even weaker beings. That kinda imo would go against their point of protecting the future.

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As a point of interest.

I find it also interesting that Hydaelyn mentioned being at harmony with the existence of Zodiark and only counteracted when "more power was desired" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu8j5_pzzU Really odd and in some ways convenient. And despite the Ascians involvement in rejoinings, interesting to note that it WAS Hydaelyn herself that told everyone to eliminate the Ascians even though it would cause an imbalance and flood of light like it did on the source. It ended up being in the Ascians interest to do it. That's why I find both sides to be sketchy. Also in other threads where people were upset about how much the Ancients were into conforming - and using that as a means to show how "Bad" they were aren't even looking at the current lore of their own people which may also have some rather oppressive beliefs among the races. I do believe in our right to exist but the way people were going about it - I find that the pots are calling kettles

There was that phrase about the winner gets to write history