White Mage: You should DPS and here's why.

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Originally Posted by Grefia

If you can't win a fight with traditional roles, then maybe you should be looking at who is falling short in their job.

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Not about "can't win", it's about "win faster". Obviously if the problem is "can't win" you should be more considerate.

Like someone said, things die quicker with 4 DPS than 3. (We're being generous and counting tank as one here)

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Or Glad tanks, who don't really get a "tanking stance" until 40, whereas I believe Warriors get theirs much earlier (I could be wrong here, tho!).

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Warrior gets Defiance at level 30, Paladin gets Shield Oath at level 40. However, there's a reason for this.

Warrior's only mitigation skill during that point is Foresight. Testing shows this mitigates physical damage by a measly 5%, and Bloodbath's use is minuscule at best. Their best mitigation tool pre-Defiance is actually Convalescence.

Paladin however gets Rampart super early, which mitigates all damage by 20% for 20 seconds, and they have Convalescene which increases healing received by 30% for 20 seconds. They can also cross-class Foresight (which every Paladin should have) and Stoneskin.

Warrior gets their tank stance earlier than Paladin because they need it to even the playing field. Paladin gets a DPS stance instead because they have all the tools necessary to survive. Shield Oath at that point would've just been overkill.

Crossposting from the General Discussion thread for feedback:

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Alright, I'm going to humor you. Let's say an average mob is alive for 30 seconds. This is pretty generous. Let's do some napkin math.
Assuming all GCDs are 2.50 recast

PLD: Halone combo (150 > 200 > 260, total potency 610) takes 7.50 seconds. Include Circle of Scorn (250) and Spirits Within (300 at best)
2990 pot/30sec
(2392 under Shield Oath)

WAR: Storm's Eye combo (150 > 190 [all following +10%] > 297 [all following +10% again], total pot 637) > Butcher combo (total pot 762) takes 7.50 seconds
2924pot/30sec
(2193 under Defiance)

DRG: Heavy Thrust (170; all following +10%) > Phlebotomize (319) > Impulse Drive (198) > Disembowel (232, all following +10% again) > Chaos Thrust (193.6 + 242) > Full Thrust combo (786) > Heavy Thrust (205) > Full Thrust combo (786)
3131pot/30sec

MNK: (I'd rather not try to butcher my way through reasoning out 30 seconds; if someone else would like to, feel free)

BLM: (Same)

BRD: Bloodletter (150) > Straight Shot (140) > Windbite (330) > Venomous (310) > Heavy Heavy Heavy (450) > Bloodletter (150) > Heavy Heavy (300) > Windbite/Venomous (640, being generous and counting fully even though we've exceeded 30s by now) > Heavy Heavy (300) > Bloodletter (150)
2920pot/30sec

SMN: Bio II (350) > Miasma (300) > Bio (240) > Fester (300) > Thunder (240) > Ruin Ruin Ruin (240) > Fester (300) > Ruin Ruin (160) > Bio (240; generously counting fully) > Fester (300)
*Not included is Garuda Wind Blade (1000 pot in 30s); unsure of the direct translation for "master" potency but make a mental note of it.
2670pot/30s

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***Healer territory; all potencies are +10% via Cleric Stance***
******

WHM: Aero II (231) > Aero (220) > Fluid Aura (165; not always applicable due to knockback) > Thunder (240) > Cleric off, 2 GCDs > Aero II (231) > Stone II (187) > Aero (220) > Thunder (240) > Cleric off, 1 GCD
1734pot/30s

SCH: Bio II (385) > Miasma (330) > Bio (264) > Energy Drain (165) > Thunder (264) > do do do, do some heals I guess ok now maybe a Stoneskin, read a book > Energy Drain (165) > lalalala
1573pot/30s

Or, assuming we went a little more DPS-y (and still allowing fo' heals)

SCH: Bio II (385) > Miasma (330) > Bio (264) > Energy Drain (165) > Thunder (264) > Ruin RuinII (176) > Energy Drain (165) > Cleric off, 2-3 GCDs for heals or whatever > Ruin Ruin II (176) > Energy Drain (165)
2090pot/30s

*****
*****

Now as mentioned, this is napkin math. Not hard science, not hard experience, just light on-paper theorycraft. Obviously discounting a lot of buffing non-GCDs for the "true" DPS classes. But you can't just say that we're "insignificant" for damage. I'm still "allowing" for heals in those rotations and we're not far under a tank, who is himself worth 2/3rds of a "true" DPS.

I just hope I haven't wasted the past hour number crunching only to get laughed out of the room.

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Originally Posted by Tanaya

Warrior gets Defiance at level 30, Paladin gets Shield Oath at level 40. However, there's a reason for this.

Warrior's only mitigation skill during that point is Foresight. Testing shows this mitigates physical damage by a measly 5%, and Bloodbath's use is minuscule at best. Their best mitigation tool pre-Defiance is actually Convalescence.

Paladin however gets Rampart super early, which mitigates all damage by 20% for 20 seconds, and they have Convalescene which increases healing received by 30% for 20 seconds. They can also cross-class Foresight (which every Paladin should have) and Stoneskin.

Warrior gets their tank stance earlier than Paladin because they need it to even the playing field. Paladin gets a DPS stance instead because they have all the tools necessary to survive. Shield Oath at that point would've just been overkill.

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Not going to argue with you on when each should get their stance or whatever, but I'm personally of the opinion that both Paladins and Warriors should get their abilities earlier, or at a faster rate. Glads, especially, have a very hard time holding AoE threat until much later than Warriors, whereas Warriors have to depend on pure RNG at points to not take so much damage that they overstress the healer. I guess what I'm getting at is that it feels "bumpy" with those two classes.

I still think scholars should get Leeches at 30.

Healer = Healing. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Crossposting from the General Discussion thread for feedback:

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Just wanted to note that you should include Shadow Flare in SMN/SCH rotations. I'm not sure why, but it hits as hard as Bio II despite reading as 10 less potency. It should be Swiftcasted pretty early in the fight for a SCH.

Here's a SS I took yesterday to show it. These were both non-crits: http://i.imgur.com/mwMPcwO.png

Oh absolutely, and I do it myself. This is just really dumbed down on all parts to show that we're not THAT far behind if we so choose to. This is more directly answering the "healer DPS is inconsequential" element than the "healers shouldn't DPS" element. Going just by potency Shadow Flare is slightly better than Bio/Thunder (250 vs 240).

Aside: SCH doing the same thing I listed for SMN (so completely excising heals from the "rotation") and subbing Energy Drain for Fester is 2442 pot/30s.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

...but I'm personally of the opinion that both Paladins and Warriors should get their abilities earlier, or at a faster rate. Glads, especially, have a very hard time holding AoE threat until much later than Warriors, whereas Warriors have to depend on pure RNG at points to not take so much damage that they overstress the healer. I guess what I'm getting at is that it feels "bumpy" with those two classes.

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Paladin doesn't really have trouble holding AoE threat. It's not faceroll like Warrior, but I wouldn't call it difficult. Warrior simply frontloads their AoE threat with Overpower spam and occasionally uses Flash. Paladin has to use Flash within their rotation. Either way, if both tanks tab-targets their Enmity combo on all mobs, it's essentially a non-issue.

I'm not sure what you mean by Warrior has to rely on RNG. Granted, Warrior's abilities need to be retuned. I personally believe their Wrath abilities shouldn't take away all of their stacks, since it ties strongly to their ability to survive.

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Originally Posted by Tanaya

Paladin doesn't really have trouble holding AoE threat. It's not faceroll like Warrior, but I wouldn't call it difficult. Warrior simply frontloads their AoE threat with Overpower spam and occasionally uses Flash. Paladin has to use Flash within their rotation. Either way, if both tanks tab-targets their Enmity combo on all mobs, it's essentially a non-issue.

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Don't know when the last time you ran with a low-level tank was, but the only tanks that have been able to hold threat for me are ones I personally know, and even then they had trouble because Flash simply doesn't hold threat over direct damage and healing. Yes, the tank can hit the mobs, but it's a good deal more frustrating for Glad tanks at low levels (especially before they have any cross-class abilities, as I know a lot of new players are leveling their main class to 50 before cross-classing, and while we could argue that it's "poor play," these are people who don't even know what the forums are, so...). The tanks I run with on a regular basis have told me that I am one of the few WHM who rarely pull threat off them, so I don't think that it's me (could be wrong of course).

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I'm not sure what you mean by Warrior has to rely on RNG. Granted, Warrior's abilities need to be retuned. I personally believe their Wrath abilities shouldn't take away all of their stacks, since it ties strongly to their ability to survive.

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Speaking of very low levels, Marauders generally hold threat much better than Glads, but there are points (some of the mobs in Copperbell mines come to mind) where they just seem to take far, far more damage than a Glad would - and not just from one hit, but consistently. In terms of higher-level dungeons, I think the only place that really stands out for this is Stone Vigil, but that instance tears up both Jobs, so I think that's just a tuning issue, personally.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Don't know when the last time you ran with a low-level tank was, but the only tanks that have been able to hold threat for me are ones I personally know, and even then they had trouble because Flash simply doesn't hold threat over direct damage and healing. Yes, the tank can hit the mobs, but it's a good deal more frustrating for Glad tanks at low levels (especially before they have any cross-class abilities, as I know a lot of new players are leveling their main class to 50 before cross-classing, and while we could argue that it's "poor play," these are people who don't even know what the forums are, so...). The tanks I run with on a regular basis have told me that I am one of the few WHM who rarely pull threat off them, so I don't think that it's me (could be wrong of course).

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Paladin is my main job (check my sig), and I've played Gladiator a number of times when I rerolled characters or played through Beta. Never had a problem with holding threat through those levels. However, I've definitely had tanks who did. The problem though isn't the job itself, it's that they're new and haven't fully grasped the mechanics behind their job. Cross-Class skills help in this endeavor, especially DPS ones, but you definitely don't need them.

Circle of Scorn would be amazing during the low levels (And I don't believe it deserves a level 50 spot, myself), but Paladin has a pretty good MP pool and also Riot Blade. In the low levels, after your first Savage Blade combo, you can just spam Flash up to 3-4 times and by the time your DPS gets to the 2nd mob, the Gladiator's threat is pretty solid.

Marauders naturally take more damage on the simple basis that they don't have a shield or can utilize Rampart. The gap isn't severe though. Personally, I've only felt the discrepancy during Tam-Tara.