What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

Oh no Hermes opposes us, whatever shall we do to prove our case against him? Oh if only we could have some sort of power to show people events from the past. And if we only had some evidence that Meteion is still out there and traveling to the end of the universe, something like a crystal with tracking data about her.

Oh if also the shady events that happened inside Ktisis wouldn't question Hermes's character and integrity. Wiping the memory of a Convocation member with a machine that's apparently not within the law, from what Emet mentioned earlier when he heard about it?

But oh no, Hermes-senpai doesn't like us and we """"need"""" him for a haphazard "solution" that we know is not definitive and that will involve countless sacrifice. Oh no, there's no way he could be forced to cooperate and share his knowledge. Yeah, I guess we'll just let him brood while the world burns.

---

We're not trying to prove our case against Herrmes as Hermes already sided with Meteion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PawPaw

Not sure what this means. Are you implying that because she decided not to tell her people that they were about to face a world-ending catastrophe then it follows that there must not have been any way to save them from said catastrophe simply because she was of the opinion that they couldn't be saved? So because she couldn't think of a way herself, we should assume that the Convocation of Fourteen, the most brilliant minds of the time couldn't have either?

---

How do you get to that interpretation of my post? Theodric made a statement that I felt was not backed up the way he stated it. Read his post again, especially the phrase "by virtue of" and how he connects Venat's decision to the idea of there being viable alternative.

Quote:

---

There's nothing to be done, he's the only one who knows what Dynamis is weak against....except...he's not...and the scene just before this one showing us how to read memories is one we're clearly not supposed to think about after the fact.

---

If you feel that is Hermes' only potential contribution, I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not making that determination.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brinne

But then I'd assume that the rest of the team protested against having Hydaelyn be so obviously "bad," so the concept was split into two.

---

I've had the feeling all along that the Hydaelyn we got in EW was not what was originally intended and I suspect it's because someone other than Ishikawa voiced complaints about her being anything other than good. It could be the reason why she had to rewrite the script to be more 'acceptable' (and why the others believed the revisions were for the best). I would assume she revised as much as possible and what she couldn't was shrouded in a copious amount of gaslighting in an attempt to re-frame Venat's actions.

My only question would be, what was the original intention of Fandaniel if most of Venat's characterization was shifted to Hermes? It's an interesting theory though and certainly seems plausible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brinne

Oh, no worries and no need to apologize! Shocking though it may be, I wouldn't be here if I didn't enjoy discussion, lmao.

I actually enjoyed your earlier post re: Y'shtola and the Ea, and it reflected my general feelings about that scene - I wasn't a fan of the judgmental tone and the lack of empathy. The only "sacrifice" scene I felt was actually touching with G'raha's, in fact - because he did extend an understanding hand toward the Omicron, rather than that overture of "you failed" that colored the others - whatever the flavor text the Scions gave later about not being judgmental may be.

It's just that it's sort of funny that, in one context, Endwalker looks at a situation where someone says: "Continuing to reach for betterment will eventually lead to your ruin." "I don't care!" and it's framed as heroic; but in another one, it's misguided and used as a logical basis for wiping them out. Protagonist centric morality sure is something. It might be misguided to hope a heroic fantasy MMORPG would try to avoid it - but Shadowbringers gave me hope in that regard! I can't help it! It was so good and filled to the brim with genuine understanding and empathy!

---

Thanks :) glad you're enjoying yourself!
Indeed G'Raha and I would add Estinien were the two who had relevant dialogues before facing the dynamis whirlpool. Only they had a layer other than "I don't agree so you're wrong".
Shadowbringers did pave the way for a great story in my opinion as well. ShB 5.0 offered an interesting view and newfound depth to the world, out of the rigid frames of bad vs good.
This makes it even more saddening to see Endwalker, the conclusion of the 10years arc, as a wasted potential and regression.
Maybe if the previous expansion wasn't showing this much potential the current one wouldn't have felt like a let down. At least not to this intensity. Although I do not regret Shadowbringers of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

We're not trying to prove our case against Herrmes as Hermes already sided with Meteion.

---

But who gives a shit with Hermes siding with Meteion, I thought the point was he would get in the way of Venat telling the ancient society what happened and what's to come. That's what he would be "opposing".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

But who gives a shit with Hermes siding with Meteion, I thought the point was he would get in the way of Venat telling the ancient society what happened and what's to come. That's what he would be "opposing".

---

They are related. He could oppose because he sided with Meteion.

But the part of your post that I highlighted in bold is incorrect and probably impossible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

They are related. He could oppose because he sided with Meteion.

But the part of your post that I highlighted in bold is incorrect and probably impossible.

---

Then I don't really know what you're trying to get at. If you're not implying that Hermes would try to discredit Venat's story then are you suggesting Hermes would fight the rest of the ancient society on his own to make sure Meteion destroys them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

Then I don't really know what you're trying to get at. If you're not implying that Hermes would try to discredit Venat's story

---

He can't discredit Venat's story and he has no reason to.

Quote:

---

then are you suggesting Hermes would fight the rest of the ancient society on his own to make sure Meteion destroys them?

---

That is one possibility. At the very least, he has already allowed Meteion the freedom to do what she wanted, even if it poses a threat to them. It's why he wanted to erase his own memory in the first place, to prevent such possibilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

That is one possibility. At the very least, he has already allowed Meteion the freedom to do what she wanted, even if it poses a threat to them. It's why he wanted to erase his own memory in the first place, to prevent such possibilities.

---

But... why? He would get his ass handed to him by the entire Convocation, including unsundered Azem. The big reason why the Final Days happened was because ancient society was completely ignorant on what was going on so they didn't know how to deal with it, not because Hermes himself was any sort of threat.

Hermes couldn't even contain a single Emet-Selch for very long. I struggle to see what kind of threat he could pose that would be meaningful enough to justify not telling the world leaders about the incoming disaster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

But... why? He would get his ass handed to him by the entire Convocation, including unsundered Azem. The big reason why the Final Days happened was because ancient society was completely ignorant on what was going on so they didn't know how to deal with it, not because Hermes himself was any sort of threat.

---

The point is he is someone that can be of use. Why make him potentially be reluctant to help if not outright oppose them?