Regarding the Revision of the Prohibited Activities and Account Penalty Policy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I feel like that's an unfair analogy, because an individual person coming up and saying that to you is a lot more threatening than having those rules (even poorly) laid out in a document like this.

---

That's actually the point of the analogy. You don't feel the threat because it isn't someone coming up to you, which is why you're so much more complacent about it. The most dangerous threats are the ones you don't even realize are threats, because you're all that more likely to ignore them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

-snip-

---

The video in question puts forth the argument "FFXIV has gone full blown SJW" at its face, by having the thumbnail and title be as such, while it may contain more nuanced opinions, the front end argument is "FFXIV has gone full blown SJW" and one can disagree with such arguments because they used such a term as SJW. Because at this point SJW is such a broad, overarching, ran into the ground term. By all accounts, I could call you an SJW and be on the money. So the argument is built on the shaky ground of such a broad, vague term that the argument itself is weak. So you CAN disagree with the argument because they used such a term, because said term is so vague at this point, that arguing something has gone "SJW" is could mean just about anything..

This also does not mean the fact they reject all of his opinions, means they think FFXIV is a bad game, like you tried to pretty underhandedly suggest. It just means they reject that person's opinions and again, they could easily agree with someone like MrHappy that FFXIV is a good game.

The issue however is the fact that they decided to load the front end with a divisive term and due to this, one can perceive that the argument is built around this. Personally, I would have gone with a more nuanced title and such but it seems they wanted to charge a certain portion of people up and going by the comments, yeah it looks like they were squarely aiming at that crowd and hit that crowd. It is bad form to lead your argument not only with such a charged title but such a basically meaningless term.

Or to boil all this down to a single phrase. It is bad to start your argument by poisoning the well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

The video in question puts forth the argument "FFXIV has gone full blown SJW" at its face, by having the thumbnail and title be as such, while it may contain more nuanced opinions, the front end argument is "FFXIV has gone full blown SJW" and one can disagree with such arguments because they used such a term as SJW. Because at this point SJW is such a broad, overarching, ran into the ground term. By all accounts, I could call you an SJW and be on the money. So the argument is built on the shaky ground of such a broad, vague term that the argument itself is weak. So you CAN disagree with the argument because they used such a term, because said term is so vague at this point, that arguing something has gone "SJW" is could mean just about anything..

This also does not mean the fact they reject all of his opinions, means they think FFXIV is a bad game, like you tried to pretty underhandly suggest. It just means they reject that person's opinions and again, they could easily agree with someone like MrHappy that FFXIV is a good game.

Edit incoming...

---

The term SJW and its meaning is not the point in question for this. The argument is not about Lalarrific disagreeing this one time. Lalarrific suggested that anyone who uses the term will get their opinion rejected unilaterally no matter what because they continue to use the term. Not this one time. This does mean that all opinion from this person in the video is rejected until he chooses to stop using the term. No, it is not underhanded either. It's simply pointing out a fallacy in the argument. I don't see what you're not understanding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyt

That's actually the point of the analogy. You don't feel the threat because it isn't someone coming up to you, which is why you're so much more complacent about it. The most dangerous threats are the ones you don't even realize are threats, because you're all that more likely to ignore them.

---

It all boils down to context, which is something that you cannot easily discern via emotionless text and emotes. Clear cases of harassment are not the problem here, what the person on the other end is perceiving is the problem. Getting a suspension for something unintentional is more likely to get people to leave the game or simply not interact with those they do not know. People play games to relieve the stress of having to walk on eggshells. Why subscribe to stress?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

-snip-

---

Except for all we know, unless Lalarrific clarifies, yes, the term SJW and its meaning, are way they reject this person's opinions. How can you take someone's opinions seriously if they have to start their argument with such a meaningless term? I get what you are trying to say, I am just disagreeing with it because that isn't how things work. Life ain't black and white, it's grey. And you seem to be approaching this from a black and white standpoint. And yes, shoving words down someone's throat IS underhanded.

But then again, we are arguing pretty intensely over what very much seems to be a joke. So, yeah, there's that too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

Except for all we know, unless Lalarrific clarifies, yes, the term SJW and its meaning, are way they reject this person's opinions. How can you take someone's opinions seriously if they have to start their argument with such a meaningless term? I get what you are trying to say, I am just disagreeing with it because that isn't how things work. Life ain't black and white, it's grey. And you seem to be approaching this from a black and white standpoint. And yes, shoving words down someone's throat IS underhanded.

But then again, we are arguing pretty intensely over what very much seems to be a joke. So, yeah, there's that too.

---

The term isn't meaningless. You just choose to give it no meaning. That is your problem.
and now your getting into pointless philosophy about black, white and grey. I am operating on the mere facts.
And no, pointing out fallacies is not shoving words down throats. By that logic, one could argue that peer review is underhanded.

Then we can just agree to disagree and leave it at that. We seem to be breaking no ground here anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Honestly, what are people supposed to use?

---

Simple. "The new ToS raises some concerns." or "I have issues with the new ToS." or something of a similar vein, then go from there. Opening with "They've gone SJW!" is basically setting the battle lines. "If you agree with the rules, you're an SJW, if you agree with me, you're good." Now in no way am I saying that was the intent but front loading it in such a way does create such a divide and puts a "You're either with us or against us." vibe to the argument. But, that's just from my standpoint. I agree that the rules have some...questionable wording and I would very much like some clarification on some things, the vagueness worries me on both fronts, those who'd abuse the system to silence others and those who'd abuse the system to bully others.

However, SE has basically put forward a call for feedback and I think responding with...well to put it bluntly, hysteria, isn't the best way to give feedback. Be calm, clear and straightforward. No buzzwords, no fearmongering, no hysteria. Just "The wording here is pretty vague, can we please get some clarification and, if possible, I'd suggest maybe changing it to (Insert example here)", cause responding with "THEY'VE GONE SJW!" "THE END TIMES ARE UPON US!" "I'LL GET BANNED FOR BREATHING!" is the quickest way to get your feedback ignored.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

Simple. "The new ToS raises some concerns." or "I have issues with the new ToS." or something of a similar vein, then go from there. Opening with "They've gone SJW!" is basically setting the battle lines. "If you agree with the rules, you're an SJW, if you agree with me, you're good." Now in no way am I saying that was the intent but front loading it in such a way does create such a divide and puts a "You're either with us or against us." vibe to the argument. But, that's just from my standpoint. I agree that the rules have some...questionable wording and I would very much like some clarification on some things, the vagueness worries me on both fronts, those who'd abuse the system to silence others and those who'd abuse the system to bully others.

However, SE has basically put forward a call for feedback and I think responding with...well to put it bluntly, hysteria, isn't the best way to give feedback. Be calm, clear and straightforward. No buzzwords, no fearmongering, no hysteria. Just "The wording here is pretty vague, can we please get some clarification and, if possible, I'd suggest maybe changing it to (Insert example here)", cause responding with "THEY'VE GONE SJW!" "THE END TIMES ARE UPON US!" "I'LL GET BANNED FOR BREATHING!" is the quickest way to get your feedback ignored.

---

I agree with you 100% on all of this haha. I mentioned in a few past posts, but the panic here has been pretty extra for the kind of community in FFXIV.

I guess my question is though, while I'm totally with you on this not being an SJW type situation--is the term itself something that just never should be used in any situation?

My sense is that in FFXIV because things are calmer people are more prone to using it in trivial situations than elsewhere, and folks have been viewing it more as a way to shut down any opposing opinions. Which again, I think is real dumb. There really are communities where this stuff gets that heavy though, and that's the term that tends to get dropped there.

Tbh it's been weird seeing people go over the issue here because when stuff takes hold that kind of worry is warranted, but it's not going on here so it reads kind of like calling a papercut worthy of hospitalization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaywalker

I guess my question is though, while I'm totally with you on this not being an SJW type situation--is the term itself something that just never should be used in any situation?

---

Personally, I'd rather it not be used, it's just become another box to shove people into to ignore their opinions. But, I understand why some still use it the way they do. Yes, the stereotypical kind of person the term used to be associated with are real and I'd just call them what they are, extremists. Same for the counter culture of 'Anti SJWs', they're both just two groups of extremes. And I guess, you could use the term when it comes to them but, it just doesn't feel right in my opinion. Mostly because the term has become so broad and vague that you can easily just apply it to anyone.

Ah, but I'm rambling at this point, best way I can put it, I personally don't use those terms but, you can if you want to. It's your life and your words and your right to say those words and live that life. If that makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

Personally, I'd rather it not be used, it's just become another box to shove people into to ignore their opinions. But, I understand why some still use it the way they do. Yes, the stereotypical kind of person the term used to be associated with are real and I'd just call them what they are, extremists. Same for the counter culture of 'Anti SJWs', they're both just two groups of extremes. And I guess, you could use the term when it comes to them but, it just doesn't feel right in my opinion. Mostly because the term has become so broad and vague that you can easily just apply it to anyone.

Ah, but I'm rambling at this point, best way I can put it, I personally don't use those terms but, you can if you want to. It's your life and your words and your right to say those words and live that life. If that makes sense.

---

Totally fair. Thanks for the thoughtful response on this! :)

Also you're right on anti-sjws too. People keep spiraling into extremes and it's really a shame imo. For me I think I'll probably reserve the word for when it really is the only one that applies and there's no ambiguity. I know you worried on rambling but you offered a really good perspective on this I think, so again thank you.

People are derailing the topic at hand by introducing the concept of SJW potential. First of all, let us RECALL what the ToS is for. In the end, it is a means for the developers and parent companies involved to dictate what fair/appropriate use of their software is. So we can call this a set of guidelines or rules. Without a doubt these contain bits on what harassment is defined as and what cheating/scams are defined as. The misuse of an FFXIV client is not desired.

Now let's return to the situation at hand where the ToS is being pushed for greater enforcement. OBVIOUSLY this means people still aren't listening and are still doing malicious deeds. This goes from harassment to misuse of game functions and more.

Take for example when Perform was implemented. What was it that S-E strictly said was prohibited when this extra function was added? If you said the publishing of performances that play licensed/copyrighted material was disallowed, I might start to once again believe in humanity being lesser of a flock than social media projects.

Here's another example, misuse of Vote Dismissal. People are still removing party members for the wrong reasons and the others who participate in such votes are also participating for wrong reasons. This is a game function that ALWAYS lets you know by warning that misuse of this game function is prohibited and punishable. Apparently not many care due to the convenience it provides.

Oh wait, we are so not done yet! Care to talk about 3rd party applications? FFLogs being utilized in party finder descriptions is heavily prohibited, but apparently people don't care. So they continue to do it. Many fly under this radar due to lack of reporting. With the revised ToS, all it may take now is 1 single report. That 1 singular voice and someone is going to suffer entirely avoidable scenarios.

The revised ToS is not something to nit pick and make people's lives intentionally more miserable. It is a REMINDER that they exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altaeciana

People are derailing the topic at hand by introducing the concept of SJW potential. First of all, let us RECALL what the ToS is for. In the end, it is a means for the developers and parent companies involved to dictate what fair/appropriate use of their software is. So we can call this a set of guidelines or rules. Without a doubt these contain bits on what harassment is defined as and what cheating/scams are defined as. The misuse of an FFXIV client is not desired.

Now let's return to the situation at hand where the ToS is being pushed for greater enforcement. OBVIOUSLY this means people still aren't listening and are still doing malicious deeds. This goes from harassment to misuse of game functions and more.

Take for example when Perform was implemented. What was it that S-E strictly said was prohibited when this extra function was added? If you said the publishing of performances that play licensed/copyrighted material was disallowed, I might start to once again believe in humanity being lesser of a flock than social media projects.

Here's another example, misuse of Vote Dismissal. People are still removing party members for the wrong reasons and the others who participate in such votes are also participating for wrong reasons. This is a game function that ALWAYS lets you know by warning that misuse of this game function is prohibited and punishable. Apparently not many care due to the convenience it provides.

Oh wait, we are so not done yet! Care to talk about 3rd party applications? FFLogs being utilized in party finder descriptions is heavily prohibited, but apparently people don't care. So they continue to do it. Many fly under this radar due to lack of reporting. With the revised ToS, all it may take now is 1 single report. That 1 singular voice and someone is going to suffer entirely avoidable scenarios.

The revised ToS is not something to nit pick and make people's lives intentionally more miserable. It is a REMINDER that they exist.

---

Those things Everyone agrees with the tos thats not the issue and never was the issue is them becoming feeling police and now we cant even talk without the fear of some crybaby reporting

1. I see a whole lot of posters who haven't read the ToS and have a lot of "things" to say in here.

2. Think of this from an international perspective, we are grouped by region but that doesn't mean we are all from that region. Think about what may be a nuisance to others or offensive to others who are not American... this entire SJW silliness is mostly irrelevant to average players outside of the U.S.

3. The single most toxic behavior is all based on parsings of other players performance. My favorite argument is the "constructive criticism" argument. Let's be frank, you guys who think you're being constructive are, 99% of the time, being total jerks. Then once you've offended somebody you throw your hands up and say "What? I'm just tryin' to help you get (insert get good memes) better at your job." More and more, players are being pressured to "perform" what some believe is a standard level of play. When they don't meet these IMAGINED minimums, they experience tremendous anxiety about who will attack them or what they will do to humiliate them. So naturally they bail or quit tanking/healing, etc.

Easiest solution ever people: Do unto others... and you will never be punished for being kind, patient, and tolerant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Those things Everyone agrees with the tos thats not the issue and never was the issue is them becoming feeling police and now we cant even talk without the fear of some crybaby reporting

---

Oh god can we stop with the fearmongering, catastrophizing and overall use of buzzwords? You aren't gonna get banned for speaking. Unless you are spitting some truly toxic vitriol at people in chat or just flat out being racist or the like. No, you aren't going to get banned for asking someone to use shield oath, you aren't gonna get banned for merely talking. Is there some vagueness that should get cleared up or more clealry defined? Absolutely! But nothing even remotely suggests you are gonna get a instant perma ban cause you entered a dungeon and said "Hi."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K3KW4RCHILD

1. I see a whole lot of posters who haven't read the ToS and have a lot of "things" to say in here.

2. Think of this from an international perspective, we are grouped by region but that doesn't mean we are all from that region. Think about what may be a nuisance to others or offensive to others who are not American... this entire SJW silliness is mostly irrelevant to average players outside of the U.S.

3. The single most toxic behavior is all based on parsings of other players performance. My favorite argument is the "constructive criticism" argument. Let's be frank, you guys who think you're being constructive are, 99% of the time, being total jerks. Then once you've offended somebody you throw your hands up and say "What? I'm just tryin' to help you get (insert get good memes) better at your job." More and more, players are being pressured to "perform" what some believe is a standard level of play. When they don't meet these IMAGINED minimums, they experience tremendous anxiety about who will attack them or what they will do to humiliate them. So naturally they bail or quit tanking/healing, etc.

Easiest solution ever people: Do unto others... and you will never be punished for being kind, patient, and tolerant.

---

Not even close 2 the truth lol i got banned for 3 days before arr not for insulting,trolling etc but because ppl didn't like someone rping or talking about yaoi manga lol on my first acc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

Oh god can we stop with the fearmongering, catastrophizing and overall use of buzzwords? You aren't gonna get banned for speaking. Unless you are spitting some truly toxic vitriol at people in chat or just flat out being racist or the like. No, you aren't going to get banned for asking someone to use shield oath, you aren't gonna get banned for merely talking. Is there some vagueness that should get cleared up or more clealry defined? Absolutely! But nothing even remotely suggests you are gonna get a instant perma ban cause you entered a dungeon and said "Hi."

---

Lol its not fear mogger because its the truth and always has been.. i have never been rude or insulted anyone or any of that in fact for most part keep 2 by self rp with some dark theme or talk about manga HAS got me banned by crybabys

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Lol its not fear mogger because its the truth and always has been.. i have never been rude or insulted anyone or any of that in fact for most part keep 2 by self rp with some dark theme or talk about manga HAS got me banned by crybabys

---

It is fearmongering though. "Ooooh, don't speak! Else you'll trigger the SjWs and get perma banned!" I mean really? This is basic fearmongering. Also, I think it's less your dark RP and talk about manga and more your attitude that's gotten you in trouble. You say you have never insulted anyone....yet you're blanket insulting a bunch of hypothetical people (And I'm guessing the folks who reported you.) by calling them "crybabys" also...*Crybabies.

[calm down?]
> Yes
—-No

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

It is fearmongering though. "Ooooh, don't speak! Else you'll trigger the SjWs and get perma banned!" I mean really? This is basic fearmongering. Also, I think it's less your dark RP and talk about manga and more your attitude that's gotten you in trouble. You say you have never insulted anyone....yet you're blanket insulting a bunch of hypothetical people (And I'm guessing the folks who reported you.) by calling them "crybabys" also...*Crybabies.

---

Lol and of course the attitude defense news flash if a person feels uncomfortable by what you say regardless of what it is its a legitment reason to report


that was the exact words the gm used in the jail 2 me it had nothing 2 do with attiude

So try again lol in fact i didn't know i was reported till 3 hours when i was teled

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Lol and of course the attitude defense news flash if a person feels uncomfortable by what you say regardless of what it is its a legitment reason to report


that was the exact words the gm used in the jail 2 me it had nothing 2 do with attiude

So try again lol in fact i didn't know i was reported till 3 hours when i was teled

---

Hmmmm, me thinks there's more to this story then what's being said. Sounds either too farfetched or like important details are being left out. But, whatever. I don't plan to pursue it, as I've already derailed the thread once today.

Also you're not supposed to know you were reported till a GM contacts you, that's kinda how things work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fredco191

[calm down?]
> Yes
—-No

---

Smash that yes button! Smash it now!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

Hmmmm, me thinks there's more to this story then what's being said. Sounds either too farfetched or like important details are being left out. But, whatever. I don't plan to pursue it, as I've already derailed the thread once today.

Also you're not supposed to know you were reported till a GM contacts you, that's kinda how things work.


Smash that yes button! Smash it now!

---

That might be true but if a person has a proplem with what you say the least the person could do is say something 2 you about it before cry report...

The only thing more to that story is me telling the gm they had no legitment right 2 report what i said


There is 3 key things in the tos that will only lead 2 confluct and innocent ppl being banned

The thing about opinions shouldn't be in there we all respect each others view points doesn't mean we have to go i agree to avoid trouble

2.
Morals should have never been added 2 the tos no two ppl share the same moral belief system even if they are from same country i respect your moral belief but that isn't going 2 change mine lol

3rd spam everything can be called spam with how they define it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Those things Everyone agrees with the tos thats not the issue and never was the issue is them becoming feeling police and now we cant even talk without the fear of some crybaby reporting

---

I've said some truly outlandish stuff in-game, never so much as been cautioned... perhaps it's different in the states, but here in the EU realms, you can get away with quite a lot. The GMs have even said you absolutely can give constructive criticism or disagree with someone, just remain considerate and understanding while doing so, and you won't get in trouble. So I do believe there's more to the story than you're letting off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I've said some truly outlandish stuff in-game, never so much as been cautioned... perhaps it's different in the states, but here in the EU realms, you can get away with quite a lot. The GMs have even said you absolutely can give constructive criticism or disagree with someone, just remain considerate and understanding while doing so, and you won't get in trouble. So I do believe there's more to the story than you're letting off.

---

This is were the proplem is occure as much as it pains me to say this on the state side everyone is offended over every little thing and this effects social media and games when the workers be it gms etc are in the states...

You literally can't walk to a gas station in the usa for a candy bar with a t shirt saying i love meat without someone being offended. In eu and japan ppl are overall less senstive about every little thing..

The people who continue to still go on about the new ToS are more than likely the ones who will be most affected by it because they can't control themselves in a public, social environment.

Seriously, calm down guys. It's not hard to act civilized. There will be cookies.

If you're freaking out in shout or alliance chat and calling people memes, racial slurs, and other nasty things then yes, you should be worried.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

This is were the proplem is occure as much as it pains me to say this on the state side everyone is offended over every little thing and this effects social media and games when the workers be it gms etc are in the states...

You literally can't walk to a gas station in the usa for a candy bar with a t shirt saying i love meat without someone being offended. In eu and japan ppl are overall less senstive about every little thing..

---

As a person who lives in the USA, you can stop with the fear mongering, seriously. I've seen people walk into gas stations with shirts saying less than savory things and nothing blew up around them. The only person blowing this out of proportion is you right now.

Sure, my country isn't a perfect, little angel when it comes to freedom of expression and you will run into an easily offended person on occasion, but nothing like what you're trying to describe that supposedly happens every single time.

No country is perfect, not the places people hail from in Europe (Yes, I realize that Europe is a continent, but I'm not listing every single country in Europe) or Japan either. Let's stay away from that territory.

I am looking forward to the Trust system for story content, indeed I am. Being able to advance the story without depending on others, or worrying about them depending on me, oh yes...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

The people who continue to still go on about the new ToS are more than likely the ones who will be most affected by it because they can't control themselves in a public, social environment.

Seriously, calm down guys. It's not hard to act civilized. There will be cookies.

If you're freaking out in shout or alliance chat and calling people memes, racial slurs, and other nasty things then yes, you should be worried.

---

It's impressive that after 92 pages on the topic there are still people thinking that the only ones who should be worried are jerks, trolls and sociopaths.

Here's the tl;dr: these new vague rules, on paper, can punish "nice people". We need SE to clarify that and tell us and how strictly they want to enforce their new policy in order to make sure that "nice people" won't get impacted. And this is an answer only SE can provide.
Tl;dr of the tl;dr: We want to be sure that "nice people" won't get hit by the banhammer. Also, we don't care about other people's assumptions that it won't happen.

It's kind of funny how they put out content that actively stirs up anger and rage making people compete for spots in a dungeon that should be organized and punishes you for failing
and simultaneously put this out as if they knew ahead of time the cesspool they were creating deciding to try and control the player response solely through fear of being banned

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyce

It's impressive that after 92 pages on the topic there are still people thinking that the only ones who should be worried are jerks, trolls and sociopaths.

Here's the tl;dr: these new vague rules, on paper, can punish "nice people". We need SE to clarify that and tell us and how strictly they want to enforce their new policy in order to make sure that "nice people" won't get impacted. And this is an answer only SE can provide.
Tl;dr of the tl;dr: We want to be sure that "nice people" won't get hit by the banhammer. Also, we don't care about other people's assumptions that it won't happen.

---

Nice people won't have anything to worry about if they're actually "nice". Again, spreading this paranoia isn't going to help yourself or anyone else. You're just going to make people more paranoid. If you've never received an in-game ban beforehand from just acting the way that you've been currently, then you're probably going to fine.

There's no reason why everyone has to become chicken little right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Nice people won't have anything to worry about if they're actually "nice". Again, spreading this paranoia isn't going to help yourself or anyone else. You're just going to make people more paranoid. If you've never received an in-game ban beforehand from just acting the way that you've been currently, then you're probably going to fine.

There's no reason why everyone has to become chicken little right now.

---

Pretty much. But any time some sort of change is made people freak out whether it's justifiable or not (this time it is not). That is how it has always been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Nice people won't have anything to worry about if they're actually "nice". Again, spreading this paranoia isn't going to help yourself or anyone else. You're just going to make people more paranoid. If you've never received an in-game ban beforehand from just acting the way that you've been currently, then you're probably going to fine.

There's no reason why everyone has to become chicken little right now.

---

There is no paranoia spreading. He is asking for reasonable changes and making reasonable arguments. I think you and other people need to just stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation rather than just yelling "FEARMONGER! PARANOIA! ARGUMENT INVALID!" You're not contributing to the conversation, just trying to dismiss everything. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Nice people won't have anything to worry about if they're actually "nice". Again, spreading this paranoia isn't going to help yourself or anyone else. You're just going to make people more paranoid. If you've never received an in-game ban beforehand from just acting the way that you've been currently, then you're probably going to fine.

There's no reason why everyone has to become chicken little right now.

---

You're just flat out ignoring this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foxclon

Under the previous policies, some issues were difficult to address due to them being on the cusp, such as actions that were “Negative, but not severe enough to take action.” Additionally, we felt that the 3-day suspension did not have the desired inhibiting effect for some of the more severe issues.

---

The entire reason we're here is because things that weren't punished before will be punished now, and we don't have a clear enough picture of what that actually entails. It's entirely possible that amidst a discussion about the game, you called someones idea "stupid", and they reported you. That would normally be seen as "Negative, but not severe enough to take action." Precisely like what these changes are designed to focus on, said so by Foxclon himself, aka the man who sits beside Yoshida in most of the live letters. And even if you were to trust his judgement, who's to say that his judgement is reflected in each and every GM?

A number of people are dismissing our opinions outright without consideration, describing it as "panic inducing" among other things. No one here seems to think that the sky is falling, or that it will fall if someone gets banned unfairly. No one here seems to be trying to communicate that, either. I propose that many here who are using the term "panic" have an unfair definition of the term itself. Same with "fear mongering".

In a world as varied as ours people are bound to disagree. Ironically this discussion centers around a set of rules that includes a rule to not dismiss another's opinion. I find myself defending that notion, not as a rule, but as an ideal. Surely if you all tackle the discussion with consideration rather than rejection fueled by pre-formed opinions, you'll come out as better people than you were before.

Thought about this for a bit.

To the people worried about hypersensitive extremists in GM positions or over-reporting to GMs: Final Fantasy XIV has a lot of built in deterrents to those with that mindset. Some of it comes from having any degree of challenge in the gameplay. Some comes from having to work alongside other people. Some comes from having characters who are traditionally attractive present at all. Some comes from not segregating clothing options according to race/culture overall.

This is of course besides the game examining heavy topics and moral complexity.

If anything, there's a bigger risk from extremists learning about FFXIV's existence and targeting any players or devs with false accusations and harassment.

Cross bridges when you get to them. It's not worth the stress of hypotheticals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

There is no paranoia spreading. He is asking for reasonable changes and making reasonable arguments. I think you and other people need to just stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation rather than just yelling "FEARMONGER! PARANOIA! ARGUMENT INVALID!" You're not contributing to the conversation, just trying to dismiss everything. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

---

In light of what you just said, then you should probably start following your own advice as your post contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation and is incredibly belittling and hostile sounding for no reason. If you have nothing to add other than being a smart mouth towards the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it. I bet when your own words are turned around, it doesn't feel nice does it? Don't be a hypocrite about things, please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyt

The entire reason we're here is because things that weren't punished before will be punished now, and we don't have a clear enough picture of what that actually entails. It's entirely possible that amidst a discussion about the game, you called someones idea "stupid", and they reported you. That would normally be seen as "Negative, but not severe enough to take action." Precisely like what these changes are designed to focus on, said so by Foxclon himself, aka the man who sits beside Yoshida in most of the live letters. And even if you were to trust his judgement, who's to say that his judgement is reflected in each and every GM?

A number of people are dismissing our opinions outright without consideration, describing it as "panic inducing" among other things. No one here seems to think that the sky is falling, or that it will fall if someone gets banned unfairly. No one here seems to be trying to communicate that, either. I propose that many here who are using the term "panic" have an unfair definition of the term itself. Same with "fear mongering".

In a world as varied as ours people are bound to disagree. Ironically this discussion centers around a set of rules that includes a rule to not dismiss another's opinion. I find myself defending that notion, not as a rule, but as an ideal. Surely if you all tackle the discussion with consideration rather than rejection fueled by pre-formed opinions, you'll come out as better people than you were before.

---

And the rules prior regarding the ToS before the changes were just as vague as beforehand, but a lot of people probably didn't bother to ACTUALLY read them the first time and just clicked the "Yes, I agree" so they could get towards playing the game faster. They literally took the the rules that they already had beforehand that were still vague mind you, tweaked them a little bit, and yet somehow they're still just as vague as they were before. This will blow over in a few weeks.

The only reason people are suddenly worried about the rules now is because they actually made it a Lodestone topic, and that got people to actually read parts of the ToS in more detail instead of just agreeing towards everything blindly in the beginning.

As someone else had said prior, they made these changes to remind people that the ToS does in fact exist and perhaps SE is tired of people ignoring it and acting out against it while creating a toxic environment for other players across all three regions. We don't know how many report tickets get sent in on a daily basis before the ToS revision. Perhaps it was a lot, and so they're hoping that these new changes will curb it.

At the same time, I can understand why the rules need a certain amount of vagueness simply because these are rules that must address the conduct of players from all three different regions with tons, TONS of language barriers. What one country may find offensive, another may not, and so on and so forth.

The rules are probably left vague because it would be either too wordy or impossible to convey all of the types of social culture from different countries, their own morals, behaviors, and how to enforce it without upsetting one region over the other.

For example, "the Japanese players have a different set of rules than we do! That's not fair!". It's left vague for fairness and ambiguity for the GM's more than likely and for SE to have a neutral stance, or at least "appear" to have one in regards to how they enforce players from all three regions: never favoring one over the other in terms of the ToS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyt

A number of people are dismissing our opinions outright without consideration, describing it as "panic inducing" among other things. No one here seems to think that the sky is falling.

---

You are doing the very thing you are accusing others of. Dismissing and belittling our opinions because you think we are trying to dismiss or belittle your opinions. We agree with the attempt to have some of the more vague rules clarified. However, there ARE folks fearmongering, there are folks treating it like the sky is falling. Skim the early pages of this thread, heck go back and see Morbol's posts. And that is where we reach a disagreement.

I respect and encourage giving clear feedback but so far, I am seeing a paranoia and a level of "I think this will happen...therefore it WILL happen." argumentation going around. Not with everyone but to say no one is trying to fearmonger or that no one is being paranoid is plainly and observably false. Also, go back a page and you will see Fyce out right blanket dismissing the opinions of others who think MAYBE folks are going a little overboard. So, sorry, if I'm seeing a little hypocrisy here.

Again, I agree and encourage giving clear feedback. We should, there are some pretty vague parts of these rules and I do want them addressed, but arguing them from a "This might happen, therefore it will happen." standpoint is getting us no where.

To borrow something Fyce said. On paper these rules could hurt 'nice players', I agree there but I emphasize the word COULD. But I also emphasize that there is a vast difference between on paper and in practice. We could work out on paper every possible way these rules could go wrong or could go right, but still have no idea how they would go in actual practice.

I admit and apologize that yeah, I have been a little blunt and heavy handed here and may have bluntly dismissed someone due to this and I deeply apologize for that. But I've seen this go down multiple times in different fanbases and ultimately, it resulted in a big ol "nothing burger".

We're ultimately arguing for the same thing. But overall see issues with each other's ways and are trying to course correct each other. But we ARE on the same side and I want that to be understood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

In light of what you just said, then you should probably start following your own advice as your post contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation and is incredibly belittling and hostile sounding for no reason. If you have nothing to add other than being a smart mouth towards the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it. I bet when your own words are turned around, it doesn't feel nice does it? Don't be a hypocrite about things, please.



And the rules prior regarding the ToS before the changes were just as vague as beforehand, but a lot of people probably didn't bother to ACTUALLY read them the first time and just clicked the "Yes, I agree" so they could get towards playing the game faster. They literally took the the rules that they already had beforehand that were still vague mind you, tweaked them a little bit, and yet somehow they're still just as vague as they were before. This will blow over in a few weeks.

The only reason people are suddenly worried about the rules now is because they actually made it a Lodestone topic, and that got people to actually read parts of the ToS in more detail instead of just agreeing towards everything blindly in the beginning.

As someone else had said prior, they made these changes to remind people that the ToS does in fact exist and perhaps SE is tired of people ignoring it and acting out against it while creating a toxic environment for other players across all three regions. We don't know how many report tickets get sent in on a daily basis before the ToS revision. Perhaps it was a lot, and so they're hoping that these new changes will curb it.

---

My post merely pointed out that YOU contributed nothing to the conversation. There was no hostility in that. It was pointing out YOUR dismissiveness that is still VERY apparent. You just feel offended because I told you the truth of that. Offense can only be taken, not given. The only person who felt insulted here is you and it's pretty clear that you're the only one here with the intent to attack others. My post was constructive with the aim of getting real conversation going while your previous post was aimed at destroying any conversation that was ongoing. Just like this post you have right now where your just trying to insult me for pointing out exactly what you are doing.

Instead of poorly trying to flip my argument against me, you can choose to learn from your mistakes and grow. Your response to Freyt is a good start at trying to be constructive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

My post merely pointed out that YOU contributed nothing to the conversation. There was no hostility in that. It was pointing out YOUR dismissiveness that is still VERY apparent. You just feel offended because I told you the truth of that. Offense can only be taken, not given. The only person who felt insulted here is you and it's pretty clear that you're the only one here with the intent to attack others. My post was constructive with the aim of getting real conversation going while your previous post was aimed at destroying any conversation that was ongoing. Just like this post you have right now where your just trying to insult me for pointing out exactly what you are doing.

Instead of poorly trying to flip my argument against me, you can choose to learn from your mistakes and grow. Your response to Freyt is a good start at trying to be constructive.

---

And here you are still trying to be dismissive of someone else's opinion because it doesn't mesh with your own. Your post was no where near being constructive, Freyt was, but yours was not and added nothing to the debate other than you wanting to make sure your misguided anger got heard. Nothing more or nothing less than that. You offered no form of an idea other than "stop having an opinion that I don't like". I can't feel offended over someone throwing a tantrum with capslock and no, you didn't tell me the truth of anything. All you did was basically stand on a soapbox with a shaky foundation and shake your fist that other people aren't allow to say certain things. You can't police language and it seems like, overall, you're the one who took offense towards what I said in the first place. There was plenty hostility in your post because context does matter and so does the tone of what someone writes.

Again, stop lecturing others for doing something while being a hypocrite at it yourself. You haven't contributed anything so far other than trying to get an argument out of me. And, like it or not, but it doesn't matter how much you scream that my opinion offers nothing, it does because everyone is entitled towards having one and one's own opinion is no more invalid than the next. It offers nothing to you and that's fine, but it still offers something to the conversation, and no matter how hard you want it to be otherwise, you can't magically wish that away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

And the rules prior regarding the ToS before the changes were just as vague as beforehand, but a lot of people probably didn't bother to ACTUALLY read them the first time and just clicked the "Yes, I agree" so they could get towards playing the game faster. They literally took the the rules that they already had beforehand that were still vague mind you, tweaked them a little bit, and yet somehow they're still just as vague as they were before. This will blow over in a few weeks.

---

I don't like this muddling between ToS and rules regarding disciplinary action. I get why you're linking the two, but one is in regards to everything in and out of the game concerning xiv copyrighted content, and the other declares how and why anyone will be punished for their behavior inside of the game.

If these very rules were in the ToS instead then I wouldn't be putting myself at risk here by criticizing SE, or anywhere my account could be linked to my arguments. I'm completely okay with "we reserve the right to terminate your account for any reason". That's not vague at all. I'd be more worried for them if they didn't have such a clause. That's entirely separate from "and these are the rules we ask you to follow while playing". It's also another matter entirely that these changes happen concerning players who've been signed up since 1.0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

However, there ARE folks fearmongering, there are folks treating it like the sky is falling.

---

I've been posting since I believe around page 45, and I read the entire thread before I did. What you claim might be present in a small number of posts. I believe someone posted along the lines of "this game is all I care about and I can't handle this". However that is among the worst I can think of, and doesn't quite compare to what you describe.

Additionally it's unfair to describe current discussion of the topic based on only the very beginnings of it.

Describing events believed that "will happen" I think is far less of a controversy than you put it. No one is saying it's going to be rampant all over the place in every direction with cats and dogs falling out of the sky. They're saying that humans make mistakes, and it's only natural that a GM make a mistake whether it was after or before all of this, and that what's important I'd that we're able to correct those mistakes as much as possible and prevent as many of then as we can.

The argument is that these changes not only bring much more room for there to be mistakes, but for many of those mistakes to never see correction.

The sky will eventually fall. It'll be many billions of years from now, but I can assure you that it will happen. There's no fear mongering in that statement. It's simply a fact that none of us will ever see. The sun will explode one day and destroy the Earth. Just the same as if you leave a wad of cash somewhere, it's going to be taken eventually, whether it was as a bad deed or a good deed.

It's much more unreasonable to state that it'll never happen. Once you accept that it will happen, the question then becomes "what do we do about it?", and the answer isn't this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

-snip-

---

I'm sorry to butt in here but I think a different set of eyes would allow a broader perspective. While I'm sure your heart was in the right place with your post and what you were trying to convey, your post did come off aggressive and even like you were brow beating Sigma. There wasn't much I would consider constructive and it came off far more as if you are talking down to people. This is again my perspective but I think maybe dialing back the 'real talk, I just say it as it is.' attitude would go a long way in coming off more constructive rather then arrogant. I would also say that this post is also coming off in a similar vein, from telling people how they are feeling to insisting you are just telling the truth and that the truth somehow offended Sigma. This whole thing just comes off as incredibly arrogant and rude. Again, while I'm sure your heart is in the right place, the execution is less then stellar.

But again, this is merely my perspective, do with it what you please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyt

-snip-

---

I think you are missing what I am trying to say. I agree that it could happen, there is no argument there. The rules are rather broad and could hurt the more innocent part of the player base. But it is the insistence that it could happen therefore it will, is where you lose me. I am not saying it will never happen, I'm saying that I think people are over stating the ramifications and possible outcome, while also putting a little too much into the "It will happen" bucket.

Again, to clarify. I agree that it could happen, and we need to voice our concerns clearly. However I don't think it will be to the level some have been billing it as. I am also not saying it will never happen.

Anyways, I'm going to bow out here, because I think we're just going to ultimately argue around each other and I have to be up for wok in 6ish hours. So, I'm gonna hit the hay, and we'll see where things land tomorrow. Have a lovely evening and please understand, I bear no ill will or anything like that towards you and others arguing similar to you. I just mildly disagree with some points. Anyways, I'm rambling. Take care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

And here you are still trying to be dismissive of someone else's opinion because it doesn't mesh with your own. Your post was no where near being constructive, Freyt was, but your's was not and added nothing to the debate other than you wanting to make sure your misguided anger got heard. Nothing more or nothing less than that. You offered no form of an idea other than "stop having an opinion that I don't like".

Again, stop lecturing others for doing something while being a hypocrite at it yourself. You haven't contributed anything so far other than trying to get an argument out of me. And, like it or not, but it doesn't matter how much you scream that my opinion offers nothing, it does because everyone is entitled towards having one and one's own opinion is more invalid than the next. It offers nothing to you and that's fine, but it still offers something to the conversation, and no matter how hard you want it to be otherwise, you can't.

---

Have you noticed a trend in your arguments? All you're doing is taking my words and throwing them back at me and trying to make up reasons to justify your points. No, my posts aren't filled with anger but yours very clearly is.

For what is 'constructive' I told you to stop dismissing arguments and start taking a more constructive stance. This meant that I was trying to make the conversations taking place more productive and thus that make what I said to you constructive. You wanting to end arguments because you don't like what others are saying is not constructive. There is nothing hypocritical about it even though you wish it to be so.

But lets go back here

Quote:

---

I think you and other people need to just stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation rather than just yelling "FEARMONGER! PARANOIA! ARGUMENT INVALID!" You're not contributing to the conversation, just trying to dismiss everything. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

---

Nowhere here did I dismiss your argument did I? I just told you that you need to provide a constructive argument rather than dismissing people and suggested that if you had nothing to add then don't add it. You are insisting that I dismiss arguments even though I haven't. I suggest you take more time trying to understand and read rather than trying to paint anyone as the enemy.