Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Its honestly not surprising so many tanks these days dont know how to mitigate, because you quite literally don't even have to until Stormblood content, and even then its not that much of a skill check.

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I think part of the reason tanks in EW are so bad at mitigating is partly because they standardised markers across all content. People who are levelling tanks see a tankbuster marker in some low level dungeon and they barely take any damage from it, which likely leads people into thinking it's not worth mitigating and leads them more into the "mitigation is for emergencies" mindset.

I think a way to fix this is to give tanks a weak version of their short CD for their first dungeon and make the tankbusters in early dungeons hit harder, maybe just a 10% mitigation would work. It would encourage people to learn to have at least something up for harder hits.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think part of the reason tanks in EW are so bad at mitigating is partly because they standardised markers across all content. People who are levelling tanks see a tankbuster marker in some low level dungeon and they barely take any damage from it, which likely leads people into thinking it's not worth mitigating and leads them more into the "mitigation is for emergencies" mindset.

I think a way to fix this is to give tanks a weak version of their short CD for their first dungeon and make the tankbusters in early dungeons hit harder, maybe just a 10% mitigation would work. It would encourage people to learn to have at least something up for harder hits.

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If you want to teach tanks to compulsively use a mitigation when they see that marker, make the very first one they come across kill outright if unmitigated, or at least do enough damage that the next auto will kill them. Harsh lessons are effective teachers, and better that they learn early than later.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

You didn't even talk about or touch on WAR's damage.

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There's no point discussing potency numbers at this point, because the stat values and formulas typically change each expansion, resulting in a completely different balance. The only thing that players can provide meaningful feedback on is mitigation and self-sustain, because these discrepancies have persisted across several expansions now. If you think that some of these issues are 'insignificant', then you should have no objection to seeing them changed in the name of fairness.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

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The scary thing is that many of these changes aren't new, and most have been in the live game at some point. I'm just asking that the mitigation inflation be rolled back.

• Thrill of Battle was perfectly fine before it had Convalescence added in in 5.0.
• Holmgang was the most powerful defensive in the game even before its duration was increased from 6 seconds to 10 seconds following progressive buffs in 5.1 and 6.0. Why wasn't its recast scaled up when its only drawback was removed?
• Equilibrium was perfectly fine as a self heal even before the regen effect was added in 6.0.
• Shake it Off was stronger than the likes of Dark Missionary and Heart of Light even before it gained a 7% barrier buff (5.0 and 5.2), a 15 second duration buff (6.3), a raidwide heal (6.0), and a raidwide regen (6.3). The trade-off to justify its versatility against all damage types was supposedly that you consumed personal buffs in order to strengthen it, which you can still do. For reference, Tank LB1 is 20% mitigation/25% eHP.

If none of these buffs were present at a point when WAR was already widely considered to be the strongest tank, why were they added in? Your solution to 'just buff other tanks into equivalence' doesn't address years of mitigation inflation. Tanks historically cleared content without raidwide heals and regens added in to their raidwide defensives. DRK was expected to get by having only had access to Reprisal in Stormblood, nothing else, so you definitely can roll these advantages back safely. Healers are actively feeding back that they don't want to see another expansion like this with completely self-sufficient tanks that double up as raidwide healers. Why lean even harder into the same direction when you know that it's flawed?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

...If you think that some of these issues are 'insignificant', then you should have no objection to seeing them changed in the name of fairness.

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Presupposing that the issues in question would remain insignificant when changed en masse, and that the changes would be fair. Suppositions which I doubt would hold in practice.

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...If none of these buffs were present at a point when WAR was already widely considered to be the strongest tank, why were they added in? ...

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I hope you're talking about SB WAR, because if you're talking about ShB WAR that is some serious historical revisionism. And I would point out that WAR was considered the weakest tank(for raid content) in ShB, even with a number of those buffs.

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Tanks historically cleared content without raidwide heals and regens added in to their raidwide defensives. DRK was expected to get by having only had access to Reprisal in Stormblood, nothing else, so you definitely can roll these advantages back safely.

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*Tanks historically cleared historical content.* While a factual statement, it does not mean that the old tank kits would be capable of clearing current Savage content. Savage is what the game is balanced and designed around, and I have a hard time believing that any of the SB tanks would have the mit to survive current raid design. The fights might get a lot of flak for their damage output, but you can be sure that the newer fights were tuned with the newer tools in mind. Hence why they required DPS to use their mits early in the tiers.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Please don't. Like I get that WAR is overpowered and we've been ragging on it but the last thing I want to see is another job be robbed of its tools.
I view the issue more of as why are the devs ok with Shadow Wall, Sentinel, and Nebula being literal clone skills while Vengeance is the exact same skill with an added perk. Why make Dark Missionary and HoL niche clone skills when Shake gets all of that?

With some fringe exceptions of Holmgang's CD being too low causing it being to easy to discount savage TB mechs, or NF being too valuable compared to other tank's shield on allies, I'd really rather not just strip WAR of all of this.
I'd much rather just give the other tanks their own forms of this, in ways that fit them more uniquely. I take more issue with the favoritism than the fact these tools exist at all, and no the other tanks dont need to be matched in sustain. I just dont like how many clone skills the others get saddled with while WAR gets the exact same skill with some additional effect making it an objective upgrade.

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Again you can’t discount the fact that you can’t just keep buffing each tank amongst each other and ignore the fact that you are quite literally warping the game around you. Absolutely none of the nerfs lyth has suggested would make WAR bad in any way. Tanks are just way too used fo literally never being nerfed

The other person said 8% mitigation is useless, better go tell SCH to delete illumination off their hotbar then as apparently anything less than 15% mitigation is useless. See the problem, you’ve become so blind to how strong you are you are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water on a mitigation that is still incredibly useful just because it’s not the strongest mitigation in the game anymore

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Please don't. Like I get that WAR is overpowered and we've been ragging on it but the last thing I want to see is another job be robbed of its tools.
I view the issue more of as why are the devs ok with Shadow Wall, Sentinel, and Nebula being literal clone skills while Vengeance is the exact same skill with an added perk. Why make Dark Missionary and HoL niche clone skills when Shake gets all of that?

With some fringe exceptions of Holmgang's CD being too low causing it being to easy to discount savage TB mechs, or NF being too valuable compared to other tank's shield on allies, I'd really rather not just strip WAR of all of this.
I'd much rather just give the other tanks their own forms of this, in ways that fit them more uniquely. I take more issue with the favoritism than the fact these tools exist at all, and no the other tanks dont need to be matched in sustain. I just dont like how many clone skills the others get saddled with while WAR gets the exact same skill with some additional effect making it an objective upgrade.

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WAR's utility is far too strong that buffing the other tanks to catch up will result to even more powercreep. What's the point of the effort spent on pruning so we don't see absurd 1M damage per hit if the powercreep comes from overtuned utilities.

Which again circles round to the problem that so many people don’t seem to understand

Buffing the other three to WAR’s level is balancing the tanks at the expense of everyone else, nerfing WAR (and arguably PLD) back to GNB levels is balancing tanks at the expense of 1/2 classes and the benefit of everyone else

We are in this problem because tanks are willing to ignore the other roles to achieve internal balance

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Which again circles round to the problem that so many people don’t seem to understand

Buffing the other three to WAR’s level is balancing the tanks at the expense of everyone else, nerfing WAR (and arguably PLD) back to GNB levels is balancing tanks at the expense of 1/2 classes and the benefit of everyone else

We are in this problem because tanks are willing to ignore the other roles to achieve internal balance

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I think all tanks could be brought down. The short cd mits being as strong as they are also kinda makes mitigation boring.
I can't think of many situations where using the short cd mit + my rampart or 30% isn't enough besides Dark knight, which often uses 3-4.
The main concern i think would be content designed around the way things currently work. (DSR and TOP namely).

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I think all tanks could be brought down. The short cd mits being as strong as they are also kinda makes mitigation boring.
I can't think of many situations where using the short cd mit + my rampart or 30% isn't enough besides Dark knight, who often uses 3-4.
The main concern i think would be content designed around the way things currently work. (DSR and TOP namely).

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I don't think content would become suddenly problematic if the tank short CDs were reverted to the ShB version.

It was balanced when WAR could only heal, GNB could only mitigate, PLD could only block and DRK could only shield. The imbalance happened when they started tacking on more and more effects to the short CD (Seriously, look at Bloodwhetting, that tooltip reads like a paragraph from a novel). Well, except for DRK apparently, because DRK is the only one that didn't get an extra effect tacked onto their short CD in EW.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't think content would become suddenly problematic if the tank short CDs were reverted to the ShB version.

It was balanced when WAR could only heal, GNB could only mitigate, PLD could only block and DRK could only shield. The imbalance happened when they started tacking on more and more effects to the short CD (Seriously, look at Bloodwhetting, that tooltip reads like a paragraph from a novel). Well, except for DRK apparently, because DRK is the only one that didn't get an extra effect tacked onto their short CD in EW.

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Nerf TBN down to 20% and see how that works out. We don't have the lifesteal anymore.
Oblation was meant to be our TBN buff, because they can't buff TBN directly without making it more clunky.
If you make the shield larger or carry inherent mitigation you make it harder to break, which makes you lose dps.
So they gave you something on the side to mix in with it if you wanted to.