I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Downtime wouldnt exist if SE
actually could make fights depended on healing:

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Nope downtime would still exist, when you are skilled enough as a healer downtime will always be a thing. ALWAYS. It even existed in ARR! I'm all for one with increasing healing requirements too but we should really be looking at these things as two separate issues that fall under job design as a whole. The FFXIV healer should be a balance where you answer the call to extreme healing but focus on dps on your downtime, as that's how it's always been to some extent. Our healing should not be replaceable, just as our damage contributed should not be replaceable. The game, and devs, need to factor that healers are an entity (not just a placeholder). Unfortunately their game design would have healers bring 0 value in a good team, in which case they become replaceable for dps, and they, the devs, haven't realized or don't care that it's a bad job design. We need to watch the jobs burn before they can rise anew, and hopefully the continuing of button bloat on heal buttons will finally bring the job to dwindle to a critical state that they need to do something lel.

Also when did 3-5 buttons extra dictact a dps? If anything that's still less than what tanks get lel.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

I said my piece..
not gonna reply anyone
or argue about it.

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Imagine having so little confidence in your own opinions that you just outright refuse to defend them

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Because I've seen it and a smattering of other people have seen it.

I suppose it depends on how narrowly people wish to define things, but saying it never happens means 0%. If it's even 10%, it's more than that. Then you get into that weird thing in statistics where, because of various interactions, a given % actually has much higher expression. Like I forget the exact number, but the odds of two people in a room having the same day of the year as birthday? You'd think the closer you get to 365, the closer it gets to 100% odds. Maybe half that (~180) should be pretty close to 100% chance. It's something like 30. If you have around 30 people in a room, you have strong odds that two have the same birthday, despite only having 10% of the people you need to canvass the whole year.

So if it's even 10%, that turns out to be pretty prevalent.

In short, the threshold for "prevalent" is still relatively small.

The people who get called out aren't the types to complain on internet forums. They're more likely to just suck it up or to quit the game and move on.

We know it does happen, and that is sufficient.

Also, did I say "being sub-optimal"? I thought I said something like "only healing and not casting any damage spells", which...while TECHNICALLY sub-optimal is akin to saying a person a million dollars in debt is "broke". While technically true, it's not the correct descriptor.

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Somehow skipped over this, but here goes.

I already said that I'll grant you that it does happen, but how often does it happen? In this thread, you and one other person claimed to have seen it often enough to take note of it, I and a few others have claimed to have barely ever seen it happen. Which claim has more weight? We're not here to talk imaginary hypothetical statistics, if there's no proof that people are being bullied in high enough numbers to be a concern, then it shouldn't be taken into account when designing jobs. Seeing as you agree with another poster that we should have a simple job so people don't get bullied for not using their full kit, burden of proof is on you that people are getting bullied enough for this to be a major consideration.

Just because something can happen rarely, doesn't mean it should be a major consideration in design. Besides, bullying is already covered under ToS, just report them, don't have to design an entire job around someone afraid of being called out for anything.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Somehow skipped over this, but here goes.

I already said that I'll grant you that it does happen, but how often does it happen? In this thread, you and one other person claimed to have seen it often enough to take note of it, I and a few others have claimed to have barely ever seen it happen. Which claim has more weight? We're not here to talk imaginary hypothetical statistics, if there's no proof that people are being bullied in high enough numbers to be a concern, then it shouldn't be taken into account when designing jobs. Seeing as you agree with another poster that we should have a simple job so people don't get bullied for not using their full kit, burden of proof is on you that people are getting bullied enough for this to be a major consideration.

Just because something can happen rarely, doesn't mean it should be a major consideration in design. Besides, bullying is already covered under ToS, just report them, don't have to design an entire job around someone afraid of being called out for anything.

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Where are people finding these supposed bullies in large numbers

I swapped to PC yesterday from console and tried out MKB in lapis manulis, I somehow messed up my keybinds so badly I had physis 2 on the left arrow key rather than camera pan, I had to stop for like 5 minutes to reset them and I basically just got “UWU you are trying your best”, I mean I was embarrassed for my own performance but if some like like that isn’t evoking anyone’s ire what are these people doing

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Where are people finding these supposed bullies in large numbers

I swapped to PC yesterday from console and tried out MKB in lapis manulis, I somehow messed up my keybinds so badly I had physis 2 on the left arrow key rather than camera pan, I had to stop for like 5 minutes to reset them and I basically just got “UWU you are trying your best”, I mean I was embarrassed for my own performance but if some like like that isn’t evoking anyone’s ire what are these people doing

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There are 2 main arguments against damage spells that baffle me.

First is the argument that healers will get called out more if the damage kit is expanded upon because it'll slow down the dungeon if they don't use the full kit and people will complain. People don't even speak in dungeons right now, why would people go out of their way to complain about something they'd only know about if they were watching the healer's castbar like a hawk?

Second is the argument that adding damage spells will cause healers to not heal during burst windows. Like, a bad tank is one that doesn't mitigate, right? So a bad healer is one that doesn't heal when needed. So why can't we just call the healers who refuse to heal during their burst a bad healer and move on?

One argument I can at least understand is that if someone is unable to utilise their full kit effectively, they'd feel bad. But I'd argue that they should just get better at the game and feel good about finally mastering their job of choice.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Some people are good at healing and managing people's health bars but really not good at doing DPS rotations. So more healing requirements wouldn't phase them while more damage buttons/a damage rotation more complex than the present would.
The "low end of the skill floor" has no trouble pressing Medica over and over again.

Adding an even more annoying version of a thing I already dislike; an upkeep DoT that is boring and has no useful or interesting interaction and would have to completely change the kit to be given one.
It's not good enough because people have a damned love affair with DoTs for some reason; the single kind of damage spell I hate most in all of gaming.

But that the change would require a severe reduction in its APM - to WHM levels

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Here we go again

- Also, the 'low end of the skill floor' absolutely has trouble pressing Medica over and over again. Because they press Medica 2 over and over again, overwriting the HOT and using the 'less up-front healing potency' move compared to Medica 1 or Cure 3. Besides that, you know Medica's got an egregious MP cost, right? MP management would come back in full force and I'd expect at least one wipe because of 'oops I ran out of MP'. Of course, I guess the SE brand solution to that is to absolutely drown everyone in Piety on gear

- You're basically no-selling any and all suggestions based entirely on your opinion on certain design elements as if you speak for the whole playerbase. Not everyone is bad with DOTs. I am, but I still put more DOTs on SCH, and I'd still try SCH. How would I ever improve at DOT management if I never try a job that has any? As an aside, I wasn't actually that bad at DOT management in SB, so it could be argued that, for me at least, the 'hands off press once and ignore for 30s' nature of the one DOT we have left, has caused that 'muscle' to atrophy and wither because of how little use it sees

- So it's not actually anything to do with the complexity of the damage rotation, but the kit as a whole? Which means that, I can actually add more to the damage rotation with healer design pitches, I just have to make sure to counterbalance it by making other parts of the kit more simple? EG, WHM can have more damage buttons (just a little), but in return it's healing has to be super simple, potentially even more simple than it currently is? For example, merging Medica 1 into Medica 2, so the average Med2 spammer automatically receives the benefit of Med1's extra potency, or making Cure 1 upgrade into Cure 2 (keeping Cure1's MP cost), so that people don't feel the need to use a lower potency heal to trigger the Freecure trait (instead, spamming Cure2 could give the proc if they really want to keep the damn thing)

Let's run a hypothetical. Imagine a dungeon boss. it autoattacks the tank and it does raidwides. As a demonstration of this 'increased healing required', in your opinion, how often should those raidwides occur, and how much damage should they do? Exact numbers please, no feelycraft 'often enough to require GCD healing', I want an exact number of seconds and damage value (can be rounded to the nearest thousand, eg 10k)

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I would. Please do go and play AST in Deep Dungeon content solo.

That has been my experience for a good year and so playing this game.

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I feel like AST needs more than it has, but also not because it's kit is meant to be based around buffing allies, hence I'd make Minor Arcana a bigger part of the kit. Like, if SE added some kind of second DOT that lasted less than 30s (say 15) I'd be like 'ok, it doesn't exactly solve AST's issues but thanks I guess', so I'd rather they looked at making the cards more a focus of the kit (and by doing so, redistributing the APM out of the burst window and spreading it across the full 2min loop). Not sure if every AST agrees with that take (probably not) but it's the take I'm going with

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Originally Posted by Aravell

First is the argument that healers will get called out more if the damage kit is expanded upon because it'll slow down the dungeon if they don't use the full kit and people will complain. People don't even speak in dungeons right now, why would people go out of their way to complain about something they'd only know about if they were watching the healer's castbar like a hawk?

Second is the argument that adding damage spells will cause healers to not heal during burst windows. Like, a bad tank is one that doesn't mitigate, right? So a bad healer is one that doesn't heal when needed. So why can't we just call the healers who refuse to heal during their burst a bad healer and move on?

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1: Healers don't get called out for 'doing their rotation wrong' or whatever, they get called out when they don't do their damage at all. Nobody would care if you pressed Glare instead of Banish. A few vocal nuisances who feel like piping up about to make a mountain out of a molehill, will make statement if you just stop pressing Glare entirely, in favour of standing still and casting nothing in it's place. You could probably do a dungeon boss with just pressing Dia and its very unlikely anyone will make mention of it, they've got their own gameplay to worry about

2: There's a raidwide+bleed cast in P10S that lines up exactly with a burst window, I can't remember if it's the 4min or 6min (if it's the 6min that's even funnier because that'd be most people's 2nd pot window). Anyone who sees that damage coming in and goes 'I will not be pressing Rapture because this is the burst window' probably has already done the maths on whether they need to in the first place (ie they're good enough at the game to have that gamesense). Anyone who is not up to that skill level is going to just play it safe and use the heal. I play it safe and use the Raptures, sometimes two of them. I don't see how 'casual player' is going to suddenly get parsebrain because they have one or two extra buttons that, when used optimally, gain them potentially tiny amounts of potency. It's not like we see casual players causing wipes left and right because 'oops use all my Flows on Energy Drain so no Indom teehee' is it

As a personal anecdote, nobody gave me flak when I went AST for my weekly P12S reclear and absolutely beefed it on almost everything. Cards played basically on CD instead of pooled for 2min, probably drifted Divination by several GCDs over the duration of the fight, used several GCD heals that were probably not needed if I had managed my OGCDs better. Apologized after we cleared for being so out of practice, zero 'you were bad' and several 'np we cleared its all good'. Doesn't count though cos it's 'anecdotal evidence' /s

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

There's a raidwide+bleed cast in P10S that lines up exactly with a burst window, I can't remember if it's the 4min or 6min (if it's the 6min that's even funnier because that'd be most people's 2nd pot window).

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It's 4 minutes in. Also, it was a lot funnier in P6S, every 2 minutes was a Hemitheos Dark IV and a Chelic Synergy, so tanks and healers have to weave their mitigations and heals within burst every single time.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It's 4 minutes in. Also, it was a lot funnier in P6S, every 2 minutes was a Hemitheos Dark IV and a Chelic Synergy, so tanks and healers have to weave their mitigations and heals within burst every single time.

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...and those were the most alive 2min intervals I ever had as a Dark Knight. Restructuring in what order I press my mitigations and my damage buttons to get the most value out of my mitigation while avoiding drift were the absolute best.

I'd like MORE of that. Hell don't limit my active damage presses to 2min windows, make it more frequent and irregular (non 30/60/120s) and absolutely BULLY me by having to weave mitigation along with it.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Here we go again

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Everytime you miss a damage GCD, a kitten cries. I hope you feel bad =(

Man, if pressing Medica over and over again is the 'low end of skill floor', then what do you call that SGE who's having trouble to spam Diagnosis?

Guess we’re going lower than ever as time goes by lol.