Reasonable buff to war

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Ngl, I find it kinda fascinating how many people started complaining about IR in SHB and how simplistic WAR got, while back when these things happened in 4.2, most people were cheering about WAR "feeling so good to play now" and no longer being "clunky".

I'm sure it has nothing to do with SHB WAR no longer enjoying a dps advantage over rest of the tanks...

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This is what has me so bothered. The irrationality of it all. WAR retained most of what people said it was good for back in SB, but all of a sudden "Oh no! We're dead last in DPS by some negible margin! WAR is too boring, too gimped, pls buff yoshi!"

I was repeatedly accused of being biased whenever I said "DRK's fine" during SB because I mained WAR. No, I'm being straight up honest here too:

WAR's fine.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

This is what has me so bothered. The irrationality of it all. WAR retained most of what people said it was good for back in SB, but all of a sudden "Oh no! We're dead last in DPS by some negible margin! WAR is too boring, too gimped, pls buff yoshi!"

I was repeatedly accused of being biased whenever I said "DRK's fine" during SB because I mained WAR. No, I'm being straight up honest here too:

WAR's fine.

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WAR wasn’t fine in SB but there was just enough complexity in their stance dancing to keep them middle interesting. They lost that and gained nothing in ShB that’s the issue.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

WAR wasn’t fine in SB but there was just enough complexity in their stance dancing to keep them middle interesting. They lost that and gained nothing in ShB that’s the issue.

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Complexity? Stance dancing? Did we play the same game? No one really stance danced outside of prog, and even then it was as simple as just waiting until you IB'd for any mechanic. The most complex thing was figuring out which opener to use to get another IR before a certain phase change.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Complexity? Stance dancing? Did we play the same game? No one really stance danced outside of prog, and even then it was as simple as just waiting until you IB'd for any mechanic. The most complex thing was figuring out which opener to use to get another IR before a certain phase change.

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This tbh. WAR didn't really "stance dance" any more than other tanks(or at least DRK, bc on PLD death was almost a preferable option to losing 2 gcds on Shield Oath).

I think removing the old stance mechanic was a stupid idea, because those "training wheels" allowed for more intense active mitigation requirements when aiming for more rDPS(also removing aggro instead of adding depth to it was lazy af), but the "stance dancing" was pretty much a myth.

The biggest difference between (post 4.2)SB and SHB WAR is swapping a bunch of downtime FCs into directcrit ICs and with that making crit/dh buffs(and with them gauge management) even less relevant, but that's really just doubling down on an effect that a lot of people have praised to havens in IR.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Complexity? Stance dancing? Did we play the same game? No one really stance danced outside of prog, and even then it was as simple as just waiting until you IB'd for any mechanic. The most complex thing was figuring out which opener to use to get another IR before a certain phase change.

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Yes, it was imperative for prog and first few clears, after groups finally got to farm they wouldn't stance dance at all. Most would use WAR over other tanks because of its abliity to stance dance with no penalties, this was also essential if you wanted to make prog in Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

WAR wasn’t fine in SB but there was just enough complexity in their stance dancing to keep them middle interesting. They lost that and gained nothing in ShB that’s the issue.

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I mean, it would have been nice if stance dancing was a thing. It certainly had a lot of potential to become something of interest in fights that would both require high mitigation and high damage output from tanks.

But, those haven't really existed. There's no damage a tank can deal that can't just be dealt by someone else, and very, very few moments by which the added healer damage from costly tank mitigation could outweigh the tank damage lost. It'd require a whole tier higher of difficulty, or some obviously punishing mechanic like Deep Damage (closest analogs being Supplication's Max HP reduction or some measure of Vulnerability) when taking critical damage at all.

Alas, it was just a brief period of training wheels. It held virtually no spot in optimization.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

This is what has me so bothered. The irrationality of it all. WAR retained most of what people said it was good for back in SB, but all of a sudden "Oh no! We're dead last in DPS by some negible margin! WAR is too boring, too gimped, pls buff yoshi!"

I was repeatedly accused of being biased whenever I said "DRK's fine" during SB because I mained WAR. No, I'm being straight up honest here too:

WAR's fine.

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Because not everyone was cheering the changes back then. There were tons of threads with people on both sides hashing it out forever and theres still a lot of posts to this day that want the old zerk ir system back. But people like to horribly over generalize so now its this black and white, zero nuance meme of a narrative that you soelled out.

War used to have more to play around. War used their stances far more often. The fact that the 99 percentile speed runners didnt doesnt mean most raiders didnt. War had crit from gauge that gave people 1 more thing to optimize around. This had trickle down effects into how you use onslaught and made optimal rotations very fight specific and a puzzle to figure out that changed from fight to fight and what buffs your raid had. There was synergy between skills. Tob, defiance, unchained, upheaval made for some interesting combinations working to line them up to gain the offensive and defensive effects at the same time.

They are all small things, but thats what nuanced gameplay is. Small tweaks. Tiny adjustments. None of them were dramatic stuff that made your parse gor from grey to gold, but they all were subtle things to manage and try to optimize. So, yes, when you remove all the nuance from a job, people say it feels bland and thats not the double standard you are trying to make it out to be.. When you make sweeping hyperbolic claims like 'everyone loved IR change and now they hate it' of course it sounds like a nice zinger, but just like the current version of warrior, it lacks nuance and depth and ends up psounding pretty hollow.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

They are all small things, but thats what nuanced gameplay is. Small tweaks. Tiny adjustments. None of them were dramatic stuff that made your parse gor from grey to gold, but they all were subtle things to manage and try to optimize. So, yes, when you remove all the nuance from a job, people say it feels bland and thats not the double standard you are trying to make it out to be.. When you make sweeping hyperbolic claims like 'everyone loved IR change and now they hate it' of course it sounds like a nice zinger, but just like the current version of warrior, it lacks nuance and depth and ends up psounding pretty hollow.

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What you seem to describe, these tiny differences, mirror splitting hairs more than they do optimization. I'm absolutely confident that's not what most people are concerned with when they complain about WAR. I can tell you already, if WAR was number 1 in dps charts, most theses complaints threads would magically disappear into thin air, leaving only the overly-concerned with too much idle time on their hands.

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Originally Posted by shao32

well holmgang duration is going to be buffed, meaby WARs are going to make a diference again.

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Holm will still be the weakest of all tank "invulns".

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Originally Posted by Hierro

What you seem to describe, these tiny differences, mirror splitting hairs more than they do optimization. I'm absolutely confident that's not what most people are concerned with when they complain about WAR. I can tell you already, if WAR was number 1 in dps charts, most theses complaints threads would magically disappear into thin air, leaving only the overly-concerned with too much idle time on their hands.

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You can be 'absolutely confodent thats not what people are concerned about' all you want. I am people and thats exactly what im concerned about, and i have seen many posts over the years from people that agree with me. Not everyone does, but you seem committed to this broad stroke generalization about wars and what they want, so be as confident as you like. It doesnt make it true.