Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

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Originally Posted by Tempest222

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I mostly posted this to just get some frustration out. I know they'll always exist. I was just getting annoyed with the times it was happening because of the responses I'd get trying to help, as a person with the Mentor status no less (Really, wow. A Mentor that tried to explain in a nice way how mechanics work? They exist?) It makes me not want to do the mission anymore, and I'm sure people don't want their tanks leaving them behind mid dungeon because they didn't enjoy spending 10 minutes killing the first boss.

@OP: mostly because there's no way in hell I'm going to accept being held to the impulsive standards of my fellow online gamers because they've frequently shown their inability to not sperg out at the drop of a hat.
They want a baseline, assumptive "standard" to expect from people, but that's never going to work because people don't come from the same backgrounds or acquire the same skillsets.
Historically the bulk of them have shown a habit of hyperbolic expectations, reactions, and perceptions of things.

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet? why would I ever trust you to restrain yourself when concocting an excuse to not take groups on an individual basis? I don't have to clear high-end content. it's just another thing to do on the list. I can even play something else if I hit a wall. meeting your standards is as unnecessary as the content you want to police my performance in.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet?

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There ya go, you didn't read the OP at all. It looks that you are using this thread to vent your frustrations, more than anything. I understand that, but I'd advice you to read it again, carefully. No one here is demanding what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

There ya go, you didn't read the OP at all. It looks that you are using this thread to vent your frustrations, more than anything. I understand that, but I'd advice you to read it again, carefully. No one here is demanding what you're saying.

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eh, you're right on that part(I read it after) and for that I'll apologize for just whining all over the place. but if you do look at the OP's examples, everything is a pretty exaggerated scenario. exceedingly basic, shorthand examples with few details and particularly bad practices. these players do exist but the examples are pretty hyperbolic.

what I'm getting at is that people who do that are not people whose standards I would put myself in service to.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

@OP: mostly because there's no way in hell I'm going to accept being held to the impulsive standards of my fellow online gamers because they've frequently shown their inability to not sperg out at the drop of a hat.
They want a baseline, assumptive "standard" to expect from people. . . .Historically the bulk of them have shown a habit of hyperbolic expectations, reactions, and perceptions of things.

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet? why would I ever trust you to restrain yourself when concocting an excuse to not take groups on an individual basis? . . . .meeting your standards is as unnecessary as the content you want to police my performance in.

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Not to be rude or anything, but it’s highly ironic that you’re talking about elitist attitudes when your post reeks of its own type of elitism....

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

if you do look at the OP's examples, everything is a pretty exaggerated scenario. exceedingly basic, shorthand examples with few details and particularly bad practices. these players do exist but the examples are pretty hyperbolic.

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I’m not sure how much you have frequented the OF, but I would highly recommend reading The Tales of the Duty Finder thread. While they’re all personal experiences, I feel like the thread probably does a decent enough job of proving that the types of players OP has mentioned in his opening post do exist—probably in larger numbers than you think.

If you want more quantifiable examples that are not a personal account, I would suggest just browsing the lowest percentiles on a certain website that everyone here loves to hate. People dislike parses and logs, but they certainly don’t lie.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

What a great mindset you have. No wonder people stop helping others.

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There's going to be subpar players no matter what you do, and those players can be subpar for any number of reasons. I'm not arrogant enough to think I can solve their problems or think that I deserve to only play with people who meet whatever arbitrary standard I've set for them. I never said don't help if you can, but the sooner you accept that you can't change the world/human nature the better off you'll be.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

or think that I deserve to only play with people who meet whatever arbitrary standard I've set for them.

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To be fair the standard of a tank tanking, a healer healing, and a DPS trying to do damage is set by the game not us.

Otherwise why does the game even have the roles: Healer, Tank, DPS? There would be no point if the game was not forcing a specific standard.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

@OP: mostly because there's no way in hell I'm going to accept being held to the impulsive standards of my fellow online gamers because they've frequently shown their inability to not sperg out at the drop of a hat.
They want a baseline, assumptive "standard" to expect from people, but that's never going to work because people don't come from the same backgrounds or acquire the same skillsets.
Historically the bulk of them have shown a habit of hyperbolic expectations, reactions, and perceptions of things.

...why the hell would I ever consent to being held to any of your standards, random elitists on the internet? why would I ever trust you to restrain yourself when concocting an excuse to not take groups on an individual basis? I don't have to clear high-end content. it's just another thing to do on the list. I can even play something else if I hit a wall. meeting your standards is as unnecessary as the content you want to police my performance in.

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Congratulations. You have joined the cavalcade of people who lacks basic reading comprehension skills. The OP went out of their way to make this thread as diplomatic as possible, yet you're one throwing around insults. How ironic.

I also didn't realize asking people to press 1-2-3 in sequence required some additional skillset unique to "elitists." I suppose the advance steps will be adding 4-5-6. Wouldn't want to make it too difficult.

Edit: Fair enough on your apology.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not to be rude or anything, but it’s highly ironic that you’re talking about elitist attitudes when your post reeks of its own type of elitism....

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"Distrust" is the impression I was going for. I don't trust people who make hyperbolic judgements enough to allow them to hold me to their standards and you shouldn't either. that goes for my standards as well, you shouldn't allow yourself to be ruled by what I consider acceptable. You have no reason to trust my judgement and I have no reason to trust yours so any of us demanding that the other does is as good a reason to throw the other in the trash as far as I'm concerned.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/n...eply&p=4518489
I’m not sure how much you have frequented the OF, but I would highly recommend reading The Tales of the Duty Finder thread. While they’re all personal experiences, I feel like the thread probably does a decent enough job of proving that the types of players OP has mentioned in his opening post do exist—probably in larger numbers than you think.

If you want more quantifiable examples that are not a personal account, I would suggest just browsing the lowest percentiles on a certain website that everyone here loves to hate. People dislike parses and logs, but they certainly don’t lie.

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I don't frequent the OF and I don't really plan to. I was here reading on another topic linked from Reddit(which I also rarely browse). I'm well aware of these players as I've been a moderately active tank and healer in DF for about 3 years now. but they're easy examples and neither you nor I have any real idea how common they are.

as for FFlogs, the only thing I truly hate about them is that the site compiles my information from other peoples' parses. if the site only showcased the data of the player that uploaded it I'd have zero complaints. it's purely a privacy thing.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Congratulations. You have joined the cavalcade of people who lacks basic reading comprehension skills. The OP went out of their way to make this thread as diplomatic as possible, yet you're one throwing around insults. How ironic.

I also didn't realize asking people to press 1-2-3 in sequence required some additional skillset unique to "elitists." I suppose the advance steps will be adding 4-5-6. Wouldn't want to make it too difficult.

Edit: Fair enough on your apology.

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I'm just the "quick to get heated, quick to cool" sort. I also have some pretty big attention span problems(like lists X_X). I can make quick judgement calls so tanking/healing has been my main thing over the years, but dpsing oftentimes calls for an outright 18 skill opening rotation that I literally cannot juggle all in order. that was one of the reasons I couldn't play HW WAR and played PLD/AST/SCH instead.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

"Distrust" is the impression I was going for. I don't trust people who make hyperbolic judgements enough to allow them to hold me to their standards and you shouldn't either. that goes for my standards as well, you shouldn't allow yourself to be ruled by what I consider acceptable. You have no reason to trust my judgement and I have no reason to trust yours so any of us demanding that the other does is as good a reason to throw the other in the trash as far as I'm concerned.

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The standards I hold myself to and the standards I hold randoms to are as different as night and day. I am far more critical of my own performance than I am of other people’s, unless they start talking big. Then I expect them to have the performance to back it up: if you’re going to talk like your the big man on campus with tons of orange parses under your belt, then I want to see proof that you can live up to what you preach.

My most basic standards vary depending on the content I am in, but generally, in casual content, I expect:
—tanks to hold hate, use their stance (if applicable), and to know their most basic 1-2-3 aggro combo
—healers to heal (and if they are a veteran healer decked out in Savage or high ilvl gear, I expect some juggling of DPS and healing), and not stand around idle for the majority of the duty
—DPS to DPS (I don’t care too much about their rotation [barring examples of things like Ice Mages or BRDs that don’t use their songs], and I don’t expect some optimized opener making use of every oGCD/food/pots or whatever, but I had better see some AOE in a large pull—nothing grinds my gears more than DPS refusing to AOE a pack of 7-8 mobs)

In things like farm parties for Extremes/Savage, my expectations are a little higher. I do not expect orange-parse levels of play, but I do expect a certain level of competency when it comes to completing Extreme/Savage content. If the party is for a farm, I expect the party to farm the fight quickly and efficiently—especially if their PF advertised “fast, quick runs; high DPS; no mistakes or kick” (ironically, it’s usually the PF leader doing the lowest in terms of contribution, and making the most mistakes). I also do not appreciate when people enter into farm parties having either never cleared, or cleared only once and just expect the rest of the group to carry them through the content. You want to farm? Then please pull your weight like the rest of the group.

I’ve asked this many times in the course of this thread, and have never received an answer that was not some illogical tangent or analogy, but what exactly is it about asking players to do the absolute bare minimum required of their job/role that is some incredibly high standard?