When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

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Originally Posted by Miste

Wouldn't that still be a dps loss for MNK even if form shift was oGCD? I don't main MNK so my experience is from HW.

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The what-if scenario is basically this:

Weaponskills are consolidated for all combos. Monk has three separate buttons to choose which attack from which form at your leisure.
Perfect Balance enables you to use Snap Punch, Demolish and Rockbreaker. The "end" of each path.
Using Form Shift during this will turn those three buttons into Bootshine, Dragon Kick, and AoTD. Using any of these will not "advance," forms, instead causing you to need form shift to progress during PB.
In Monk's opener after PB, you do, simplified mind you, Snap->Snap->DK->Twin Snakes->True Strike

The argument was that form shift functioning akin to mudras meant that a Monk could weave in Form Shift between skills during PB in order to achieve the same results as right now. While it would work in theory, all the weaving Monk has to do already throws it out the window. There's also periods where spamming true strike for sheer DPS in PB, assuming you have all your buffs up, is actually a decent move, but it'd be functionally impossible since you'd have to go Snap->DK or BS->True Strike, and in Perfect Balance you can ideally only hit five GCDs per PB. It'd be a DPS loss.

Force everyone to use pvp's new combo system I wouldn't be for but the option to use it I would support. with that said I wouldn't want a 1 for 1 replication of pvp's combo system. In pvp samurai has 3 combos and each combo is a 2 action combo. If I had the option to use pvp's combo system I still would want my pve combo to be my 2 that use 3 actions and my combo that uses 2 actions.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

It'd be a DPS loss.

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Ah, so I guess I sort of had the right conclusion anyway.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Let's completely ignore the fact that Ninjas never double weave during their opener aside from mudras, which you yourself have already acknowledge function differently than the average oGCD. Stop comparing two separate classes, especially when you don't play one of them. Sarcasm is unbecoming.

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Hmmm, I wonder if anyone ever suggested that Form Shift shoud be changed to work like Mudras during Perfect Balance by having no CD and almost no animation...

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Completely 100% your opinion.

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So I guess we could remove all skills then, if oGCD brings nothing to the complexity. Of, how I pity those fool theorycrafters that try to find the best way to rotate their oGCD for nothing...

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Offensive oGCDs only do damage and nothing more.

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Jump does damage and brings you back to your position, SD does damage and is a Gap Closer, Dragonfire Dive does AoE damage...none of those "just do damage".

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Edit: Also by the way, not offensive oGCDs, but you literally use Brotherhood alongside Riddle of Fire every time, so you're wrong there too.

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Unless a spread phase requires that every DPS needs to be more than 15yalms from each other, or if you are isolated from the group by a mechanic...the fact that they happen to have the same CD doesn't create an intrinsic link between those two skills.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Ah, so I guess I sort of had the right conclusion anyway.

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No, it wouldn't since you'd only have to hit FS twice to get to the proper form. And that shifing twice would take the same time as a 2-step jutsu, witch an fit between GCD. Then again, it's already been said that MNK would need more adjustments to fit that system than other linear-combo-jobs. But still, when the next expansion arrives, all jobs will need to relearn ther correct optimal DPS rotation, so you won't "lose" DPS.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hmmm, I wonder if anyone ever suggested that Form Shift shoud be changed to work like Mudras during Perfect Balance by having no CD and almost no animation...

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This does not change the fact that Monk already double weaves before this. Your suggestion means that Monk would have to TRIPLE weave. Even if Form Shift functioned exactly like mudras, it does not change the fact that other oGCDs do not. Just stop it with the pettiness already.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So I guess we could remove all skills then, if oGCD brings nothing to the complexity. Of, how I pity those fool theorycrafters that try to find the best way to rotate their oGCD for nothing...

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An extremity if I've ever read one. The theorycrafter thing is completely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Jump does damage and brings you back to your position, SD does damage and is a Gap Closer, Dragonfire Dive does AoE damage...none of those "just do damage".

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Anyone worth their salt as a DRG will use jump right next to the target, so this is irrelevant. It ultimately only does damage and has animation lock. Spineshatter can be used as a gap closer but ideally and most likely never is, instead being used purely on cooldown for, again, damage. Dragonfire dive doing AoE is the only thing that sets it apart, just like other AoE oGCDs. You could just have two buttons, one for damage and one for AoE, my stance regarding hypocrisy doesn't change. Ultimately though, in most encounters, especially in Savage, it will only be doing single target regardless.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Unless a spread phase requires that every DPS needs to be more than 15yalms from each other, or if you are isolated from the group by a mechanic...the fact that they happen to have the same CD doesn't create an intrinsic link between those two skills.

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If there is a phase that requires all the DPS/Tanks to be more than 15 yalms from each other, or you are isolated, chances are you also aren't DPSing, which means you also aren't using riddle of fire. There is a small handful of situations where you are completely isolated, like timegates in A12S, which is now defunct content. Also, yes, there is an intrinsic link, you can ask any Monk player who's worth their salt and they will tell you that you always RoF with Brotherhood. Though sure, continue to tell someone who plays Monk how those two skills aren't constantly used together, as someone who doesn't even play the class I might add. You're literally grasping at straws at this point.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Improperly. If perfect balance remains the way it is, consolidating the combos is impossible for Monk. You can't select which button to press within the combo unless you have separate buttons for it, like we do now. Good luck convincing SE to even touch Perfect Balance, they haven't in 4 years.

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That, too, was addressed. If Monks are given only 3 slots, by which to choose from among the 3 choices actually usable at any time outside PB, then PB need only adjust Form Shift over its duration as to allow for no-cost (no animation -- none -- no GCD) cycling of those choices.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

That is ultimately irrelevant. Arguing about reducing skills is a half-measure. Skills are just buttons to press the same way each step in a combo is. People are whining that combos should be consolidated because of button bloat. I simply reminded them that anyone can apply "remove <blank>" for button bloat. As it's been repeated multiple times, pressing different buttons in a row is not difficult nor does it require skill, so it means that we don't need multiple buttons for offensive oGCDs either.

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The reason combos were put on that chopping block is because they have literally no other order in which they can be pressed without wrecking themselves. That does not apply to the majority of oGCDs.

Very few oGCDs have obligatory ordering, and only one example (Mirage Dive) stands as nearly as slot-wasteful as any combo.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Adding more offensive oGCDs does not "deepen" the experience either, nor make it more difficult. They've already turned away from buff-happy oGCDs, that's why they got rid of so many crossclasses. Though keep ignoring that point of my post I guess.

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They don't necessarily add complexity, as many oGCDs CD-sync naturally, but not all do sync naturally and those, in turn, add complexity. Whether that complexity then "deepens" the experience for the vast majority of players, however, is indeed debatable. I'd argue that SE's stance is that they do not, and that they'd rather see skill-gap squished, whatever the (job-gutting/-filleting) means necessary.

Luckily, as the devs find themselves obliged to add 3+ abilities per expansion yet continue to ignore bloat in combo jobs, they'll have more and more excuse to get rid of real tools on those classes! (Why make Heavy Thrust interesting when you can just axe it too? Can't combine F&C and WT, though, or people will know they just basically got the same ability twice when we ran out of ideas, let alone make them into real and separate options. Heck, it's not like people need Jump; it just adds periodic damage, and didn't we just say before SB that we wanted DoTs gone for similar reasons of artificial-yet-skill-gap-inducing difficulty?)

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Originally Posted by Oscura

If there is a phase that requires all the DPS/Tanks to be more than 15 yalms from each other, or you are isolated, chances are you also aren't DPSing, which means you also aren't using riddle of fire.

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So, I guess you never stand at the center of the room to keep DPSsing Alte Roite while everybody spreads for Levinbolts...or stay close to Halicarnassus while the other DPS have to move to fill other DPS squares so that they're out of range and thus, potentially wasting Brotherhood...or staying close to Catastrophe to put a tentacle while other DPS have to stay away to place other tentacles and can't DPS...

But I guess three main mechanics in Savage are only straws...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That, too, was addressed. If Monks are given only 3 slots, by which to choose from among the 3 choices actually usable at any time outside PB, then PB need only adjust Form Shift over its duration as to allow for no-cost (no animation, no GCD) cycling of those choices.

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Read what I said about triple weaving.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Luckily, as the devs find themselves obliged to add 3+ abilities per expansion yet continue to ignore bloat in combo jobs, they'll have more and more excuse to get rid of real tools on those classes! (Why make Heavy Thrust interesting when you can just axe it too?

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Heavy Thrust is a useless button and I've said that since 2.0, so I'm going to have to disagree with you there entirely, regarding "real tools."

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, I guess you never stand at the center of the room to keep DPSsing Alte Roite while everybody spreads for Levinbolts...or stay close to Halicarnassus while the other DPS have to move to fill other DPS squares so that they're out of range and thus, potentially wasting Brotherhood...or staying close to Catastrophe to put a tentacle while other DPS have to stay away to place other tentacles and can't DPS...

But I guess three main mechanics in Savage are only straws...

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This might actually blow your mind, but if you play Monk properly neither two none of these things will ever be an issue. The only people who influence Brotherhood are people who do physical DPS, which is every melee in the game, every tank, bard and machinist. If Alte Roite is in the middle the distance between the middle and the edge is roughly 15y, you can ask any Red Mage to confirm that one. (The joke is that Red Mages have in the past constantly jumped off to their demise because they actually overshoot it, despite displacement's back jump being 15y.) So you shouldn't have to wait and should be able to hit everyone with Brotherhood regardless. For Hali, my tanks, the other melee and our bard stands within 15y so that brotherhood will work, and there are often times where I can't even Brotherhood at all because I already used it prior, making this point moot. As for placing tentacles, if you're doing it right, the four tentacles being placed in cardinal directions shouldn't even be 10y away from each other, let alone 15. I can hit everyone just fine with Brotherhood. Healers and casters be damned, because it does not influence them and they do not contribute toward my chakra count at all, aside from very situational Red Mage nonsense. Again, you are reaching.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

An extremity if I've ever read one. The theorycrafter thing is completely irrelevant.

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Your whole argument here has been based on the idea that once order of use is determined, then no one in their right mind (despite the potential for the unexpected to occur, or for mistakes) would use them outside of that order, meaning that they would not then be actual choices. If it can be theorycrafted to varying results... it has choices.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

This does not change the fact that Monk already double weaves before this. Your suggestion means that Monk would have to TRIPLE weave. Even if Form Shift functioned exactly like mudras, it does not change the fact that other oGCDs do not. Just stop it with the pettiness already.

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Don't worry; since you've already combined all their oGCDs, your inability to effectively queue same-slot keys into each other has already made it impossible to double-weave in most cases, and player aggravation over held keys automatically performing each stacked skills consecutively when not intended has already caused the majority of surviving Monks to swap. (I mean, SE surely couldn't ever, regardless of advisement or call to sanity, get GCD swapping right, so why would they do oGCDs correctly?)

Alternatively... they learn how to actually animation-stack, or give Form Shift no animation.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Anyone worth their salt as a DRG will use jump right next to the target, so this is irrelevant.

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So, because the skill is most often used in the manner that carries the least opportunity for creative use, rather than further allowing creative use of the skill, we should only ever treat it as "just damage"? At that point, why have it at all? They already axed most sources of DoT damage as being just 'artificial difficulty via inflexible periodic use with a disproportionate effect on skill-gap.'

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Originally Posted by Oscura

If there is a phase that requires all the DPS/Tanks to be more than 15 yalms from each other, or you are isolated, chances are you also aren't DPSing, which means you also aren't using riddle of fire. There is a small handful of situations where you are completely isolated, like timegates in A12S, which is now defunct content. Also, yes, there is an intrinsic link, you can ask any Monk player who's worth their salt and they will tell you that you always RoF with Brotherhood. Though sure, continue to tell someone who plays Monk how those two skills aren't constantly used together, as someone who doesn't even play the class I might add. You're literally grasping at straws at this point.

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And my BV tends to time into WM. That certainly doesn't mean I want them bound together. God help me if I want to recover from an PB-RB spam via Purification, which has no reason to fall inside my RoF window, or want to hold off on BH until the NIN's alive, but don't want to lose a cast of RoF over the fight.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Read what I said about triple weaving.

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Third time's the charm, I hope:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That, too, was addressed. If Monks are given only 3 slots, by which to choose from among the 3 choices actually usable at any time outside PB, then PB need only adjust Form Shift over its duration as to allow for no-cost (no animation -- none -- no GCD) cycling of those choices.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Heavy Thrust is a useless button and I've said that since 2.0, so I'm going to have to disagree with you there entirely, regarding "real tools."

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Again:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

(Why make Heavy Thrust interesting when you can just axe it too?) <sarcasm>

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At present, sure; Heavy Thrust, like current Straight Shot or (good god) Hot Shot, is a shitty ability. But why would you rather axe something with the potential to be more over, say, condensing combos, wherein 6+ slots are literally unusable in any given GCD? Why enforce stacked oGCDs over that, rather than just making them an option?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Your whole argument here has been based on the idea that once order of use is determined, then no one in their right mind (despite the potential for the unexpected to occur, or for mistakes) would use them outside of that order, meaning that they would not then be actual choices. If it can be theorycrafted to varying results... it has choices.

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Theorycrafting to varying results doesn't change the fact that only the greatest result is the correct one. You can argue in circles all day about that one.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Don't worry; since you've already combined all their oGCDs, your inability to effectively queue same-slot keys into each other has already made it impossible to double-weave in most cases, and player aggravation over held keys automatically performing each stacked skills consecutively when not intended has already caused the majority of surviving Monks to swap. (I mean, SE surely couldn't ever, regardless of advisement or call to sanity, get GCD swapping right, so why would they do oGCDs correctly?)

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The combining oGCDs was to point out hypocritical it is to immediately assume that it is absolute fact that combos should be consolidated based on what is in reality sheer convenience and desire. It is not a fact that combos should be consolidated, just as it's not a fact that oGCDs should be. So most of this is irrelevant to the original argument of "if you had all your oGCDs but tried to weave in with form shift." Also, SE being incompetent isn't my problem.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, because the skill is most often used in the manner that carries the least opportunity for creative use, rather than further allowing creative use of the skill, we should only ever treat it as "just damage"? At that point, why have it at all?

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I don't know, aesthetic? It's not my fault you can't auto attack or do weapon skills if you decide to Jump anywhere not in front of your target.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And my BV tends to time into WM. That certainly doesn't mean I want them bound together. God help me if I want to recover from an PB-RB spam via Purification, which has no reason to fall inside my RoF window, or want to hold off on BH until the NIN's alive, but don't want to lose a cast of RoF over the fight.

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Never said I want Brotherhood or Riddle of Fire bound together. I was simply replying to the part of the post that said oGCDs are never used consistently or always in tandem. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you need purification to recover from doing your AoE you're playing Monk wrong. There's a reason every Monk player calls the skill near-useless. Also, casting BH despite a dead NIN is still a DPS increase (unless you're running two casters, but you should know better as a Monk player) because it still means more chances for possible forbidden chakras during the RoF window. Missing out on what could potentially be 2 or 3 forbidden chakras inside of a RoF window vs hitting 3 or 4 outside of it is no joke.

Regarding triple weaving: Even if form shift had no animation, it does not change the fact that latency can still apply to it. People still have issues with Mudra lag to this day despite the fact that it's far faster than the average oGCD, and after they fixed it too. It is still triple weaving.

Regarding Heavy Thrust: I don't care. Even if they consolidated combos, I still think it's a trash ability, have always thought it was a trash ability, and I would not be opposed to it being thrown in the trash where it belongs. Nothing will change my opinion. Just accept the fact we disagree on it and move on. I'm not "enforcing oGCD" stacking, as I already said prior in this post, I was simply pointing out that people are simply asking for combo consolidation based on convenience and then posting it as if it's a fact, that it's convenient for all and that no one will suffer from this, that it will do nothing but good things for everyone's experience, etc. I do not mind people saying, "combo consolidation would be awesome," but I do mind people saying, "combo consolidation is what this game needs, and if you disagree you don't know how to read/don't understand/need to reread this post until you do agree."

Seems like you really took what you could skim-read from my posts and rolled with it.