Black Mage

This patch they changed shake it off AND tribind, yet we are still dealing with freeze beign totally useless or scathe nigh useless and you llugen have given a valid idea on how to improve it.
Honestly I don't agree with all the proposed changes in the lists but it's something to work with, also I don't think you mean to add them all

edit: What if umbral hearts also allow you to cast astral fire spells with the speed buff you get from beign in umbral?

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Originally Posted by Llugen

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You're missing the point. Let me make it clearer.
Due to its inherent design, Black Mage will always be one of the worst (if not the worst) job in this game for progression.
Even if we had a rez with no cooldown, this wouldn't change (and what, you're gonna sacrifice one of your mobility tools to rez? What if you can't wait until UI, gonna got your AF phase and tank your dps?). SMN and RDM would still be better at rezzing, would still be more mobile and likely much better in progression.

As things are now, you can progress with BLM. You're on the back foot and need to put in extra work, but it can be done, and has been done.
To make this job a good candidate for progression, you need a lot of changes, some of which are fundamental changes to how BLM plays. If we go down this path, it'll take far too long, and it's not even that likely that it'll turn out well (SMN had a lot of deep changes that initially backfired so...).

Your alternative is accept that the job is suboptimal for progression and turn towards other things it can bring- damage, making it a good candidate for efficient farming/speedkilling once content is past progression.
This is much easier to achieve. You pump its numbers, or you give it synergistic offensive utility- or both.
It's easy to return the potency lost on the IV spells, it's easy to buff other spells, it's easy to extend T3 duration, it's easy to make Enochian 20% damage like Ofillomen said and it's also an interesting idea to tack a magic vuln onto B4 (which will also push caster-centric comps into the spotlight, which hasn't happened since what, 1.X when people stacked BLM?).
A raw single target dps that can compete with the other dpsers is also a less explored design space. SAM was looking ok in 4.0 before they decided to start buffing BRD/MCH/DRG out of control as usual.

This is why, imho, you just can't make this job work competitively for bleeding edge progression. The fact you need to predict mechanics in advance to stay put as often as possible or align your cds perfectly with troublesome mechanics (this on top of a layer or rng that makes your AF/UI cycles oscillate with up to 8s of variance in their duration) and the fact that you often rely on your team (be it for Aetherial or to stay god knows where so you can stay put, potentially forcing healers to adjust their positions) means that BLM is always iffy for progression- possible to pull it off, but harder and more time consuming. Rez or no rez, this won't change. So just go down the easier route of increasing its damage potential. That's what I was getting at.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

dont agree, Bliz IV is a dps lose and needs fixing from the ground up

besides that, imo T3 should give the magic vulnerability... (unless they fix BIV, so it makes sense to use it either way)

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This is only conditionally true, and we're talking a ~1.6pps difference which results in less than 1% dps. The 5xF4 AF cycle that bypasses B4 can only be used if you have 5seconds on your Foul clock with a Foul charge and get a TC proc or an instant tick going into UI. If these conditions are met, you can bypass B4 and go into a 5xF4 AF which nets you the discussed 1% dps gain. This is extreme min/maxing, and you're still going to use B4 like 90% of the time to play optimally.
Understand that a 1.6pps gain is very minimal, and if you time something wrong and go into UI with 0 mana and no Foul/TC proc, it takes literally less than half a second waiting for the mana tick to make this strategy a dps loss. In doubt, it's always better to be conservative and use B4. Some mechanics (Forced March in O3 and hysteria in O4) will gradually accrue Foul clock time and allow you to do this three or four times, but it's actually not significant as things stand.

Did... did you even read my post? Why are you obsessing so hard over raise? I mentioned it once in a veritable mountain of suggestions, and in case you didn’t pay attention yet again, my proposal is for it to be off GCD and cost nothing. This would NOT affect its output at all outside of clipping if you aren’t smart about it.

BLM perhaps should be tough for progression but right now it’s just TOO far behind, and that needs addressing.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Did... did you even read my post? Why are you obsessing so hard over raise? I mentioned it once in a veritable mountain of suggestions, and in case you didn’t pay attention yet again, my proposal is for it to be off GCD and cost nothing. This would NOT affect its output at all outside of clipping if you aren’t smart about it.

BLM could be tough for progession but right now it’s just TOO far behind and it needs addressed.

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I'm responding to a post a few pages back, not the last one. And the idea is about progression in general.
It's not like you can't progress with BLM, which is what you're making it sound like. I did it. It was hard, but feasible.
What I'm stating is that you need to change the job deeply to make it much better at progression.
If Ultimate is as hard as Gordias was on 3.0, the value of raw dps is also heightened due to tighter checks, so it's just better to look towards raising it's damage potential (single or synergistic) to make it better at killing things fast.

But I did read your most recent post, and your very suggestions highlight all of this. Many of them are pretty extreme, and most don't even heighten the damage potential of BLM. Many of them make no difference. For instance, Convert isn't a considerably dps gain at all now. Its power was the synergy with Raging Srikes, that we lost. Spells being free in UI also does nothing, because you're always going to cast the same spells in UI (B4/T3/Foul) and you don't have mana issues with these now. You don't need a stasis to keep AF/UI in downtime because you can already transpose to get Foul ticking. Dragging the Ley Lines towards you is much worse than what current Between the Lines does, as having it on a certain location helps you completely evade some mechanics with one magic button. Anything that extends timers just makes the job easier to play, and not actually stronger when executed perfectly. Free F4 doesn't extend the overall AF timer. There's other stuff, but most of these are so "out there"- why not something simple like adjusting the numbers and getting the magic vulnerability only? (Which admittedly you do have there, amidst a sea of... "questionable" suggestions).

Unless the stars align and you can do one specific thing inside a really specific scenario, Blizzard IV is not a dps loss so be careful assuming it just is. Doesn't mean Blizzard IV and Umbral Hearts aren't a bad mechanic, because they are. It barely rewards you anything while making your rotation tighter inside buff timings.

Just because you have no imagination or can't see how the suggestions would affect damage does not make them bad:
-Thundercloud refreshing the Astral/Umbral timer would mean not needing to cast Fire to refresh it which would mean more potency per Astral Fire phase with another Fire IV.
-Spells in Umbral Ice costing no MP would mean no longer needing to line up with server MP ticks which are a huge pain at times and can completely negate the importance of spell speed as a stat (If you're waiting .3 seconds to cast Fire III so you don't clip your MP then there goes your "extra casts from having high spell speed" logic right there).
-Thundercloud being additive rather than refreshing the timer would mean that never is any potency lost from any Thundercloud used below 36 seconds on the timer (unless the target dies), but this alone would be a MASSIVE potency buff, since you'd no longer be clipping your own Thunder at 9 seconds because your Thundercloud proc is about to run out, AND it would mean more chances at more procs, and potentially no longer needing to cast Thunder III in more Umbral Ice phases.
-Foul potency increase by 10% per Polyglot not only rewards good play but addresses issues with enmity at the pull and gives even more incentive to keep Astral/Umbral, and is, of course, a potency increase that is more dynamic than just "oh here let's make it 1300". They could even make the ticks on the UI gauge glow to indicate that you're "still charging".
-Firestarter "combo" from Fire > Fire III > Fire IV would be particularly compelling since if your Thunder timer was already up at close to 60 seconds you wouldn't bother with Sharpcast Thunder III (which would definitely be better to do with the proposed Thundercloud timer change)


Anything that helps with movement ALSO helps with damage, because a BLM that can stand perfectly immobile does pretty well, but mechanics (and of course progression) dictate that this cannot happen. Again, some classes will be better for progression than others, this is only natural, but I'll reiterate that it's just so far behind that it's discouraging both to the players of the class and to the groups looking for casters. Raising that floor with things like a raise and higher mobility through various adjustments would go a lot further than it seems on the surface. To continue with my Thundercloud refreshing example, that would mean using the Thundercloud to move AND not having to worry about refreshing Astral with a Fire spell. The transpose juggling window is doable but unforgiving and still rather small, plus the proposed "meditate" could make sure you're in either Astral or Umbral depending on which you want for the scenario.



I don't like the idea of flat adjustment to potency. Not only are flat adjustments boring but easily breakable, as we have clearly seen with Summoner since 4.08 (when the dot ticks were increased from 40 to 50). What seemed like an insignificant change resulted in the class being insanely strong coupled with the other changes. They are the very definition of "a band-aid fix" and goes into the logic of "if we give more potency per spell then they can do more damage which means the damage sacrificed while moving is less overall" and that's not addressing the real issue.

Thinking outside the box, I find, is simultaneously more rewarding, interesting, and adapts the strategy more than just "oh we'll give it 20 potency." For example, giving +10% damage to spells using Umbral Hearts would mean FOR SURE that you want to use Fire IV on them and not Sharpcast Fire, and also keep your Umbral rotation pretty standard since you'll want those 3 10%s whether or not you get the full duration of the Astral phase.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Personally, I feel like none of these actually address the issue. BRD/MCH provide too much damage. saying they need to provide their own piercing debuff changes nothing, and you would STILL bring a bard and a machinist.They are too strong in their current form in terms of both offense AND defense. The same goes for ninja, trick attack needs significant changes, threat tools need to not be an exclusive utility. DRG also provides a lot, it's not on the same level of absurdity of NIN/BRD/MCH but it is very powerful and would still be desired even if ranged physical was very weak. Summoner is now approaching this level of strength as well with the recent buffs. And monk is not very far behind in terms of damage contribution while also being very strong in prog with fists/riddle of earth and mantra.

So we have 4 very strong jobs, and monk which depending on your composition can also be on this higher tier of contribution.

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Saying that Fists/Riddle of Earth makes monk more survivable is outright false, it's just by and far the worse way of maintaining a buff in the game, especially when compared to spamming transpose and hitting Enochian to maintain Enochian and your Umbral Hearts. The only time it ever saw use this tier is Exfaust during The Decisive Battle. Plus, it can actively be detrimental, in Shinryu EX you're basically forced to get a vulnerability stack from his charge if you want to keep your stacks. Mantra's value is also extremely questionable, it only effects healing spells rather than abilities when the majority of the healing done is done in rapid bursts with abilities rather than spells.

Saying Monk is even comparable to the contribuation of MCH/BRD/NIN/DRG is also pretty laughable. Monk's damage contribution is relatively low for how weakly Brotherhood buffs the party.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Saying that Fists/Riddle of Earth makes monk more survivable is outright false

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I talked about this ability in the setting of progression, meaning you don't necessarily need to use it for GL refreshing, it's used because its a 20% defensive boost. To say that is "outright false" is grossly underselling one of the strongest parts of monks toolkits and its viability in progression.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Saying Monk is even comparable to the contribuation of MCH/BRD/NIN/DRG is also pretty laughable. Monk's damage contribution is relatively low for how weakly Brotherhood buffs the party.

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In an optimized party, monks personal damage is very high, and in the reasonably popular and strong triple melee composition brotherhood is well utilized and you will find you might be surprised when you actually break down how much damage monks are doing.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Mantra's value is also extremely questionable

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And this is the point where I feel like we're probably talking about different states of the game. In real progression (while still undergeared in actually difficult content) mantra is invaluable. Because we haven't had difficult content where the tuning is actually challenging in so long you may have a reduced appreciation for anything which increases ehp and hps.


Regardless of all this, this doesn't concern black mages current balance state because no matter which way you shake it we're bottom of the pile.

Her point stands that it should work with abilities as well as spells, though. I think she means that things like Assize and Indomitably aren't affected by it, which probably means also Earthly Star.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Unless the stars align and you can do one specific thing inside a really specific scenario, Blizzard IV is not a dps loss so be careful assuming it just is. Doesn't mean Blizzard IV and Umbral Hearts aren't a bad mechanic, because they are. It barely rewards you anything while making your rotation tighter inside buff timings.

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I thought 5xF4 was a small but definite dps gain and its only drawback was that you had to use B4->6xF4 every so often regardless just to buy Foul charge time. Did the math get corrected or am I remembering something wrong?