Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

Tanks are DPS. DPS are DPS. Healers are DPS. However direct or indirect they may contribute to clear time, as long as the encounter is ended by depleting enemy HP, all are DPS.

Oftentimes the indirect contribution will outweigh direct. There would be no tanks or healers otherwise. But this is capped. Direct contribution, instead, is never capped, apart from where it would, in the space of a single GCD, cause overkill damage. So why, upon hitting cap, would you bash your head fruitlessly against it instead of actually continuing to contribute?

What does not contribute to clearing a fight should not be taken to the fight. Within a margin of acceptance based on your more approximate community, what does not best contribute to clearing a fight should not be taken to the fight, either.

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Originally Posted by Reokotsae

it's only not working to people that feel tanks should have to be a bigger portion of a groups dps. Square enix disagrees the direction they are pushing tanks and healers is away from that mentality. This games community has always been polarized really strangely around this issue. I personally feel tanks and healers shouldn't be a major contributer to the groups damage output and should have more focus on utility based damage for the dps members like ast sits atm.

It's both more accessible for newer players and gives more common ground for encounter balance. (where things like double warriors in HW were essentially adding 2 dps trivialising some content thus becoming required in the communities eyes)

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It is because it is a bait and switch.

I play FFXIV because it is the best FF game in years, the 32-bit era, IMO.

I play it in SPITE of it being an MMO. One of the things I liked about the game when playing was though it uses the same old tired, outdated, cookie-cutter "trinity system" it wasn't so rigid as usual (I broke my no MMO rule for the first time a few years ago in another game--tank DPS was a joke and boring to play) and I found tanking in this game to be very enjoyable---I could just play whatever class I liked and not worry about the role. I only play melee, and typically sword users but I had all the melee classes at 60 in HW except Monk and Warrior. Dark Knight became far and away my favorite class (switched from Paladin after getting to Ishgard) and I came to really enjoy tanking in this game. Unlike the other MMORPG I played I could actually do more than just hold aggro--if played well you could do meaningful damage and things in Solo mode did not take 15m to kill.

However, it seems the "MMO chasers" that play this game keep trying to make it less Final Fantasy and more XYZmmorpg and now SE is listening to these people by ruining tanks. On this course, I will probably just abandon this game like I have done others that patch themselves into states that I do not enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Falar

It is because it is a bait and switch.

I play FFXIV because it is the best FF game in years, the 32-bit era, IMO.

I play it in SPITE of it being an MMO. One of the things I liked about the game when playing was though it uses the same old tired, outdated, cookie-cutter "trinity system" it wasn't so rigid as usual (I broke my no MMO rule for the first time a few years ago in another game--tank DPS was a joke and boring to play) and I found tanking in this game to be very enjoyable---I could just play whatever class I liked and not worry about the role. I only play melee, and typically sword users but I had all the melee classes at 60 in HW except Monk and Warrior. Dark Knight became far and away my favorite class (switched from Paladin after getting to Ishgard) and I came to really enjoy tanking in this game. Unlike the other MMORPG I played I could actually do more than just hold aggro--if played well you could do meaningful damage and things in Solo mode did not take 15m to kill.

However, it seems the "MMO chasers" that play this game keep trying to make it less Final Fantasy and more XYZmmorpg and now SE is listening to these people by ruining tanks. On this course, I will probably just abandon this game like I have done others that patch themselves into states that I do not enjoy.

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I must say, for people like you that like melee only and prefer sword users, and want to be able to contribute a lot of damage, I feel that SE basically answered your desires with SAM. Sure, it means dropping DRK which isn't ideal I know, but I can't help but wonder that was used as a ruse to allow these changes to be made. That said, I am happy with them. I believe a tank is a tank, and a healer is a healer (I mean sure I'll do DPS where I can, just for the group's sake, but I don't particularly enjoy it). I believe that with the structure of the way fights worked in XI, tanks had to tank, and healers had to heal, because the fights themselves were so punishing (from what I've read). It was a more traditional MMO in that sense. But, I do believe these changes could be made while keeping the traditional FF feel, allowing it to stay very FF-like, but showing a nice synergy between FF and MMO. I don't want them to change it to Generic MMO 101, but I do feel tanks should tank and healers should heal. The warrior of light arc, the ability to change jobs on the fly (with some limitations), etc, feel like FF traits to me.

These feel like FF traits to me, and should stay. But tanks being DPS with better mitigation, and healers being DPS with some healing spells... if that's core to Final Fantasy, then maybe it's time I give up MMOs completely, because aside from that, I enjoy FFXIV, but no other MMO grabs my attention. I came from WoW. I didn't like it. The story literally put me to sleep, I couldn't engage with it. It felt too out of the way. FFXIV (and I believe is a staple of FF in general) throws the story right in my face. I liked that, I felt truly engaged with the story because of how mission critical it was to progression. I feel like I am part of the story. I don't mind so much if the damage dealing part stays for if you're overgeared etc, I can live with that. But I want fights to be tricky enough that your general player (like me), has no time to throw out DPS because we have to worry so much about aggro, or we have to worry so much about healing due to damage being taken.

On the one hand, I'd also argue for tighter level and ilevel sync controls by default, so overgearing is less of an issue (but maybe with an option for looser controls for full premade parties? I dunno). But then I understand that would take away from the general FF feel, as a staple of FF has been "Oh, can't kill this now? Go train some more, get stronger, then come back." and the tighter level and ilevel sync controls would fly in the face of that. Though there is an issue of you're dealing with plenty different players, all with very different levels of competency. Perhaps for the sake of balance it has to be there? A traditional FF game and an MMO are already 2 very different beasts, with very different rulesets.

One thing is for certain, it isn't an easy situation to be in for SE. Because you've got the "MMO chasers" and the "FF traditionalists" all wanting very different things. How do you cater to 2 such large audiences when their ideas are very much at opposites with each other?

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Originally Posted by Falar

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But it is a MMO? Don't get me wrong. I love the Final Fantasy series. And I respect that it's part of the FF franchise, but this is a MMO, whether you like or not. Note that Summoner and Red Mage were changed to fit the fact that FFXIV is a MMO.

My personal opinion is that tanks can be more than just DPS with simplified rotations. I'm not against tank DPS. I just think there can be more depth to both tank DPS and mitigation. I've only played 2 MMOs previously, but maybe I am a "MMO Chaser", I don't know.

I'm reminded of something from the Balance

http://i.imgur.com/4SV5iPu.png

Image from the picture. Basically someone wanting a story mode for Alexander Savage.

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Originally Posted by Reokotsae

I personally feel tanks and healers shouldn't be a major contributer to the groups damage

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i agree it shouldn't be "major", but i like to feel like tank and healer dps can actually make a difference, especially since most dps players on duty finder and party finder are the most inept idiots at the game that get outdpsed by white mages and paladins as samurai. i want to feel like i can maybe save the party from enraging instead of just watching the low dps reach an unavoidable outcome

healer and tank dps should be significant

Yeah probably an MMO Chaser, just because wow did it this way doesnt mean Final Fantasy has to.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I play it in SPITE of it being an MMO. One of the things I liked about the game when playing was though it uses the same old tired, outdated, cookie-cutter "trinity system" it wasn't so rigid as usual (I broke my no MMO rule for the first time a few years ago in another game--tank DPS was a joke and boring to play) and I found tanking in this game to be very enjoyable---I could just play whatever class I liked and not worry about the role. I only play melee, and typically sword users but I had all the melee classes at 60 in HW except Monk and Warrior. Dark Knight became far and away my favorite class (switched from Paladin after getting to Ishgard) and I came to really enjoy tanking in this game. Unlike the other MMORPG I played I could actually do more than just hold aggro--if played well you could do meaningful damage and things in Solo mode did not take 15m to kill.

However, it seems the "MMO chasers" that play this game keep trying to make it less Final Fantasy and more XYZmmorpg and now SE is listening to these people by ruining tanks. On this course, I will probably just abandon this game like I have done others that patch themselves into states that I do not enjoy.

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Right behind you brotha. Paladins werent in the party originally just to cover, they dealt some serious damage as well. If this game can make tanking more desirable than even wow by having tanks deal damage respectably, then why the hell would they want to go to the stupid every mmo that wasnt based on a classic established series do it? You dont need to play SAM either, if you dont want to. It doesnt even look like the iconic FF samurai, because it has to fit its "role".

Tell me more *laughs in Fight or Flight*

I agree and desagree. Tank is here to take damage but not only protect on tankbuster.
We have so many DPSspell, wtf ?
I saw someone speaking about redisgn the tank gameplay and thats right.

For me a tank is here to mitigate damage and big CD for tank buster.
We have DPS cycle and not mitigation cycle. Thats the only issue.

But since we have DPS cycle I will continue to mix between agro/dps/tankburster.

And for people who ask to remove damage penalty of tank mode. Please use your brain this is just logic. We can't have everything we are to tank not for tag faster and DPS at the end.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Yeah probably an MMO Chaser, just because wow did it this way doesnt mean Final Fantasy has to.

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I'm not saying we have to do things a certain way because WoW did it. My reasoning for any changes has been fun and engagement, not just because WoW did it that way. Because come on now, I can do this while watching Netflix. I think something's very wrong if I can do that. If I can fulfill my role while watching Netflix it means that the game just isn't engaging enough.

All I'm really asking is to make tanks more fun. More DPS get shorter queues. I don't see that as a bad thing?

http://i.imgur.com/8uDO2NJ.png

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Originally Posted by FeyaAres

And for people who ask to remove damage penalty of tank mode. Please use your brain this is just logic. We can't have everything we are to tank not for tag faster and DPS at the end.

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If you're referring to my comment, the point was two-fold. One being that if they want tanks to stay in tank stance, removing the damage penalty would help. Two, that the only reason the penalty is there because SE thinks the penalty should be there to be balanced. But I think losing the damage boost from your DPS stance is penalty enough. A lot of the pro players tank in DPS stance anyways so it would only help the lesser skilled players.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I'm not saying we have to do things a certain way because WoW did it. My reasoning for any changes has been fun and engagement, not just because WoW did it that way. Because come on now, I can do this while watching Netflix. I think something's very wrong if I can do that. If I can fulfill my role while watching Netflix it means that the game just isn't engaging enough.

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But thats not a valid video. 24 man content in FFXIV equals Wow's LFR. They are meant to be easy