Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

TBN is no more "do everything" than Shelltron or Heart of Stone.

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As you've pointed out many times, it's a 15 second cooldown compared to those alternatives.
As you've tried to illustrate with numbers, it blocks more health damage than those alternatives in burst scenarios.

You can't have it both ways of "What do you mean, it's even better than any alternatives!" and "It does no more than anything else does for its position in the kit."

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That 'DRK's EW increase in capacity must be come in the form of a trait because the other tanks got traits' is asking for homogeny.

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... Getting traits that boost your survivability, at the same level as other tanks who would level through the same content and face the same obstacles and difficulty bumps at the same levels, is homogeny now?

What's next, role actions? 30% mitigation skills?

Where exactly is your imaginary line drawn between homogeny and parity?

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This is still DRK we're talking about, not GNB or PLD. It's not so bloated that skills must be wrapped together regardless of potential anti-synergy.

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With 3 full actionbars, I have one slot open as a DRK.
For a potion.

That's one spot more than PLD, sure, but one less than GNB since you brought them up.

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the other tanks would have reason to complain from 48-81

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... over not having Oblation. Or an even weaker version.

I highly, highly doubt that.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

You can't have it both ways of "What do you mean, it's even better than any alternatives!" and "It does no more than anything else does for its position in the kit."

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I misassumed that by "doing everything" you meant "is the answer to every situation" (does everything) rather than merely "is stronger". You've already repeatedly made the case that it cannot answer every situation.

If we're just talking strength, rather than applicability, then fair enough. Yes, I do think TBN is stronger, typically, than Shelltron or Heart of Stone. I don't think that makes it a "do everything" or "catch-all" CD, however, at least beyond the other on-demands. Holy Shelltron, in its being usable back-to-back, still having notable effect even post-damage, and having no additional punishment for its use would maybe fit that descriptor, but that's about it.

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What's next, role actions? 30% mitigation skills?

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We're in a thread that literally began with people asking for more tank defensives to be turned into Role Actions. And yes, such would be a change towards the homogenous. (Just as the 30% mitigation skills are, yes, barring Vengeance's odd bonus, homogeneous -- because they have the same durations, cooldowns, procedure, and potency; they're literally the same, barring Vengeance's counter-attack.) How is that even worth asking?

I'm okay with taking a trait over a separate skill if the reason were that the trait avoided anti-synergy (which would certainly constrain it), retained roughly the same flexibility and control (unlikely), and if not doing so would be bloated. I just don't think "because it's a trait for the others'" is a sufficient reason.

I'd certainly rather have a bit more control over my defensive kit than, say, Blood Weapon not being rolled into Delirium (so long as they're both on a 60s cooldown and therefore ought always to be used together).

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... over not having Oblation. Or an even weaker version.

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Oblation, itself, would be the "weaker" version. That's already the potency of Camouflage against magic damage, except on two charges and a shorter CD.

And if Dark Mind were fixed, as per the earlier scenario (and what, like LD, should happen regardless of the EW kit disparity), why would they not complain about DRK having an extra defensive --and more importantly, greater total defensive throughput-- over that level span? We're talking a period where the majority of defensive throughput for non-WARs is just our 30% and Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Garlan

I still struggle to comprehend why people are wanting TBN changed instead of Oblation. Altering Oblation wouldn't be invasive in the slightest, as it would only require one expansion worth of balancing along with having zero reliances on a resource outside of being a typical CD. Plus, Oblation could be given additional effects that could more easily shore up TBN's weaknesses (lack of mitigation in trash pulls and multi-hit TB's) compared to the alternative.

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Bcs functionally it is an extra pain to put on a cotank or other. As it stands, it’s just another button press and at 10% mit isn’t going to feel overly impactful so you most likely going to use tbn+oblation. Square should understand this given the comments about 6.08 where Yoshi mentions a job or two feeling busier but actions less impactful due to low damage - similar concept here. It’s tedious to add oblation to cotank as well as tbn for a tb when the other jobs can do it in one plus add something else like Aroura for example. They should have upgraded tbn to begin with functionality in mind rather than busy work.

Heard somewhere that the Dev team doesn't take advice or even look at the NA community forums and such when it comes to gameplay. They look at the JP player base only it seems. I forget where, but when asked, Yoshi said something like, "they didn't see any issues when looking at JP databases" or something like that. Might be way off, but at least for me, it sure does feel that way.

That's just rumors, even the JP forums are complaining.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If we got our level 82 capacity at 48... the other tanks would have reason to complain from 48-81, so it would indeed have to be something milder that then upgrades to it. Though, between adding another initially weak skill and just... fixing Dark Mind, I'd take the latter.

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No, they wouldn't. Every other tank has better mitigation before 70. 70 btw, is when DRK gets TBN, prior to that DRK's mitigation is straight up horrible. I agree on Dark Mind btw, I'd prefer if it was a 15% mitigation for both physical and magical.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No, they wouldn't. Every other tank has better mitigation before 70. 70 btw, is when DRK gets TBN, prior to that DRK's mitigation is straight up horrible.

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Even before 50; all we get is Dark Mind.
By 50, PLD has Sheltron, WAR has Raw Intuition and Thrill, and GNB has Aurora and Camo.

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I agree on Dark Mind btw, I'd prefer if it was a 15% mitigation for both physical and magical.

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Frankly I would even take Dark Mind being 10-15% mitigation for both and an extra 5-10% magical, just to approach par with Camouflage.

Though admittedly Camo's would still be more useful even then, given the marginal number of mobs who deal magic attacks that you can't just dodge. If it had like, a partial reflect, that would be one thing.

Dark Mind in my opinion should just go the way of the Dodo. Replace it by bringing back Shadowskin and slapping it into that slot. Done and Done.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Frankly I would even take Dark Mind being 10-15% mitigation for both and an extra 5-10% magical, just to approach par with Camouflage.

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Ryu's suggested 15% mitigation for 10s every 1 minute would already stand up pretty well against Camouflage's mere ~20% physical (except RNG based and half its mitigation wasted against crits) and 10% magical mitigation for 15s every 90s.

I wouldn't mind a magical mirror to Camo, though, so long as it were compensated for, as you mentioned, magical damage generally belonging only to a "marginal number of mobs".

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If it had like, a partial reflect, that would be one thing.

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...That... would be pretty slick, yeah. Bit of balancing hazard, though, if Spell Reflect (even after its damage getting capped) is anything to go by.

Granted, I'd honestly prefer we more often allowed for little bonuses here and there in general; I'd rather have fights that occasionally favor certain tanks (so long as that distribution is fairly even over any given expansion and no tier, even, highly favors a single tank on the whole) and Savage reward having different tanks as much as is needed to compensate than stick with tanks being quite so interchangeable (minus, of course, WAR's on-demand being brokenly good --instead of just by far the best-- in AoE, DRK's miti becoming a serious issue if we ever got harder dungeons, and Living Dead being a trap, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

Dark Mind in my opinion should just go the way of the Dodo. Replace it by bringing back Shadowskin and slapping it into that slot. Done and Done.

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That would also work, yep. Could even give it some of that old-school flair via something like "Increases dodge chance by 20%. Attacks unable to be dodged instead have their damage reduced by your dodge chance."

I hope there is healing effect to our Edge or Flood of Shadow, upgrade TBN so that if the shield did not pop, the remaining shield becomes HP. Or get rid of Oblation and give us back Dark Dance and the good old Abyssal Drain, if not, just get rid of the Abyssal Drain and put Dark Missionary before level 70. Abyssal Drain at the moment is just an eye sore now.