CG Midlander

sounds good to me.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

This has been bugging me for a while, since I haven't been able to find a real-world comparison for Gridania's quasi-system of government... until I thought of one last night. What do you guys think of this comparison?

In the pre-kings history of Jewish society, God was the monarch and considered the supreme ruler. Offending God was considered life-threatening. God's law was administed by the priests of the clan of Levi. On occasion, when things got out of hand, God would send a judge to resolve a particular problem and restore order.

Now:
Replace "God" with "the elementals";
Replace "priests" with "conjurers";
Replace "the clan of Levi" with "padjali heritage"; and
Replace "a judge" with "one beckoned by the Wood".

Anyone care to nit-pick?

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I'll pick just a little. All priests came from the tribe of Levi. I think Padjal would be more comparable to the family line of Aaron, which is the line of the High Priests.

...Where do moogles fit in?

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I'll pick just a little. All priests came from the tribe of Levi. I think Padjal would be more comparable to the family line of Aaron, which is the line of the High Priests.

...Where do moogles fit in?

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Good call.

I'm not sure where the moogles would fit in, I admit. It is, of course, an imperfect comparison.

The Theocracy bit makes a lot of sense, though we're leaving out an important factor. Gridanians respect the seedseers for understanding the will of the forest, which is the will of the elementals. The ability to commune with he elementals ("the forest") was taught to them by the moogles, which is their part in the story. But why? According to Gridanian legend, the Twevleswood (Black Shroud) itself was created specifically for the elementals by Nophica.

The Gods' Quiver protects the forest, and the Wood Wailers protect Gridania - they, with the seedseers and conjurers, represent the pillars of Gridanian faith. Those would all need places in the structure.

At the end of the day, it's still all about The Twelve.

A Baloon fish. treantvine . Velodyna cosmos
Sea. Land. Sky.
Limsa. Gridania. Uldah

Those that are bloodborn (sea) . Bloodless ( land) or transcendant (sky).

Mind you I don't recall what nation each was from. But maybe their naming is significant. Treants are guardians of the wood. The cosmos and the games like of astral umbral. Not sure about baloon fish.

Um, just in case it hasn't been mentioned already, Darnus doesn't have a shadow.

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Originally Posted by faris

Um, just in case it hasn't been mentioned already, Darnus doesn't have a shadow.

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]:C You just shattered my entire universe

yes he does.

here i found a video with him with a shadow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45gD1cmeBbQ

skip to the 10 min mark and you should see it.

edit: Managed to get a snapshot of it too just incase you guys miss it =P

http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...XF3Gdl6ejE.jpg

If Van Darnus wakes up near the end of winter and sees his shadow....then there will be another month of falling meteors.

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Originally Posted by Sanadaiyeve

A Baloon fish. treantvine . Velodyna cosmos
Sea. Land. Sky.
Limsa. Gridania. Uldah

Those that are bloodborn (sea) . Bloodless ( land) or transcendant (sky).

Mind you I don't recall what nation each was from. But maybe their naming is significant. Treants are guardians of the wood. The cosmos and the games like of astral umbral. Not sure about baloon fish.

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That... might actually be a red herring.

Limsa is a seafaring nation. Their patron deity is Llymlaen, the Navigator. Consequently, exotic foods are of particular interest. The balloon fish comes from much deeper depths of the ocean and has to be drawn up by something, such as a sea serpent. It's inherent rarity gives it value, as does your ability to obtain it - you have demonstrated an art of personal freedom in its acquisition.

Meanwhile, in Ul'dah, society is rules by the three pillars of wealth. Money, Power and Love. By possessing one, the other two can be acquired, and so that which assists in their acquisition has value. This is how the Velodyna Cosmos has value - she offers a rare brand of beauty that is expensive to attain and can become a mark of influence and wealth.

In Gridania, natural resources are highly valued as the inhabitants of Gridania are concious of their impact on the circle of life. A treant vine is difficult to obtain and may only be taken rarely. This gives it value.

Nophica's Altar also plays host to the skyserpent egg. Conjury also contains aspects of earth, wind and water - the elements of nature. So dividing up the city states on this basis is impractical.

Gridania is Nature. Ul'dah is Capitalism. Limsa is Freedom.

=============================================

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The Theocracy bit makes a lot of sense, though we're leaving out an important factor. Gridanians respect the seedseers for understanding the will of the forest, which is the will of the elementals. The ability to commune with he elementals ("the forest") was taught to them by the moogles, which is their part in the story. But why? According to Gridanian legend, the Twevleswood (Black Shroud) itself was created specifically for the elementals by Nophica.

The Gods' Quiver protects the forest, and the Wood Wailers protect Gridania - they, with the seedseers and conjurers, represent the pillars of Gridanian faith. Those would all need places in the structure.

At the end of the day, it's still all about The Twelve.

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Very fair comments. I'm not going to argue them (after all, they are quite valid) and am happy for it to be an imperfect comparison.

Although, I will point out that the Gridanians speak far more of the elementals than the Twelve. Mind you, by honouring the elementals, one inherently honours Nophica.
To connect the moogles, we may need to re-examine their own lore surrounding Good King Moggle Mog XII. According to their legend, they came from the astral realms, which could arguably be the same realm of the Twelve, and this turn could coincide with the first Umbral Era when the age of the gods ended.
So if moogles came from the same place as the Twelve, they would be familiar with their ways in a way the five races are not. As immigrants seeking peace, who not cooperate irrespective of what Nophica created their new home for?

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Although, I will point out that the Gridanians speak far more of the elementals than the Twelve.

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When you put it that way, I guess I should count my blessings that we got Nophica on their company recruitment poster instead of a busty elemental.

http://chrysaliswiki.wdfiles.com/loc...nitypurity.png

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Originally Posted by Catapult

if moogles came from the same place as the Twelve, they would be familiar with their ways in a way the five races are not. As immigrants seeking peace, who not cooperate irrespective of what Nophica created their new home for?

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I think this is one of the ones that won't have a tangible answer unless SE someday decides to elaborate on the nature of the gods themselves.

"Legend holds that, in a time long forgotten, mooglekind abided in the heavens as loyal servants of the gods."

"A war of deific proportions would erupt, triggered by a feud over a single goblet of wine. Growing weary of the conflict, the reigning moogle monarch, Good King Moggle Mog XII, resolved to lead his people to the realm of mortals in secret, that they might again know a life of peace."

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...le_Artwork.png

This does seem to imply that they're of the same origin as Moggle. Though, if Moogles served the Twelve, one would assume that the Gridanian religion would assume that they were created by them, which makes them kinda like fluffy little cherubs, Judeo-Christianally speaking.

I think there's something to be said about the true nature of the connections in the way in which they can comprehend things. For instance Moogles can understand the language of the elementals and the language of man, but only certain figures of man can understand moogles, and moogles taught them to hear the elementals. Mythologically speaking, that would make sense considering the hierarchy we're told.

That's one thing that always got me: Moogles usually end up being a sort of servant species to people in Final Fantasy, as well, but in FFXIV (so far, soon to change), they don't interact with humans very much at all and seem to act with more interest towards the elementals. If they were to continue their duty to serve the Twelve, but escaped to the realm of mortals... that would be a good place to start.

But I digress.

It is interesting, though, that you started this discussion with a Jewish societal structure and the Moogles think of Moggle as the figure that led them out of a dangerous servitude to what their legend specifically refers to as the Promised Land...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

But I digress.

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Indeed, it might be a good idea to leave that one there as there are way too many holes to stumble over and little to be gained from it.

Ferne, can I haz quests? kthxbai

@Catapult

GamerEscape coverage of the media tour goes up today, so I'm now free to quote...

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Originally Posted by Fusionx at GamerEscape

Yoshida explained the three story arcs that will make up the story for A Realm Reborn:

1. In this arc, the consciousness of the planet has formed into the Mother Crystal whom then speaks to the players. This is the storyline that will stretch throughout the entirety of the new FINAL FANTASY XIV.
2. Grand Companies vs the Garlean Empire. Yoshida noted that for this arc, an important keyword is “Warriors of Light”.
3. The Primals, which feed on the life force of the planet have grown in both strength and influence since the appearance of Bahamut.

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You nailed that Mother Crystal angle from a mile away, lol. </highfive>

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

@Catapult

GamerEscape coverage of the media tour goes up today, so I'm now free to quote...



You nailed that Mother Crystal angle from a mile away, lol. </highfive>

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/psych

I like my hunch! :D

/brofist

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

@Catapult

GamerEscape coverage of the media tour goes up today, so I'm now free to quote...



You nailed that Mother Crystal angle from a mile away, lol. </highfive>

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Sweet, now we just have to consider ourselves crazy because crystals are talking to us! omg! But anyways. Obligatory: well that doesn't mean Siren still can't be our Primals. Just kidding of course. I was thinking if the Succubus are a Beast Tribe (I mean, they were shown having different 'jobs') then maybe Siren is their lady. Yeah you can tell I'm bored =[

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Obligatory: well that doesn't mean Siren still can't be our Primals. Just kidding of course.

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Technically it doesn't count her out, actually. If the crystal is a life force of the planet manifest, that still leaves the door open for deities from the all-otherworlds-encompassing void, including the Twelve (which I still say are the Olympians) and the Primals (which I still say are the Titans).

Remember, the crystal is basically life energy as a whole manifest - it's aether. Primals would know the difference between aether and other primals easier than you'd tell the difference between smelling fresh cinnamon buns and just smelling your flatmate.

Ifrit didn't smell aether on us ... he smelled his own.

The door's still open...

JUST SAYIN'

I'm calling it now. Our Primal is Alexander.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

I'm calling it now. Our Primal is Alexander.

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Well that's a problem, because I've called it that Alexander is Bozja Citadel.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Well that's a problem, because I've called it that Alexander is Bozja Citadel.

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Ohhh, you know my thoughts on where Alexander is headed.

Sorry for going off in a tangent here, I'm curious if Ferne or any other developers might like to share some insight on the absence of the West Shroud so far in the media. We've seen all areas minus the West Shroud in the Alpha preview video collections and it has me wondering.

Looking back at the very first FFXIV 2.0 concept art .pdf there's a piece of art for an area in the shroud that I consider to be West Shroud. Doing a bit of thinking and screen shot research we can see that the Eorzean Stratum (that large crystal object) to the west of the new Camp Tranquil as seen in the alpha preview video.

http://killingifrit.com/forums/uploa...9_30_15250.jpg

Surely there must be a West Shroud, right?

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Originally Posted by AkiRouscelia

Sorry for going off in a tangent here, I'm curious if Ferne or any other developers might like to share some insight on the absence of the West Shroud so far in the media. We've seen all areas minus the West Shroud in the Alpha preview video collections and it has me wondering.

Looking back at the very first FFXIV 2.0 concept art .pdf there's a piece of art for an area in the shroud that I consider to be West Shroud. Doing a bit of thinking and screen shot research we can see that the Eorzean Stratum (that large crystal object) to the west of the new Camp Tranquil as seen in the alpha preview video.

http://killingifrit.com/forums/uploa...9_30_15250.jpg

Surely there must be a West Shroud, right?

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West Shroud connects to Mor Dhona and I also think it's the higher level area of The Twelveswood, not sure. Best way to hide pretty picturesque Mor Dhona is not allowing people to get to "close." Be interesting to see if we can view the Crystal Tower in the distance. Could also be that West Shroud was hit hardest by Megaflare/Dalamud debris and it has some major changes. Maybe Gelmorra has been uncovered, those ruins were in North West of the West Shroud after all.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

... Maybe Gelmorra has been uncovered, those ruins were in North West of the West Shroud after all.

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I was thinking the same. Especially considering the ruins tag in the original 2.0 .pdf file for the Shroud map. That's pretty much why I consider it the western side, anyway.

I agree that it's a good way to keep the surprises that lay in Mor'Dhona under wraps.

For those of you still following from the earlier game-wide lore digression this thread has become famous for as SE makes final decisions about a lore forum...

Here's a question:
Do you think we're sometimes moving to different ships when someone on a ship triggers an echo?

We see in some cases that the Echo can make you travel great distances (see: ALC story arc, V1 opening cinematic). Do you think this is happening in the Lominsan story arc? It's the only thing I can think of to make some of the continuity work. For instance, in Treasures of the Main, we see Sthalmann referring to a ship he impounded due to suspicions of being a sea serpent-attracting pirate vessel, rather than a "civilian ship."

I originally thought that he was talking about Hob's ship, seeing as he was there on the previous quest, but he's not. He refers to the captain as "one-eyed," and the only one-eyed captain 'round here is One-Eyed Hyllfyr of the Astalicia. This makes sense, as The Astalicia is actually registered with the Lominsan government as being a trade ship from another land. The fact that it's a pirate vessel is a (badly kept) secret.

So, that begs the question, when Rusty Steel (Rostnsthal) is travelling around on Hob's cargo ship and triggers an echo... what would he, then Man of Steel (Sthalmann), have been doing aboard Hob's ship in civilian gear when the sea serpent appeared? Let's go through some (what I think are) facts (correct me if I make a mistake):

• Seal Rock truly is Swallowtail Roam.

Stated by SE press releases, and, c'mon; sea serpent.

• Swallowtail Roam appeared shortly (3 months) before Y'shtola arrives.

In 1562 (sixth astral), Sthalmann commissions a vessel from Naldiq & Vymelli's to join the scholars on a trip to Seal Rock. The steelmaster of the forge questions him about where the island came from, and he says that he's been trying to figure that out for "a few months," but local matters keep him tied to Limsa.

• Sthalmann is Commodore when Y'shtola arrives.

• Y'shtola is only in town for two weeks in 1562(ish), when the rest of the Circle arrive in Eorzea.

Merodaulyn mentions that she's been in town for a fortnight - so 14-16 days. Now that you mention it, what IS an Eorzean fortnight? The word is short for "fourteen nights," but is often used to mean "two weeks." That's all well and fine in the real world - but Eorzea's weeks have eight days. Is a fortnight still two weeks? Or two days shorter? Might there be a fifnight? Twelfnight? We know there's a sennight, which is short for seven d- OH, MAN, IS A SENNIGHT A WEEK OR ... <head explodes>

So, where is Sthalmann and why?

The story has shown that you can travel to far-away places through the echo, so long as the person who is triggering it is reminded of the past event by the present situation, so I see some possibilities. However, all the ones I can think of require this particular echo to take place three months before many of the others - which doesn't fit with Y'shtola's timeline.

I'm forced to assume that she, herself, is time-jumping around (like she seems to in the Grand Comapny story arc), but spends most of, but not all of, her time in that two week period.

The best can gather is that...

When Swallowtail Roam first appears ten years and three months ago, Sthalmann is a civilian. My best guess is that he's a low-level pirate; three months after this, as Commodore, he knows that the Astalicia is a pirate vessel, and it's a little early for such a thing to be so widely known. He may even be from the Astalicia herself, considering that she and Hob's ship are of the same model, and ten years later it is on Hob's ship that Rostnsthal triggers this echo.

When he first sees the serpent, he becomes obsessed with Swallowtail Roam and its rumored treasure - resolving that he will take it for himself and finally have the respect he thinks he deserves. He suppresses all talk of the serpent as nonsense and convinces his captain to enter the Trident. Through some means, legitimate or otherwise, Sthalmann's captain wins and becomes admiral - making Sthalmann commodore for his assistance, legitimate or otherwise, in taking the chair.

He spends the next three months elaborately plotting to finally take the chair for himself. However, by this time, Seal Rock is impossible to hide. Immediately, forces from every angle descend upon it - pirates who want riches, scholars who want knowledge, Barracudas to secure their waters... and four particular factions who know of and want one particular army-summoning treasure:

• The Sahagin (likely to wipe out Leviathan's enemies)
• The Ascians (likely to wipe out everything)
• Sthalmann (to take the admiralty and rule the seas/Eorzea/Hydaelyn)
• The Circle of Knowing (probably just to not get murderized by the aforementioned)

Sthalmann knows that time is against him, so he creates a clandestine triad to take the treasure before anyone can be the wiser. However, the Ascians are smarter: they plant a man in the Serpent Reavers. He is an ascian, who looks like a Lominsan, who is in with the Sahagin - and Sthalmann is blocking Y'shtola, so he knows every detail and activity of all factions who want the treasure.

This is the where the Lominsan story arc comes in, Sthalmann's plan falls apart, Y'shtola loses the key, and Travanchet gets away.

IT ALL WORKS! ... but,

I'm bothered to a very great degree by the fact that, in order to make this work, I end up having to assume that Sthalmann went from deckhand to Commodore in three months. sTILL, when you take the Trident into consideration, you can go from pirate to Admiral in a day... (Lookin' at you, Merlwyb!)

Can any of you come up with something that puts Sthalmann in civvy gear on any ship for any reason ten years (not ten years and three months) ago, while Commodore, for any canon-consistent reason?

Or, even better, does someone out there (including you wonderful SE employees) just know what happened?

Cor, that's a lot to wrap my head around. And I never properly played the lominsan story arc. But I'll try throwing spanners and logic around anyway...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Here's a question:Do you think we're sometimes moving to different ships when someone on a ship triggers an echo?

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Yes. We do it all the time. To quote Papalymo, "How the bloody hells did we get here?!?"
But because most lominsan ships are based of a standard (presumably) Naldiq & Vymelli model, the player couldn't be expected to properly identify the differences between various ships.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

So, that begs the question, when Rusty Steel (Rostnsthal) is travelling around on Hob's cargo ship and triggers an echo... what would he, then Man of Steel (Sthalmann), have been doing aboard Hob's ship in civilian gear when the sea serpent appeared?

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In transit, off-duty?
Doing some reconnaissance without wanting to attract too much attention?
On his way back from setting things up with Emerick?

A good officer knows when to put on a disguise and how to dress for the occasion.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...da/Bellena.jpghttp://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...fe/Belleza.jpg
^Both of these are of the same character: Belleza, 4th Admiral of the Valuan Armada, specialist in espionage, particularly when it involves getting information out of pirates.

Ok, so my fandom for Skies of Arcadia is filtering through here, but you get the idea...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Let's go through some (what I think are) facts (correct me if I make a mistake):

• Seal Rock truly is Swallowtail Roam.
• Swallowtail Roam appeared shortly (3 months) before Y'shtola arrives.
• Sthalmann is Commodore when Y'shtola arrives.
• Y'shtola is only in town for two weeks in 1562(ish), when the rest of the Circle arrive in Eorzea.

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All correct, to the best of my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Now that you mention it, what IS an Eorzean fortnight?

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Don't hurt yourself buddy. Oh, wait, too late...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm forced to assume that [Y'shtola], herself, is time-jumping around (like she seems to in the Grand Comapny story arc), but spends most of, but not all of, her time in that two week period.

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That would be quite a big call to make. Anecdotal evidence suggests that while the circle of knowing is aware of what the echo is, they have no personal familiarity with it before 1562.

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Originally Posted by Papalymo, after witnessing the Starshower at the Grand Rite

The echo has sounded, and nothing can stop it now.

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Given the way all four members show up at the same time, your theory supposes that Y'shtola's mission in Limsa was different to that of Thancred's in Ul'dah and Papalymo's in Gridania, who sought to find out with what means the city-state would defend itself against the Garleans and get in its way if said means would cause more harm than good. Indeed, Y'shtola's presence can be easily justified with this mission, but your theory suggests she is history-hopping after the fact and the Sharlayan council decided not to worry about Limsa in the way it worried about the other city-states.

I'm kinda not buying it. She's a prowling cat who could have easily got a whiff of something not being quite right around Merodaulyn and decided to stow away during the expedition.

Um, yeah, I always figured that second appearance of Leviathan with the tidal wave following the ship fight was the seal rock expedition. Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm bothered to a very great degree by the fact that, in order to make this work, I end up having to assume that Sthalmann went from deckhand to Commodore in three months. STILL, when you take the Trident into consideration, you can go from pirate to Admiral in a day... (Lookin' at you, Merlwyb!)

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I'm looking at Merlwyb as well. She's held the chair for ten years now, it seems. Which leads me to a new question:
How often is the Trident held?
Is it a yearly thing? Or does it only ever happen when the previous Admiral falls off the chair (natural or assisted causes)? I'm gonna hazard a guess with the latter, and that makes me buy the "ascension to commodore" theory even less. Nah, that guy has been plotting for a long time. He also has the air of confidence and the respect of his underlings that you have to build up over years, not just three months.

At the very least, he was first mate to his captain, not a deckhand.

Hello all, late to the game i know. Please forgive me for getting a little lengthy.

I have always worked under the assumption that Sthalmann was on Hobs ship in "Civvies" as he was searching for what i would say are accomplices. Since i would say it agreeable that he has been working on taking over admiral for quite some time. I feel that its safe to say for whatever reason Sthalmann is commodore at the very beginning.

As far as the Trident goes i have always seen it as like what the Gotei 13 did in olden days Bleach. It was used when it was needed. For example if someone dies or their is a consensual challenge.

I do agree with a lot of stuff in this thread (though it is getting quite a bit along now). I Personally believe that at least Y'shtola has the power of the echo as well or something close to it. I have my suspicions of Thancred and i do not believe Yda and Papalymo have it.

On a related wild tangent, I think a lot of problems with continuity is us. I'm a firm believer that we are the proverbial thorn in the side on most everything we see.

Bear with me if you will that Limsa's and Ul'dah's plots could have easily played out way different had we not been there. I think that because we threw our "spanner" into the mix we caused issues. Since we are supposed to be viewing the past of someone else (how they remembered it) since we are there now, things are not quite right.

We are explained various powers of the echo through the storyline, but that really does not encompass what we see. The way i have it figured is that after the big aether explosion 10 years ago people started cropping up with echo powers. Certain people sensitive to these types of things gained various abilities. Seen as how some people can see the past and some can understand languages such as mooglespeak. Though we are very different as our powers are a direct gift from the mother crystal.

The example that alludes me to this.

In the Gridania story when dealing with the Pad'jal they speak to us outside the echo of things we need to do in the past mainly pertaining to dunstan and Fye. At the time we do not know we are going to the past so it nothing to us. Now if what Minfillia says is true and we can not change the past then why are these kids telling us to do so? I think that is what makes us so important is that we can affect the past and thats why stuff is hard to understand. It's Because we are fumbling like idiots trough the past cause we do not know any better.

Another thing that i think of is that we can not use the echo directly on the Pad'jal they know and block us. (Not sure where this was said but i remember it in the game somehwere.) So someone had to be leading us around to do stuff and the pad'jal had to be doing it knowingly since we can not do it ourselves to them.

Take it for what you will, though this is kinda my thoughts on it. The whole thing makes me think that the guy who made twin peaks is writing an episode of quantum leap...

Sorry for commenting and kinda derailing love what you guys have been doing here. Also cannot wait for official lore area on the new site so we can see what really happened.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

...the player couldn't be expected to properly identify the differences between various ships.

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Maybe I'm just not trying hard enough...

Even among the Lominsan standard, there are a few giveaways. All three ships in the second serpent appearance use diagonal red sails and fly 'Cuda flags, as does the one Commodore Sthalmann is commissioning in Treasures of the Main.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...Sea_Battle.png

However, Hob's ship clearly has a few differences. There are no cannons, the sails are white, he flies no flag. These qualities seem to be a little rarer in Limsa. However, Sthalmann's ship in Shapeless Melody is quite similar, though the sails are tied to prevent damage.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...sa_Lominsa.png
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...ea_Serpent.png

That means ... unless there are any other ships in Limsa that meet these qualities...

http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...VgO3-KYDCs.jpg
Like, the Astalicia...

HUH. Well, shit.

Back to where I started with my theory above then - one or the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Anecdotal evidence suggests that while the circle of knowing is aware of what the echo is, they have no personal familiarity with it before 1562.
Given the way all four members show up at the same time, your theory supposes that Y'shtola's mission in Limsa was different to that of Thancred's in Ul'dah and Papalymo's in Gridania, who sought to find out with what means the city-state would defend itself against the Garleans and get in its way if said means would cause more harm than good. Indeed, Y'shtola's presence can be easily justified with this mission, but your theory suggests she is history-hopping after the fact and the Sharlayan council decided not to worry about Limsa in the way it worried about the other city-states.

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To some degree, her mission in Lominsa is quite different than just figuring out how they'd fare against the Empire. In the entire time she's in town, the only question she makes as to the Garleans or Lominsa's ability to defend against them is, "What of the Empire? ... Surely they would not attack an independent city-state this far south." and that's it. She spends the rest of the time inquiring about "shadowless associates," Ascians, and the Key (Treasures of Swallowtail Roam). She doesn't even realize until halfway through that it could be used to summon an army.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Um, yeah, I always figured that second appearance of Leviathan with the tidal wave following the ship fight was the seal rock expedition. Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

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For starters, Ferne's confirmed that the sea serpent is not by any means Leviathan, but, like Midgardsormr, an independent great beast with a mythology rooted in The Twelve. This makes sense, I guess, because he doesn't bother stopping to demand aether, bask in the worship of his cult, and give a lenthy diatribe about how unworthy and insignificant everyone else is.

By this point in the story, I'm pretty sure that the Seal Rock expedition's destruction is well over with. After Emerick sold out the Seal Rock unit, he was arrested by Sthalmann and sequestered at sea (where they hide criminals they think will be assassinated in Coral Tower). This was probably just to keep him safe until he could be spirited away by Sthalmann again, seeing as how he fully expects to be let out and stages a fight with Merodaulyn to make it look good.

How does the player end up in this? In an echo, he hears that Emerick was sequestered at sea and demands to be brought to the sequestered ship, despite people at the Wench telling you he's dead. Baderon calls in a favor from Hob, who for some reason borrows a ship from the Fisherman's Guild to bring you out there. On the ship, Hob spies some Serpent Reavers, which for some reason triggers an Echo where Travanchet attacks the sequestered ship looking for Emerick and the serpent shows up to trash everything. Why exactly Hob would have anything to do with this is something I'm still working on. However, Y'shtola shows up to warn Emerick that the Ascians are after him, and Merod says that if she's here the 'Cudas can't be far behind. They're not - two more ships show up to take on Travanchet's boats, but everyone loses. The boats are trashed, Merod disappears, Emerick seems to get injured pretty badly and eventually become Blackburn and Y'shtola... arrives back in town like nothing happened (again, making me think maybe she's able to time-jump somehow. Hey, Lou did it.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

How often is the Trident held?

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This one gets under my skin a bit. Sthalmann's plot killed the admiral of ten years ago - and now we have Merlwyb. BUT - despite the fact that NPCs refer to her as "the new admiral," more NPCs and quests make it clear that a new Trident is fast approaching. It's the crux of the MRD storyline - the Trident is coming and the crews are trying to get the upper hand on one another.

These aren't just pre-GC leftovers, either. One NPC in town states:

"Pirates in an uproar over the new Admiral? Hah! If they don't like her, then all they have to do is beat her in the next Trident. If they can't do that, then they should crawl back into their holes and keep quiet until they grow the stones to stand up to her!"

So, it's on a schedule of some kind. I'm not sure what that schedule is. There's also the possibility that there was an admiral BETWEEN the one who died in 1562 and Merlwyb. This would make sense, since she'd be the winner of the most recent Trident ("the new admiral") but the next Trident approaches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

In transit, off-duty? Doing some reconnaissance without wanting to attract too much attention? On his way back from setting things up with Emerick? A good officer knows when to put on a disguise and how to dress for the occasion.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Nah, that guy has been plotting for a long time. He also has the air of confidence and the respect of his underlings that you have to build up over years, not just three months. At the very least, he was first mate to his captain, not a deckhand.

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This I agree with. Like I said, it bothers me that the only way I can think of to cram it together relies on making assumptions like this - there has to be something I'm missing, and it's possible that, like the "seal" under Silvertear, we just won't be aware of it until the game or devs say so.

The way he calls out orders aboard the ship he's on in Shapless Melody does make him out to be an important figure on the ship. However, this creates a circular problem in your logic as much as it does mine. If he's commodore but undercover, then he should command so much authority on the ship -- unless people know he's commodore, and then why is he in civvy gear with no title?

It might be a combination - at that time he's a first mate aboard a pirate ship (as we've seen, maybe even the Astalicia)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laevetine

Another thing that i think of is that we can not use the echo directly on the Pad'jal they know and block us. (Not sure where this was said but i remember it in the game somehwere.) So someone had to be leading us around to do stuff and the pad'jal had to be doing it knowingly since we can not do it ourselves to them.

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That's not entirely correct - as there's at least one side quest where you use the Echo on Raya-O to see a conversation between her and her sister. She *does* notice what you're doing by the end of it though, and she gets pissed off while somehow throwing you out of the echo before berating you for using it on her and then teleporting off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

That's not entirely correct - as there's at least one side quest where you use the Echo on Raya-O to see a conversation between her and her sister. She *does* notice what you're doing by the end of it though, and she gets pissed off while somehow throwing you out of the echo before berating you for using it on her and then teleporting off.

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You beat me to it.

That being said, there is a distinct possibility that E-Sumi-Yan is on to you when you meet at the Greatloam Growery and he sends you to find Pearl Clover fruits. He knows the true history of Fye and Dunstan unlike the rest of town who are playing off gossip. And so, rather than showing his hand, he could choose to wait and see where this unravels. The next time you see him in the present day is at the small harvest, where he is in deep conversation with the Hermit of the Wood, who is also on to you.


And Moose, thanks for pulling me up on the "leviathan" statement. I clearly had my lore in a knot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

That's not entirely correct - as there's at least one side quest where you use the Echo on Raya-O to see a conversation between her and her sister. She *does* notice what you're doing by the end of it though, and she gets pissed off while somehow throwing you out of the echo before berating you for using it on her and then teleporting off.

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Ahh i stand corrected, i never got to finish all of Gridania stuff so i had to take a lil liberty.

Though i still say that O-App and E-Sumi lead you along in the present knowingly.

And if nothing else we have a whole lot of plot coming up in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

And Moose, thanks for pulling me up on the "leviathan" statement. I clearly had my lore in a knot.

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Whatever work needs to be done to get people up to the same page I'm stuck on so we can start translating it together, that's work well spent! :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laevetine

Ahh i stand corrected, i never got to finish all of Gridania stuff so i had to take a lil liberty.

Though i still say that O-App and E-Sumi lead you along in the present knowingly.

And if nothing else we have a whole lot of plot coming up in the future.

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It would be easier to say that the padjal begin to lead you along in order to make best use of your naïvity as the story progresses, even if they don't properly understand what it is you can do. As you spend more time in the past, you gradually go from being a nobody to someone who is a bit of a historical contradiction that O-App is then capable of picking up on.

"Sonething tells me you will not meet with much trouble finding [Fye]"

This of course assumes that the echo allows us to make small changes to history, predominantly to what people remember.

Having read through this excellent thread I noticed there's however a contradiction to this lore that I'd really like to clarify (I'm really sorry to Ferne, as he's done an awesome job trying to sort out all the lore for us) - and that's the constant reference to the Echo being 'time travel' - it's not, at least, not in the literal sense.

In reality, to me it's more of a form of clairvoyance/telepathy, reading a person's memories and actually 'placing yourself' in them in a kind of dream state - Minfilia mentions this and explains how the Echo works when you first arrive at the Path of the Twelve:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minfilia

"The Echo allows you to breach the wall of a person's soul, and hear the resonations of their past. You will be there in their memories, seeing things as they saw them. You may even interact with that lies therein. However, the past is like a stone tablet. You cannot uncarve what is already written."

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So really, what we all experienced in the first part of the game is not the literal past, but a kind of dreamworld taken from ten year-old memories (when I read that line of Minfilia's memories of FFVIII came back to me ;) - in fact, the very nature of the Echo itself was a lot like Ellone's power in FFVIII.).

The big question is, exactly whose memories did we access during the first part of the game? Especially the very start - if for instance in the Gridanian storyline Papalymo and Yda aren't actually there when you first arrive in the Black Shroud, then who was it then that the Echo accessed memories from? I really hope Ferne can shed some light on this as it's really been bugging me for a while now. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Having read through this excellent thread I noticed there's however a contradiction to this lore that I'd really like to clarify (I'm really sorry to Ferne, as he's done an awesome job trying to sort out all the lore for us) - and that's the constant reference to the Echo being 'time travel' - it's not, at least, not in the literal sense.

In reality, to me it's more of a form of clairvoyance/telepathy, reading a person's memories and actually 'placing yourself' in them in a kind of dream state - Minfilia mentions this and explains how the Echo works when you first arrive at the Path of the Twelve:



So really, what we all experienced in the first part of the game is not the literal past, but a kind of dreamworld taken from ten year-old memories (when I read that line of Minfilia's memories of FFVIII came back to me ;) - in fact, the very nature of the Echo itself was a lot like Ellone's power in FFVIII.).

The big question is, exactly whose memories did we access during the first part of the game? Especially the very start - if for instance in the Gridanian storyline Papalymo and Yda aren't actually there when you first arrive in the Black Shroud, then who was it then that the Echo accessed memories from? I really hope Ferne can shed some light on this as it's really been bugging me for a while now. :)

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If I'm reading this right, I think I big distinction needs to be made between Ellone's FFVIII power and the Echo. Ellone seemed to send you into the body of someone in the past, and she had to know that person besides. With the Echo, you seem to show up as your own separate entity in the past (and this is the part I might need our resident lore-scholars for...) and I don't think you need to know the person you're jumping into the memories of. Before you learn how to control the Echo, it might be possible you can jump into the collective consciousness of many people floating about in the aether...?

Ooh! Oooooh!

The memories of Hydaelyn?

Heed the crystal's call...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

Armory System.

Not sure why it needs to be any more complicated than that - we've seen NPCs use the teleport/return function, no reason why they wouldn't be able to change classes as they please too (and occasionally show it in action in a trailer).

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^This

Its simple, the first trailer was an echo of the past. Remember, he was viewing someone else's memory, and its worth noting that, that was not an ordinary sword on his back, it was a greatsword, thus by word of god, he was neither gladiator nor marauder in this video... In the ARR trailer, they've put him in a WAR AF to represent progress, he's an adventurer, a hero of eorzea and he needs to look the part!

I dare not stay in this thread for too long, for fear of being lost within it...but I come quickly now to say to Enki:

What you are referring to reminds me a lot of psychometry and retrocognition (which are sometimes said to be related). Or, I guess, retro-remote viewing? He he. Carry on. I just wanted to say that much.

/flee

(It should be noted that neither psychometry nor retrocognition involve being physically present for the event relived but rather involve a downloading of information previously calculated by other hands). :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

@Catapult

GamerEscape coverage of the media tour goes up today, so I'm now free to quote...



Yoshida explained the three story arcs that will make up the story for A Realm Reborn:

1. In this arc, the consciousness of the planet has formed into the Mother Crystal whom then speaks to the players. This is the storyline that will stretch throughout the entirety of the new FINAL FANTASY XIV.
2. Grand Companies vs the Garlean Empire. Yoshida noted that for this arc, an important keyword is “Warriors of Light”.
[/URL]

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So... It's safe to discuss who are Warriors of ~~
"Don't you drag me!" /turn back and warn the men in black from NDA department.

Gosh these NDA men are so annoying...

/clear throat
Just ask for ppl's guesses...
So, who will be Warriors of Light? Are they save us from Bahamut and prison him at somewhere?
What's your guesses...?
Since midlanders got teleported before everyone got saved, so I think they are out of the possibility.
Is that white light shinning on Lou's face from "warriors of light"? Is that why he's smiling?

• can it be we players are one of the warrior of light but we lost memories or npc don't recognize us?
  • You know in MMORPG is an interesting situation that we somehow is the "only" savior but not alone! In the mission story line, the other players doesn't exist. Some of them will show up as your "friends" but they are replaceable. However, I doubt SE will give us such glory...
• more special R tattooed people came to save us?
  • like the kitty and that monk and that blm lala... can't remember names at all =.=
• newly made up secret society. or that blond hume lady lead us
  • since there is a keeper of the secret, like that white raven family, jump out of surprise; there got to be enforcer family or something like that jumps out to keep the order. like watch the witches...
    I believe this version more...
• Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn ARRRRRG got mad and whole robe exploded and became super galka and started to shoot laser gun; Kan-e-Senna got mad white robe exploded and became x-men Storm; Raubahn Aldynn's subligar shinning rainbow neon colors and became sheman!
  • I think someone disagreed with me before that these leaders are strong. but you know there is still a 0.05% chance... XD and it's kinda fun to see Grid leader jumps up to the air and whole white robe shattered and started to shoot lightning...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hestern_Nestern

I dare not stay in this thread for too long, for fear of being lost within it...but I come quickly now to say to Enki:

What you are referring to reminds me a lot of psychometry and retrocognition (which are sometimes said to be related). Or, I guess, retro-remote viewing? He he. Carry on. I just wanted to say that much.

/flee

(It should be noted that neither psychometry nor retrocognition involve being physically present for the event relived but rather involve a downloading of information previously calculated by other hands). :confused:

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Well, your idea is actually very logical Heste - especially when you take into account how those with the Echo are actually perceived by others in the present day during an 'Echo episode' (for lack of a better word) - although not specifically shown it seems that an Echo user who is experiencing the Echo seems to be in a trance or dream state (in other words, time is continuing at it's normal pace in the present), when all of a sudden they 'snap out of it' when it ends.

The original 1.0 opening hinted at this: when Derplander suddenly snaps back to the 'present' after his Echo trip to the Battle of Silvertear Falls his elezen pal sarcastically quips: "Look who's returned from his reverie?" - after checking my old pocket dictionary 'reverie' is stated as being a 'daydream' or 'absent minded state', seeming to suggest that Derplander was physically still in the present, just completely unresponsive nor lucid while his mind jumped back 10 years into the past.

So yeah, psychometry or clairvoyance is a good enough 'real-world' label for the Echo as any (it should also be noted that the other side effect of the Echo - being able to understand any language in Hydaelyn) also has a real-world equivalent: xenoglossia, although it should be noted that the purported incidents of xenoglossia in the real world usually are far less extensive than what Echo users have (xenoglossia evidently only manifests as understanding of a single 'unknown' language, where as the Echo gives apparent mastery over all Hydaelyn languages, even those of the beast tribes).

But I think I've gone off on an Echo-trip of my own here so I'm going to stop now. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deli

So... It's safe to discuss who are Warriors of ~~
"Don't you drag me!" /turn back and warn the men in black from NDA department.

Gosh these NDA men are so annoying...

/clear throat
Just ask for ppl's guesses...
So, who will be Warriors of Light? Are they save us from Bahamut and prison him at somewhere?
What's your guesses...?
Since midlanders got teleported before everyone got saved, so I think they are out of the possibility.
Is that white light shinning on Lou's face from "warriors of light"? Is that why he's smiling?

• can it be we players are one of the warrior of light but we lost memories or npc don't recognize us?
  • You know in MMORPG is an interesting situation that we somehow is the "only" savior but not alone! In the mission story line, the other players doesn't exist. Some of them will show up as your "friends" but they are replaceable. However, I doubt SE will give us such glory...
• more special R tattooed people came to save us?
  • like the kitty and that monk and that blm lala... can't remember names at all =.=
• newly made up secret society. or that blond hume lady lead us
  • since there is a keeper of the secret, like that white raven family, jump out of surprise; there got to be enforcer family or something like that jumps out to keep the order. like watch the witches...
    I believe this version more...
• Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn ARRRRRG got mad and whole robe exploded and became super galka and started to shoot laser gun; Kan-e-Senna got mad white robe exploded and became x-men Storm; Raubahn Aldynn's subligar shinning rainbow neon colors and became sheman!
  • I think someone disagreed with me before that these leaders are strong. but you know there is still a 0.05% chance... XD and it's kinda fun to see Grid leader jumps up to the air and whole white robe shattered and started to shoot lightning...

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Clearly the Warriors of Light will be what we're referred to. Us/the Midlander and his party. The Circle of Knowing may know of Louisoix's Plan B if things went awry, but I doubt the Grand Company leaders were filled in. So as they looked on as Bahamut was preparing a blast to wipe Louisoix and ourselves (CG Midlander and party representing us) out, all they see is an explosion and nothing surviving in it's wake. I highly doubt Louisoix told the GC Leaders the his plan would be to warp us into a void-like place for 5 years. There could even be the possibility that of the Circle of Knowing, cept for Urianger who seemed to be Louisoix's right-hand Elezen, didn't even know of Plan B..considering they were off praying or activating the spell and were not there to witness what happened. We won't know until we're able to use our characters and see how the story applies to us and our return.

As for the other questions I'm not sure what you mean, R tattooed people came to save us?

As for the secret society, you ultimately have the Circle of Knowing and the Path of the Twelve. Then of course there's the Syndicate. Just a few examples of secret societies. As for the 'blonde hyur lady,' Minfilia will still be around and we don't know how the Echo will be effected in ARR. Ultimately we had the Echo to learn of things prior to the year 1572 Sixth Astral, whether we'll need this power or not in ARR I'm not sure we can say. Of course we would need it to speak to Moogles and Sylphs and Beastmen alike..so I'm sure we'll still have it. Being able to witness the happenings during our 5-year absent will be a major storyline that I'm sure we're all looking forward to.

I'm still drowning in Lominsan lore over here, but should point out that the Syndicate is not a secret society. They're the ruling elite of Ul'dah in name, title, and public recognition. Their motivations and deals may at times be shady, but its membership is plain as day - the six wealthiest people in town.

In the Immortal Flames story arc, Raubahn (leader of the Flames) takes part in a high-stakes duel and the winnings end up pushing him over the cusp of being one of the six wealthiest men in the city. This deposes the least-wealthy of the Syndicate members and puts him in his place (this is possibly Rycharde, who says that Raubahn ruined him that day).

Now, usually, the Syndicate is at odds with the Sultana and her advisors - they have direct control of the economy and fear anything that could assert more sway over it than they could. However, the sultana is ecstatic that Raubahn is now on the board and they seem very close friends - he even refers to the fact that his ascension to the Syndicate was a promise he made to her, with her end of the bargain to come (though, perhaps it already has - this is a flashback after all, maybe her end of the bargain was that he would lead the company. He seems to value prestige and wealth little if it didn't come with victory).