Viera as the next new race~ Show your support

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I think we can agree if people are going to quit this game it would be highly unlikely to be related to the selection of playable races. That said, the game's population is growing just fine without, 'Diverse,' races. Its more the gameplay than the races which attract players, so you're making an entirely different argument. Very few people are the sort who would go out and buy a game just because of its selection of playable races. I think we can also infer that if such had ever been SE's intent, then the polls regarding a new race from four years ago would've targeted players who WEREN'T playing the game rather than those who were.

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Yeah, but diverse race selection is a big selling point in many modern MMO's. It's an attractive feature to many players.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Right, but what is the point of making another iteration of what we already have? It's a waste of time and money.

People would play it, but it would be the same people playing their cat/dragongirl waifu right now.

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Honestly, that's a good question, and I doubt there is a good answer other than adding another iteration that is diverse from the current selection. Au Ra, for example, became highly popular with the female option, but not the male. At the moment there really isn't a male counterpart to Au Ra female in terms of height and build and aesthetic.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Right, but what is the point of making another iteration of what we already have? It's a waste of time and money.

People would play it, but it would be the same people playing their cat/dragongirl waifu right now.

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qft, basicly this

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Originally Posted by Vexander

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why bring examples then that doenst contribute to anyhting? would make sense if would said" i want new races asap!", which i didnt



Again, that people play mostly atm. cat girls i already agreed, thats the whole reason for the argument because we have already this in the game.


The population of the game is currently not growing as far as i know, but not relevant to the discussion. Also, again, you should read the quoted post, i am not saying they should introduce new races. Im against it. HOWEVER IF they have the unending need to introduce one, yes it is a more unquestionable smart move for Square Enix to make a race with the priorty to lure people in which are not playing atm. rather adding a race that is pandering to something for people which already play and have in abudance. Also you are 100 % wrong on diverse race selection is not a big selling point, any ssecond mmo and the biggest one right now is marketed with this.

Also square, as you self said, obviously dont care of pols and do what they want anyway.

So tldr: i quoted someone who said why are people against viera. I told why i am against viera and you seem to not to bring a argument against it. At most, you are saying investing ressources in non viera is and something more diverse is not a safebank, which is arguable and fair, but doenst change my point. which result in the following: No need for viera and ressources could be used on other things better, which is the reason for non viera support

we done?

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Right, but what is the point of making another iteration of what we already have? It's a waste of time and money.

People would play it, but it would be the same people playing their cat/dragongirl waifu right now.

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Ironically enough by adding more of what we already have they would actually accomplish making the game more diverse... as far a played races go.

If you think of it like this, and I'm going to be pulling numbers outta thin air here, that the percentage of hyur and miqo together pre HW made up something like 60% of the playerbase making them both roughly 30% apiece. Then, by adding Au'ra (who are largely similar to those 2) the population while maintaining that 60% is now something like 20% Hyur, 20% Miqo, 20% Au'ra.

In this way you have added diversity among the playerbase, even if the diversity you added isn't all that unique in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

we done?

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Somehow I doubt it since you -still- fail to grasp the subject matter here.

For the heck of it, let's bring up the #1 MMO on the market right now, World of Warcraft. It boasts a, 'Diverse Race Selection,' for playable characters. So, when we look at their numbers, what do we see?

For the Alliance, Human is the most played race, followed by Night Elf, then Draenei.
For the Horde, Blood Elf is the most played race, averaging somewhere just above or below 50% of the entire faction.

So looking at this, DESPITE WoW's, "Diverse Racial Selection," we again see players gravitating towards a specific kind of aesthetic when it comes to their race selection. Oddly it rather well fits what's going on over here with Miqo'te/Midlanders/Au Ra Females. Same kind of trend you saw back in GW2 as well with Humans. Funny enough, one of WoW's most popularly requested races is -High Elves-, an EXACT DUPLICATE of the existing race of Blood Elves, because players want to play on the Alliance, rather than the Horde, with their Elves.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp that a lot of players like a particular aesthetic, and proof of this is littered across the numerous games and MMOs out there.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

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I think im gonna ignore you because you either trolling at this point or have a problem with basic understanding. Lets go through this dialogue a last time in vain effort:

- Im answering to a guy who wants to know why people are anti-viera

- You quoted a post of me which i think there should be no new Race introduced to this point at the game

- IF Square Enix is feeling they absolutly need one, a non viera one a more diverse one would be better

- You are saying people play most aura girls and cat girls so people would like viera more


- Im saying YES and because people already play it and are catered with this from a business point to appeal to a customer base which is not catered base is better, again IF they absolutly need to introduce a new race you even agree (thank god) that "nobody" would quit because there is no waifu race in a expansion

- You then totally ignore that i said my primary argument was there should not be a new race at all and say race diversity is not a selling point, which is again simply false

- I say, only to correct you, that this simply factually wrong, companys advertise their game with race diversity

- then you basicly hop to a time machine and go back to point 4 of this list and say but in wow people request mostly high elfes. and i am sitting here like wtf because thats has no relevance what so ever *



*This has nothing to do wit the viera thing but to the whole wow thing:

Now lets ignore that wow HAS already a diversity in races; That this actually a counter argument for yourself because horde was the most played faction prior to the introdicion of the blood elfs, showing people choose it despite allaince having all the waifu races.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

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I think Khaoticsuccubus said it best really. An additional popular race is still offering diversity by giving people other options within the aesthetic they like. That said I find you incredibly abrasive. If you're getting frustrated by a discussion, perhaps you should step away from the computer for a while? Also.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

Now lets ignore that wow HAS already a diversity in races; That this actually a counter argument for yourself because horde was the most played faction prior to the introdicion of the blood elfs, showing people choose it despite allaince having all the waifu races.

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You do realize Horde was the lesser played faction in Vanilla WoW, so severely underplayed that it was a major issue for Horde players to be able to dungeon and raid and PvP? Blood Elves were added to the Horde -specifically- to balance out the imbalance in player population, and it was a success.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I think Khaoticsuccubus said it best really. An additional popular race is still offering diversity by giving people other options within the aesthetic they like.

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Which was already again, something come up last page, i agreed, said it is a collesal waste on ressources, which you couldnt disagree becase, AGAIN, you hoping on your time machine and going again for "people are playing cat girls". Wow now the people that play cat girls can play bunny girls, well done yoshi p, fixed the going back population since Heavensward. You know that expansion which had the dragon waifu girls you dont fail to mention 12 times.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

That said I find you incredibly abrasive. If you're getting frustrated by a discussion, perhaps you should step a

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The only abrasive thing here is your refusal tho quoting people and not read there post to make only a argument just because. Im done with you, everyone can read that you didnt brought one argument to justify introducing viera races, why even bother if you build strawmans and side disucssion which doenst have to to with aanything.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

I provide you one, only to be get ignored to contuinie this thread next page cause vieras:

Races in MMOs, and especially in FFXIV, are most times a non factor when it comes to story and gameplay, so the only really determining factor are the aesthetics. Again, this goes even more for FFXIV where origin is based for example per class starter zones instead of race starter zones and there are no racial bonuses or skills. I only mention this because you seem under the impression that this somehow even remotly comprable to other things which introduce other game concepts like TT or battle hall. Also your concept art argument does not make sense after how the whole AuRa thing turned out. Also the only concept art of viera are female which leads to my next point:

Now we have a abundance of Animal people with 99 % Human pyhsique and animal ears in the game, one recently introduced in the last expansion. And as it s common knowledge, and the team confirmed this, making a new race and implementing all this stuff is quite a workload, which ofc means other things getting the shaft.

Conclusion: If they gonna introduce a new race, something i have no personal desire whatsoever, they should make something that aesthetically (since thats the whole point of races in ff xiv) we dont have and appeal to people which are not catered by that what we already have instead of other *sarcasm* waifu race *sarcasm off*

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To you and anyone else who want more diverse races. What are you looking for? I want an example. Show me some art, i want to see what is felt to be lacking in diversity in this game. I want to see the form and face the dev team will need to animate to express emotion and use to get the un important narrative across to the player.

http://i.imgur.com/VWrOW9d.jpg

Conclusion: I want to see what a Bangaa, Seeq, Numu, Qu, Kobold, ect... look like in this scene and what suggestions the dev team could use to get the same emotions from these unique races as the other current established races.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Conclusion: I want to see what a Bangaa, Seeq, Numu, Qu, Kobold, ect... look like in this scene and what suggestions the dev team could use to get the same emotions from these unique races as the other current established races.

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Animating emotions can be done on anything. It's part of an animator's skill set. I don't find this argument to be one for or against either side here. One of the earliest tests used for Disney animators was to animate a flour sack to show different emotions. If the animators can't get you to see what the character is feeling they might need to hire better animators.

The funny thing about beasttribe races is that no one, or barely anyone plays them. Look at the mighty Galka in FFXI

http://i.imgur.com/AIARSPG.jpg
This is why we're asking for viera, since square enix has the data (like the data above) that proves that making beast tribe-like races is a waste of time.

If you guys really want a beast tribe race why not start a thread for it and give it a lot of support so that they consider adding one? Or will the enxt person that quotes me ignore my entire post and not answer this question?

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Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

If you think of it like this, and I'm going to be pulling numbers outta thin air here, that the percentage of hyur and miqo together pre HW made up something like 60% of the playerbase making them both roughly 30% apiece. Then, by adding Au'ra (who are largely similar to those 2) the population while maintaining that 60% is now something like 20% Hyur, 20% Miqo, 20% Au'ra.

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That's an interesting perspective on it.

We already have lizard people and cat people, we don't need rabbit people. If you want to be a rabbit person, you can go to the Gold Saucer and buy rabbit glamour pieces. If you play a male character, there's always Fantasia and the rename service. You could even be the tall Elezen, put on bunny ears, and pretend to be Fran if you like. I never found the race as a whole to be aesthetically appealing or even very popular. That's just me and my experiences though.

This is the company who stated in the past that they want a one size fits all for the models. What makes anyone think they will make a new race and have to remodel every damn piece of clothing from 1- w/e is the cap then. This is not wow wheres its just a skin onto the model.

Well, everyone argues a bit about which is the "master" race in FFXIV, but I think we can all agree that we already have a "mistress" race. Do we really need another one? Besides, if I was to ask something of the devs, it would be for UI improvements. I'd trade all updates, changes, expansions, etc. for the next 2 years (including SB) for improvements, changes, and fixes to the UI.

We got Highlanders. Why pick anything else?

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

The funny thing about beasttribe races is that no one, or barely anyone plays them. Look at the mighty Galka in FFXI

http://i.imgur.com/AIARSPG.jpg
This is why we're asking for viera, since square enix has the data (like the data above) that proves that making beast tribe-like races is a waste of time.

If you guys really want a beast tribe race why not start a thread for it and give it a lot of support so that they consider adding one? Or will the enxt person that quotes me ignore my entire post and not answer this question?

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I don't really see 7% being all that low, though I am rather surprised to see Tarutaru (males) reaching 17%. So I guess this means that the next race is going to be a short cute creature?

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Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai

This is the company who stated in the past that they want a one size fits all for the models. What makes anyone think they will make a new race and have to remodel every damn piece of clothing from 1- w/e is the cap then. This is not wow wheres its just a skin onto the model.

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This is my reason for not wanting Viera, the skeleton is not one that is unique enough to warrant putting in, but is different enough that gear will have to be designed specifically around it. What I would prefer is to have sub races that fit to the same skeleton, but look radically different. I was hoping that gosetsu was a new roe clan native to othard

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

The funny thing about beasttribe races is that no one, or barely anyone plays them. Look at the mighty Galka in FFXI

http://i.imgur.com/AIARSPG.jpg
This is why we're asking for viera, since square enix has the data (like the data above) that proves that making beast tribe-like races is a waste of time.

If you guys really want a beast tribe race why not start a thread for it and give it a lot of support so that they consider adding one? Or will the enxt person that quotes me ignore my entire post and not answer this question?

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I feel like there's a bit of irony in there somewhere coming from a roe and all. Together, roegadyn and elezen make up roughly 11-15% of all characters. Again, that's together. Separately, Roes average about 5% and Elezen average about 8%.

So, by your same logic, assuming we're talking about FFXII Viera here, why should they bother adding a race even remotely similar to the two least popular races in the game? By your same logic, it literally only makes sense to make Viera into another small, cute, petitie race like Miqo'te and Au Ra.

So, new question, do people honestly not care if Viera are "miqo'te/au ra types" with bunny ears? And if not, why stop there? they may as well add waifu foxes, dogs, and whatever else they can come up with.

After all, nothing says diversity quite like reskins.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

To you and anyone else who want more diverse races. What are you looking for?

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Dwarfes and Gnomes for example? Both are in the FF Lore btw. and had more apperances then vieras

btw. youre animation sentence is 100 % wrong, thats an animators job as savageink as said.

The passage with how this scene would look with other sized chracters is laughauble too, there are lalafells in this game + i could do this cutscene while wearing hildebrand glamour or with a full face covering helmet

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Originally Posted by Bjond

Well, everyone argues a bit about which is the "master" race in FFXIV, but I think we can all agree that we already have a "mistress" race. Do we really need another one? Besides, if I was to ask something of the devs, it would be for UI improvements. I'd trade all updates, changes, expansions, etc. for the next 2 years (including SB) for improvements, changes, and fixes to the UI.

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wish i could upvote this more then one time


they should not add race at all atm. especially not to pander some audience that already plays their game and has enough options on animal girls. Rather they should do more customizable for character creator which is a much more needed point in aesthetics or etablish more clan options which is something that is terrible underused imo

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

they should not add race at all atm. especially not to pander some audience that already plays their game and has enough options on animal girls. Rather they should do more customizable for character creator which is a much more needed point in aesthetics or etablish more clan options which is something that is terrible underused imo

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You've made your opinion know loudly and frequently already. Perhaps its time to leave the thread? It's purpose is to discuss the addition of Viera, not a thread to discuss never adding another new playable race and everything Square could do instead of that. If you'd like to discuss that, why not make another thread for it? I'm sure you'd have a lot of people supporting an agenda of adding more customization options to the existing races. That's something I'm in favor of as well. I'm also just in favor of new races. I feel like Square didn't add the Au Ra correctly to be honest. They would've done better to hold off on making them playable until Stormblood, the expansion where they're relevant to the story and we have a lot of in-game opportunities to learn about them.

That said, adding Viera or any new race might be something best held off on until we visit Meracydia or the New World to the West, that large unexplored continent the Mamoolja come from. Or perhaps Radz-at-Han. Really, there are a lot of places we could find new races.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

I feel like there's a bit of irony in there somewhere coming from a roe and all. Together, roegadyn and elezen make up roughly 11-15% of all characters. Again, that's together. Separately, Roes average about 5% and Elezen average about 8%.

So, by your same logic, assuming we're talking about FFXII Viera here, why should they bother adding a race even remotely similar to the two least popular races in the game? By your same logic, it literally only makes sense to make Viera into another small, cute, petitie race like Miqo'te and Au Ra.

So, new question, do people honestly not care if Viera are "miqo'te/au ra types" with bunny ears? And if not, why stop there? they may as well add waifu foxes, dogs, and whatever else they can come up with.

After all, nothing says diversity quite like reskins.

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Your part about me being roegadyn doesn't affect the galka point. There's a big difference between the races an mmo starts with and the ones that are added later. The ones that are added later are most of the time based on how popular they will be with the players. Au ra for example is for the japanese players and ended up being famous here also. Yoshida even talked about how popular viera are in the West. To summarize, roegadyn and races that are not popular are there because they need to be there for those that want something unique and will be played by some. This works the same way that jobs work. Classes like monk might not be popular but it's fine to add them at the start. After that when they're adding new jobs they only consider what the fans want (dark knight, samurai, etc).

As for your fox statement it really doesn't make sense to make animal-based races besides viera since they don't meet a requirement for adding a new race. Adding a new race is either based on being unique (and wanted) or being a classic race in the series (and wanted). Au ra met the first requirement, viera meets the second.

Does that sound familiar to how they add jobs? Dark knight is classic in the series, astrologian/mch are unique to the game.

Why have 2 sword tanks? Because they're classic jobs and people like them. Why add viera while we have miqo'te? Because they're classic and people like them.


I back up every statement that I make. I would like to see those opposed to adding viera to actually back up their statements because just opposing them without any reason besides I don't like them is getting really tiring and really shows how little thought they put into their opposition.

This in turn should prove to the devs that the ones opposed to the class have no real basis besides their own dislike and not because of a real reason.
Want more beastial race? Impossible in FFXIV
Want them not added? Make a thread for it, it works better than in a Show your support for viera thread. There's actually one opposing the viera, your voices would be better heard there.
Don't have a reason besides I don't like them? Why not state it once instead of repeating the same baseless reason 20 times? I don't like them isn't a legitimate reason, it's only an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

You've made your opinion know loudly and frequently already. Perhaps its time to leave the thread? It's purpose is to discuss the addition of Viera, not a thread to discuss never adding another new playable race and everything Square could do instead of that. If you'd like to discuss that, why not make another thread for it? I'm sure you'd have a lot of people supporting an agenda of adding more customization options to the existing races. That's something I'm in favor of as well. I'm also just in favor of new races. I feel like Square didn't add the Au Ra correctly to be honest. They would've done better to hold off on making them playable until Stormblood, the expansion where they're relevant to the story and we have a lot of in-game opportunities to learn about them.

That said, adding Viera or any new race might be something best held off on until we visit Meracydia or the New World to the West, that large unexplored continent the Mamoolja come from. Or perhaps Radz-at-Han. Really, there are a lot of places we could find new races.

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Waiting until new continent is added is a big mistake. By the time we visit a new continent outside the current map FFXIV will be at the end of its run, barely with 3 years left by the time a Meracydia/new world expansion is made.

They can come from those locations to eorzea but to wait to go there won't add any value to the use of having them. The lore would work better, but practical/playwise it would be too far into FFXIV's lifecycle.

Please, not another generic Hyur with _insert body modification here_ .

Right now only Roegadyn is the only unique race while the others are more or less copycats Q_Q

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

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Originally Posted by From Yoshida himself

A couple months ago, you showed off the new race, the Au Ra… but you also showed concept art of the Viera, who appeared in Final fantasy XII and other games. Why did you decide against their inclusion as a playable race?

The issue with the Viera is that, if you look at them, they're basically humanoid save for their long rabbit ears and their heels. We already have a mostly humanoid race with animal ears in the Mi'qote. When we looked at those initial Viera concepts, it just seemed like a Mi'qote with bunny ears instead of cat ears. It simply wasn't different enough. Especially when we did the male designs… they didn't look beastly enough, they were just a little too cute. We wanted to make something that was original to the Final Fantasy series, and to do that, we decided to step away from the Viera.


I was actually strongly against showing the Viera concept art at the event we unveiled the Au Ra at. I knew that people would be like “why didn't you include them?!” [laughs] We feel we have a good thing with the Au Ra, though. If you don't like them, though, let us know and we'll take it into consideration with the next race we bring in.

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Source

And I'm sorry, but you can't reduce the opposition to "just an opinion." Don't start that mess. That's what this whole thread is. Opinions. Viera don't deserve to be in the game more than anything else. Just because people want them doesn't make it a legitimate reason. I don't care how much support they get.

People were in favor of bigger butts. Does that mean those deserve to take up development time? People want Cloud's bike and the car-that-I-can't-remember-the-name-of from FFXV. Better add those too, eh? I bet people would freaking love to walk around the nude. Better get the dev team on it!

Your opinion is worth just as much or as little as everyone else's whether you like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

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And I'm sorry, but you can't reduce the opposition to "just an opinion." Don't start that mess. That's what this whole thread is. Opinions. Viera don't deserve to be in the game more than anything else. Just because people want them doesn't make it a legitimate reason. I don't care how much support they get.

People were in favor of bigger butts. Does that mean those deserve to take up development time? People want Cloud's bike and the car-that-I-can't-remember-the-name-of from FFXV. Better add those too, eh? I bet people would freaking love to walk around the nude. Better get the dev team on it!

Your opinion is worth just as much or as little as everyone else's whether you like it or not.

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You're too agitated now for no reason.

First of all, understand what adding a new race is. Adding a new race in a new expansion is as natural as adding a new job. It's one of the defining features of a new expansion. It's not as simplistic as adding cloud's bike. As for adding butt slider, that has as much weight as adding viera does because character customization again one of the core features of a new expansion. There are things that will always be asked for in expansions and you can narrow it down to new job, new race, more character customization with your eyes closed.

So when you say weigh our support for viera against cloud's bike you're not weighing them sincerely and with thought. More character customization on the other hand has the same kind of weight.

It's just like when trying to prove something in court. There's weight to the things you're trying to persuade with, it's not a yes or no answer. You're simplifying a discussion to a yes or no choice when those of us in support are giving you the opportunity to make the conversation deeper and with more proof to your stance.

I bring weight to my stance on them adding a new race (the most popular one being viera). What weight do you bring?

To further my point look at what Yoshida said in your quote "We feel we have a good thing with the Au Ra, though. If you don't like them, though, let us know and we'll take it into consideration with the next race we bring in." He's already asking us to support "the next race we bring in"

Adding a new race in an expansion is such a high demand that they always address it during an expansion with "no new race this expansion" or "yes: new race is"
Because they know the demand behind this "opinion"

They wouldn't do that for cloud's bike

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

You're too agitated now for no reason.

First of all, understand what adding a new race is. Adding a new race in a new expansion is as natural as adding a new job. It's one of the defining features of a new expansion.

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Except...it's not? Statistically, if you look back over every MMO expansion, you'll find that new races are rare. WoW is probably the most frequent with them seemingly adding a new every other expansion (I assume XIV will follow that trend), but they're the outliers.

And for like billionth time, you know what the opposition stands for. Me, plenty of other players, and some guy called Yoshida all feel like Viera would be too similar to several races that are currently in the game. That's why we don't want them. We want something different or just most customization options for what we already have. However, for some reason, you and a bunch of other people have just randomly decided that that's not a valid point of view for some inane reason. Why? If people can ask for Viera "just because." why can't we ask for something else "just because."

Suddenly we need ro write thesis statements? If anyone is simplifying anything, it's you. It's literally you. People have told you time and time again why they don't want Viera, and in great detail I might add, but you all just put your fingers in your ear and are like "nah, come up with a different reason please."

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

We want something different or just most customization options for what we already have. However, for some reason, you and a bunch of other people have just randomly decided that that's not a valid point of view for some inane reason. Why? If people can ask for Viera "just because." why can't we ask for something else "just because."

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Not to get into the argument but, again, why not start another thread? You don't need to start a thesis paper or anything, but you can try to address certain issues that would inevitably crop up with the idea of a new race. Say you start a thread asking for... I dunno. Tigon. A race of Bipedal tiger people with the heads of tigers and the tails. You'd need to address concerns such as how armor and weapons appear on them, for starters. You could argue you'd base the model on, say, Roegadyn, using the Miqo'te stance, with tweaks to both. How would hairstyles work on them? How do you address sexual dimorphism? Are we going Thundercats? Or full-blown Furry? A mix based on Gender? What customization options do you offer? Keep to stripes or offer spots as well, perhaps that being the difference between two Clans?

I'm all for people making discussions about things they like, but there's this weird aversion to making a new thread on these forums, it feels like.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

N

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simple

first off, as you know, it was participant of this thread who wanted to know what people having against viera inclusion

second off, as you stated, this is a forum. When someone makes a thread its for trading opinions, and not circle jerking to one. Thats like saying when someone makes a thread "healer dps should be removed" instead of discussing the pro and cons in the thread they should rather go and make a thread "healer dps should not be removed" which is childish and not the function of a forum

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I'm all for people making discussions about things they like, but there's this weird aversion to making a new thread on these forums, it feels like.

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Personally, there's a bunch of reasons why I don;t want to make a new thread. Most notably, it feels like trying to shoo away any and all criticism and/or like trying to turn this into some weird safe space. Like you (not you specifically, Vex, but just a general sorta you) only want people who agree with you because that supports your argument and I don't think that's helpful for anyone. Challenging each others ideas are how progress is made. If we all just go to our separate corners and never interact with other, it just turns into an echochamber with everyone patting each other on the back regardless of any flaws in logic.

Second, it's only going to be used as ammunition. Any time someone brings up Viera again, you know damn well the conversation is going to go like "the thread supporting Viera has almost 100 pages, but the one asking for something else only has X number of pages. I think it's clear what the people want Yoshi! Viera plz! ty"

Third, mods don't seem to mind so I assume it's okaty.

And lastly, we're 90 pages into this mess. There's no turning back now.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

Except...it's not? Statistically, if you look back over every MMO expansion, you'll find that new races are rare. WoW is probably the most frequent with them seemingly adding a new every other expansion (I assume XIV will follow that trend), but they're the outliers.

And for like billionth time, you know what the opposition stands for. Me, plenty of other players, and some guy called Yoshida all feel like Viera would be too similar to several races that are currently in the game. That's why we don't want them. We want something different or just most customization options for what we already have. However, for some reason, you and a bunch of other people have just randomly decided that that's not a valid point of view for some inane reason. Why? If people can ask for Viera "just because." why can't we ask for something else "just because."

Suddenly we need ro write thesis statements? If anyone is simplifying anything, it's you. It's literally you. People have told you time and time again why they don't want Viera, and in great detail I might add, but you all just put your fingers in your ear and are like "nah, come up with a different reason please."

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Who's stopping you from talking about beast tribe races? Can you find an instance of where that happened?
The first people who play the victim card are the ones who lost the argument.

And you can quote Yoshida 100 times, and 100 times he said "We feel we have a good thing with the Au Ra, though. If you don't like them, though, let us know and we'll take it into consideration with the next race we bring in."

But go ahead, talk about what race you want, we're listening.

And he also said, in the first paragraph of what you're quoting:

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The issue with the Viera is that, if you look at them, they're basically humanoid save for their long rabbit ears and their heels. We already have a mostly humanoid race with animal ears in the Miqo'te. When we looked at those initial Viera concepts, it just seemed like a Miqo'te with bunny ears instead of cat ears. It simply wasn't different enough. Especially when we did the male designs… they didn't look beastly enough, they were just a little too cute.

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About the decision to add au ra instead of viera, not about the future. The end of his statement stated clearly that he wants us to ask for viera for the next race if we really want them. The beginning was about viera and au ra, it was about the decision between the two. The end result of his statement is what sends us to ask for viera "let us know and we'll take it into consideration with the next race we bring in."

So he's not saying they won't consider viera as the next race as you want to manipulate with your half quote.
I know it's fun to break apart quotes and not include the part that negates your argument but it doesn't make you look good.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

And he also said, in the first paragraph of what you're quoting:

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You know, I really hate that quote. It's one of the most hypocritical things YoshiP has ever said. You could literally apply the same statement to Au'ra, the race he implemented instead.

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Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

You know, I really hate that quote. It's one of the most hypocritical things YoshiP has ever said. You could literally apply the same statement to Au'ra, the race he implemented instead.

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Aye from his own words no other race should be as beastly as AuRa since that in his mind was beastly enough... What many people complain is nothing more than Elezen with horns, skin conditions and tail.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

Dwarfes and Gnomes for example? Both are in the FF Lore btw. and had more apperances then vieras

btw. youre animation sentence is 100 % wrong, thats an animators job as savageink as said.

The passage with how this scene would look with other sized chracters is laughauble too, there are lalafells in this game + i could do this cutscene while wearing hildebrand glamour or with a full face covering helmet

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By all means do so, last i checked head gear is removed in that scene, almost as if the facial animations were paramount to the story and necessitated the characters emotions be displayed prominently to enforce the narrative. However you are correct in it being the animators job, one already taxed and un-needing of extra work for a race by and far unpopular enough to make up less than 3% of a player populace. Even for the sake "more fantasy feel" sacrificing more engrossing facial animations (accomplished by having more races with similar facial designs cutting time and resources needed to convey emotion) simply makes more sense.

That being said i still have yet to see those examples.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

Personally, there's a bunch of reasons why I don;t want to make a new thread. Most notably, it feels like trying to shoo away any and all criticism and/or like trying to turn this into some weird safe space. Like you (not you specifically, Vex, but just a general sorta you) only want people who agree with you because that supports your argument and I don't think that's helpful for anyone. Challenging each others ideas are how progress is made. If we all just go to our separate corners and never interact with other, it just turns into an echochamber with everyone patting each other on the back regardless of any flaws in logic.

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Its not about shoo'ing criticism, but about ending circular arguments. One can disagree, list their reasons, listen to counter-arguments and argue back, but at some point things go back to where they started, closing the loop, at which point, people tred over the same arguments again and again. It doesn't bring anything new to the discussion. If anything it extends the discussion even further, continuing to bump the thread to the top of the page, adding on more replies and pages (which you've noted as something someone can use in favor of the argument), etc...

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Its not about shoo'ing criticism, but about ending circular arguments.

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Going to other threads doesn't end that, it just ends debate. What ends circular arguments is facts and reason, and actually listening to facts and reason. There has been a lot of emotion and bias involved in this debate, especially from the pro-viera crowd (to the point of dismissing quotes and evidence entirely), and that is the cause of circular arguments. To be fair though, I didn't expect anything less from what amounts to simply a Viera circle jerk thread.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Going to other threads doesn't end that, it just ends debate. What ends circular arguments is facts and reason, and actually listening to facts and reason. There has been a lot of emotion and bias involved in this debate, especially from the pro-viera crowd (to the point of dismissing quotes and evidence entirely), and that is the cause of circular arguments. To be fair though, I didn't expect anything less than what amounts to simply a Viera circle jerk thread.

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Well, that right there is your issue. You can't guarantee anyone will listen, or interpret them in the same way.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Well, that right there is your issue. You can't guarantee anyone will listen, or interpret them in the same way.

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Oh I know that, I was just answering your point about making new threads. You are the one who brought up circular arguments, not me.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Oh I know that, I was just answering your point about making new threads. You are the one who brought up circular arguments, not me.

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Quite true. I just find they don't end, ever. Mostly because no one see's something the way others see it. Human nature for you right there.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

By all means do so, last i checked head gear is removed in that scene, almost as if the facial animations were paramount to the story and necessitated the characters emotions be displayed prominently to enforce the narrative. However you are correct in it being the animators job, one already taxed and un-needing of extra work for a race by and far unpopular enough to make up less than 3% of a player populace. Even for the sake "more fantasy feel" sacrificing more engrossing facial animations (accomplished by having more races with similar facial designs cutting time and resources needed to convey emotion) simply makes more sense.

That being said i still have yet to see those examples.

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Seriously? Your argument is that animating emotions on a non-human is a budgetary concern? Lol! As for non-humans being animated with emotional impact, watch a Pixar movie.