M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

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You see, For some reason people are only happy when tank are op for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

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I think it has something to do with players are afraid they will be benched for playing a certain job. I do not think anyone wants to go back to that time. I do not pug often but for the most part unless a class is grossly under performing people will accept every job.

Remember back in the day that was not the case. Say they give two play styles to healers. One easier akin to WHM and SGE, and then make SCH and AST have more depth and extra things to do. Say if they make WHM and SGE more selfish healers not much group utility and make AST and SCH give more group utility to help fill out their kit like party buffs they have the manage or something.

Unless WHM or SGE personal damage out paces what AST or SCH can do with their utility people will be like why bring WHM or SGE? But if WHM or SGE can match what AST and SCH do people will be like what is the point of AST or SCH if they can do our job with much less effort.

I think their was a time when people did complain about how easier jobs did the same or equal damage to jobs that required more perceived effort. This is a balance dilemma that is not exactly easy to fix. Someone will be unhappy.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

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Because a lot of the arguments are to take away tools from non healer jobs.

As someone who likes Paladin, I enjoy that it has a lot of utility ect. A lot of things said here are asking to take stuff away from tanks, when they're already just slow dps with some support, I even personally want more protective/utility on tanks.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Because a lot of the arguments are to take away tools from non healer jobs.

As someone who likes Paladin, I enjoy that it has a lot of utility ect. A lot of things said here are asking to take stuff away from tanks, when they're already just slow dps with some support, I even personally want more protective/utility on tanks.

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Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

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Idk I always felt the purpose of the extra utility brought by other jobs like heals and rez's was less about making healers less important but to offer a means where if the healer dies it is GG. I do not a pld alone can do healing more effectively as a healer it just so happens when you get a bunch of roles that have a degree of sustain and utility it can match what a healer can do.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

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Ok then I hope you're advocating for tanks only have provoke and healer should only know how to heal because DPS is the job of dps.

You can't see why it's sometimes fitting/healthy for certain roles to be able to do things outside their set category? funny thing is that jobs outside of healer's have always had healing tools, even on other games it can't be denied that a lot of roles have utility that Heal.

Am I saying Tanks & DPS should have full healer kits No, they don't the reason why you see tanks and DPS realistically solo content with a bunch of jobs that have a OGCD heal is because the actual in game checks are so low, If designing a few jobs with healing utility can replace both healer's why is it the other job's faults rather then the actual design of encounters and fights.

I wouldn't actually care if people cleared with 4 healers and 4 dps aslong as tanks were actually still the optimal pick, which last time I checked 99% of groups are still running healers, if 99% of groups were still running tanks and tanks felt fun still I wouldn't care.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Ok then I hope you're advocating for tanks only have provoke and healer should only know how to heal because DPS is the job of dps.

You can't see why it's sometimes fitting/healthy for certain roles to be able to do things outside their set category? funny thing is that jobs outside of healer's have always had healing tools, even on other games it can't be denied that a lot of roles have utility that Heal.

Am I saying Tanks & DPS should have full healer kits No, they don't the reason why you see tanks and DPS realistically solo content with a bunch of jobs that have a OGCD heal is because the actual in game checks are so low, If designing a few jobs with healing utility can replace both healer's why is it the other job's faults rather then the actual design of encounters and fights.

I wouldn't actually care if people cleared with 4 healers and 4 dps aslong as tanks were actually still the optimal pick, which last time I checked 99% of groups are still running healers, if 99% of groups were still running tanks and tanks felt fun still I wouldn't care.

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It’s fitting for limited crossover of job responsibility. What you are missing is the fact the tanks heal better than the healers in 99% of circumstances. The type of damage profile 14 has is much better suited to the tanks style of healing than it is for the healers healing. If you have reached a point where the tanks are healing can better than the healers you have taken a step too far

There is also the fact there is no limited crossover that allows any other role to effectively tank. It isn’t equitable crossover, it’s tanks doing everyone else’s job disguised as equitable crossover

The answer to that might be to up the damage or to nerf sustain, but only one of those options affects all content, the other only affects savage

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s fitting for limited crossover of job responsibility. What you are missing is the fact the tanks heal better than the healers in 99% of circumstances. The type of damage profile 14 has is much better suited to the tanks style of healing than it is for the healers healing. If you have reached a point where the tanks are healing can better than the healers you have taken a step too far

There is also the fact there is no limited crossover that allows any other role to effectively tank. It isn’t equitable crossover, it’s tanks doing everyone else’s job disguised as equitable crossover

The answer to that might be to up the damage or to nerf sustain, but only one of those options affects all content, the other only affects savage

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tanks do not have better healing then healers that's the most wildest take I've heard yet, the only case where this is true is warrior in AOE pulls. Please explain how Healers have worse healing tools then tanks in 99% of circumstances.

Theirs a reason why tanks barely have any cross over is because their main "role" is to press a stance and be slow DPS, the only other thing is "mitigation" which vaguely can be considered a more tank like skill, but it has cross over with healers a lot of the time, which every job has a form of mit even if tiny, healers infact have a lot more AOE mitigation and ways to prevent upcoming damage, tanks self mits are sure insanely strong, but I'm not against tuning down tank mits lol.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

tanks do not have better healing then healers that's the most wildest take I've heard yet, the only case where this is true is warrior in AOE pulls. Please explain how Healers have worse healing tools then tanks in 99% of circumstances.

Theirs a reason why tanks barely have any cross over is because their main "role" is to press a stance and be slow DPS, the only other thing is "mitigation" which vaguely can be considered a more tank like skill, but it has cross over with healers a lot of the time, which every job has a form of mit even if tiny, healers infact have a lot more AOE mitigation and ways to prevent upcoming damage, tanks self mits are sure insanely strong, but I'm not against tuning down tank mits lol.

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Because the tank heals are more suited to the actual method of healing that’s encouraged in 14

Let’s take PLD, PLD has 3 mitigations, one of them is a shield, very strong self rotational healing and 2 forms of the same mitigation that can either heal itself or heal others

So it excels at mitigating big hits on the party that the game loves to use (the only 2 classes that have more mitigation than PLD are the literal shield healers), it excels at healing itself when it’s taking damage given literally none of its commonly used heals cost DPS (hell HS is neutral and the magic heals are a DPS GAIN to press) and it excels at healing others as it loses functionally nothing to pressing intervention to heal another as they rarely need HS to heal themselves and their overheal is far less than the true healers because they don’t waste healing on healing everything with AOE heals when they don’t need to

GNB basically mirrors PLD but trades worse AOE mitigation for better shareable defensives and WAR is just WAR

The tanks are 100% better self healers than the healers and while they can’t rival the thereotical HPS of the healers they are just as effective at the eHPS needed to clear the fight

Theoretical HPS bloat of the healers isn’t useful when it isn’t needed