Tired of Zenos (spoilers)

I'd say it could be retconned if the sole source were Gaius, but with Nabriales referring to him in similar terms, it puts them in a harder position. Personally I think they made an error by offing him in HW and are trying to remedy it now. I think one thing which was weird was this interview that Ishikawa gave - her answer to me was non-committal as to him being truly "gone".

Pandaemonium could touch on any number of things, but if we go from II, with Mateus as Emperor of Heaven and Hell, one thought is the Seven Hells and Heavens, since we've no real notion of what they are barring some very prosaic descriptions in the setting and the lorebook, plus some knowledge that the aetherial realm extends both downwards ("Underworld") and upwards.

As you say, we'll see how they handle it.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes and no. Yoshi has already positioned him in the role of a villain/antagonist without sympathetic motives, so I think it'd be odd to backtrack on that, especially with Fandaniel now around. At the same time, few people take issue with the lack of a character with no underlying motive. It's more the execution which people tend to criticise with Zenos.

On the whole question of "good/evil", here's Yoshi's perspective:



I tend to agree and I rarely like how the terms are used in fantasy settings.

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I think some people, including Yoshida (given that statement), are confused why light is usually associated with good and darkness associated with evil. It's not meant to be a literal and full association since light and darkness themselves are just physical realities with no moral affinity one way or the other.

That said, reversing the associations does not erase/negate/change the concept of good and evil. Shadowbringers did nothing different in terms of good and evil, only with the respective associations with light and darkness. So, it's fine to do just to change things up a bit, but it doesn't carry any weight for arguing against the concept of good and evil regardless of the state of global affairs.

You can continue rigidly clinging to certain very peculiar, dogmatic interpretations of it, I have to admit I don't really care.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You can continue rigidly clinging to certain very peculiar, dogmatic interpretations of it, I have to admit I don't really care.

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Is it a peculiar interpretation if the story supports it or do you not care about the story? Did changing the WoL's title to WoD change who/what the WoL was? Did the WoL treat Emet or Vauthry or other Shadowbringers enemies differently than previous enemies?

I thought Zenos was a really good villian up until the point where he killed himself. After that he has just been very lackluster to the point where I dont even consider him a villain. Just some guy who sits in a chair all day

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Originally Posted by Derio

I thought Zenos was a really good villian up until the point where he killed himself. After that he has just been very lackluster to the point where I dont even consider him a villain. Just some guy who sits in a chair all day

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He’s depressed. He misses us but we ran away to the First and when we got back we couldn’t even be bothered to swing by to see our BFF for a fight? He has to threaten us with the destruction of everything just to have a nice home cooked meal of primals and a post-supper spar. I mean, you almost feel bad for the man.

I find his whole...deal to be incredibly uninteresting. Same with Fandaniel.
I'll admit a huge chunk of that can be blamed exposure to Emet and just having antagonists with emotional depth, but I didn't find Zenos very interesting in Stormblood either.

Still, after this fantastic expansion, I believe they can make them more compelling than just "strong guy obsessed with fighting you" and "nihilistic wizard"

Let's hope Zenos gets a bigger role in the upcoming expansion and is finally dealt with. It feels like they are building up his character with those tiny cutszenes, foreshadowing of what is to come, which is fine. But this stretches out for so many patches that Zenos feels rather tacked on. As if they need to remind us that he is still there somewhere plotting our downfall over literally RL yeeeears.

I need more of my other best friend, besides Alphiniud, Alisaie and G'raha Tia. Unless he kills one of them
Then I'll be cleaving his head off!

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I find his whole...deal to be incredibly uninteresting. Same with Fandaniel.
I'll admit a huge chunk of that can be blamed exposure to Emet and just having antagonists with emotional depth, but I didn't find Zenos very interesting in Stormblood either.

Still, after this fantastic expansion, I believe they can make them more compelling than just "strong guy obsessed with fighting you" and "nihilistic wizard"

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There's nothing wrong with a crazy villain who is crazy just because they can be. The issue with Zenos, in my opinion, is that he's been part of the MSQ for so long that a lot of people have simply grown tired of him. When he died at the end of Stormblood (expansion launch patch) he should have stayed dead. I've always found the whole Ascian body stealing as a cheap, lazy way to keep the plot going. The game world is huge, let's get creative and add someone new! It was when we discovered that he was "alive" after very clearly dying that I lost all interest in him. Tired of that old chestnut. Fandaniel probably would have been more interesting if he wasn't just Asahi with extra crazy on the side. Aside from the odd laughing spell and his eccentric body gestures...it's basically just Asahi being the nutcase that he is/was.

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