"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

We aren't forgetting that. Quite a few of us wouldn't step foot in a pug DF if paid. We grab our tomes from hunt trains, FC runs or simply don't bother and level in Squads, Trusts, HoH. Why do you think dps queues are so long? There are tons of players out there with a tank or healer leveled but we aren't going near DF if it means a chance of being told to shut up by an Ice Mage, tissue paper tank or a 0 dps "healer" who can't even heal properly. I run maybe one roulette every 2-3 weeks and often regret it. I don't demand they all change, I just keep away from them.

Most of us want to help. We don't want cutting edge performance from sprouts, deaths happen and are fine and as long as tanks aren't afk or st'ing mobs pulling a pack or two less than usual isn't the end of the world. Even if you play poorly, if you're trying then that's brilliant. We just want to pass on advice and help the team.

It's not that players have to learn to play correctly, you can't force them. But if baffles me when they don't want to. That you queue into a team activity, perform at a quarter your potential, know you're doing so and you're fine with it and intend to stay that way permanently. I can't wrap my head around that.



Your Trust and Squadron healers do dps, Healer class quests often require dps and you have dps abilities in your toolkit. It's just common sense.

What Yoshi is really saying is that new healers shouldn't feel they have to dps and heal at the same time as they start out. He designed everything below Savage with almost no damage checks. But he never said it's optimal at lv80 or that a 0 dps healer is just as valuable as a 10k dps healer. If you don't do any damage at all you're playing terribly. If you're fine with that, that's up to you, but it's still fact.

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I don't really disagree. I replied as such just to show that people shouldn't use Hall of the Novice as a basis of the argument since it also says things that people here would vehemently disagree with.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Because if the run is going fine there's no reason to care? If you want to argue with someone for the sake of arguing then I'm only asking that you wait until after the run. Once the run is completed you can track them down and annoy them in the guise of "helping" to your hearts content.

You'll get to convince yourself that you don't take no crap from lazy people, and I won't have to listen to it. Everybody wins.

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Why SHOULDN'T you care? Because it doesn't affect YOU? Take tanks who come into 75+ dungeons in lvl 70 gear, imagine healing that. Plus even to this level some of them refuse to use or don't know that they have defensive cooldowns. Why shouldn't you care? Because you're not that healer who will have to deal with this kind of player? Or ice mages who deal absolutely no damage? It takes not only more time to kill stuff, but to tank it and heal through it.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

This is very, very wrong. There is a reason to care. Because even if the run is going 'fine' (although I suspect we have different definitions of 'fine') by not speaking up and saying anything to a player who is playing horribly incorrectly or is doing something that they shouldn't (such as being a tank in gear 50 ilvls below the instance you're in) you will lead those players to believe that what they're doing is okay. It allows those bad habits and other such things to fester and breed, when we should, as a community, be snuffing those hints of fire out and instructing those individuals in the proper way of doing things instead.

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None of this is your job, but if you feel like you HAVE to force feed lessons to people here's how you do it.

AFTER the run you track the player down and message them in private. It's a little extra effort, but worth it if you're actually serious about helping people.

A stranger singling someone out in front of other strangers is kind of a jerk move; that's just how it is. Knowing that you should limit that kind of activity to situations where it's necessary. I'm not speaking specifically to any of your anecdotes; I'm saying it's something you should keep in mind before offering advice in general.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Why SHOULDN'T you care? Because it doesn't affect YOU? Take tanks who come into 75+ dungeons in lvl 70 gear, imagine healing that. Plus even to this level some of them refuse to use or don't know that they have defensive cooldowns. Why shouldn't you care? Because you're not that healer who will have to deal with this kind of player? Or ice mages who deal absolutely no damage? It takes not only more time to kill stuff, but to tank it and heal through it.

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If the healer can't handle it then the run isn't fine.

I've healed undergeared tanks in roulettes; as long as you're geared it's really not THAT big of a deal. These dungeons are scaled ridiculously low; if you've been ilvl synched and the tank was actually able to get into the dungeon then you're fine. It'll just take a bit longer because you can't DPS as much.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

None of this is your job, but if you feel like you HAVE to force feed lessons to people here's how you do it.

AFTER the run you track the player down and message them in private. It's a little extra effort, but worth it if you're actually serious about helping people.

A stranger singling someone out in front of other strangers is kind of a jerk move; that's just how it is. Knowing that you should limit that kind of activity to situations where it's necessary. I'm not speaking specifically to any of your anecdotes; I'm saying it's something you should keep in mind before offering advice in general.

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Tracking down someone? Are you literally suggesting targeted harassment? Jeez.. I'd have thought if you were going to offer "advice" it would be most proper to do it while actually doing said content. Where you can actually put it in practice.

Honestly, reading this thread it can feel as if the situation is clearly and very chaotic out there, with people who do badly or acting rude showing up on every instances of dungeons, raids, etc... Well, I can't claim that I have played this game for thousand of hours or years like some of you surely have done, but I've played for a while right now and occasions where people were performing really badly, acting rudely, etc, were very very very rare. Not often enough for me to get upset about it when it happens--hey, I sometimes do mistakes too. In fact I've seen more occasions people saying <I'm sorry> or <I apologize> when they screw up.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Tracking down someone? Are you literally suggesting targeted harassment. Jeez.. I'd have thought if you were going to offer "advice" it would be most proper to do it while actually doing said content. Where you can actually put it in practice.

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Eh, messaging someone isn't harassment. If they tell you to stop messaging them you probably should, though.

And like I said, a roulette isn't a classroom. If you want to try to be a teacher you do it on your time, not mine or anyone else's.

Calling someone out in front of a group of strangers isn't a context that's likely to be well received. If you want to be a good teacher you shouldn't start your relationship with your prospective student by embarrassing them in a public setting.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If the healer can't handle it then the run isn't fine.

I've healed undergeared tanks in roulettes; as long as you're geared it's really not THAT big of a deal. These dungeons are scaled ridiculously low; if you've been ilvl synched and the tank was actually able to get into the dungeon then you're fine. It'll just take a bit longer because you can't DPS as much.

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This just sounds like "if I can handle it, I don't care if others can't". And this is just wrong on so many levels. You are pretty much just an ignorant person at this point. "Do whatever just don't talk or react and maybe they won't notice me so I don't see their crap in chat"

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Because if the run is going fine there's no reason to care?

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Define "going fine." Also, wonder how much of "going fine" will be tolerated even by the worst of the bunch.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

This just sounds like "if I can handle it, I don't care if others can't". And this is just wrong on so many levels. You are pretty much just an ignorant person at this point. "Do whatever just don't talk or react and maybe they won't notice me so I don't see their crap in chat"

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The literal first thing I said is if the healer can't handle it the run is not fine. If the run is not fine then something needs to change.

In most cases the run will be fine even with a player who isn't very good, though; because everything's scaled so low. If the run is fine then there's no reason to start a bunch of crap.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The literal first thing I said is if the healer can't handle it the run is not fine. If the run is not fine then something needs to change.

In most cases the run will be fine even with a player who isn't any good, though. If the run is fine then there's no reason to start a bunch of crap.

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My suggestion to you - turn of the chat while you are in a duty. You won't see anything.
You say that it's not fine to bring (let's call it) a constructive criticism in front of strangers, but you think it's completely fine to let them all down? Because "why should you care"?