The WOL and Mass Murder

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Do SCoB players still get four legates chumped or does that not count? D:

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In the context of contributing to our theoretical infamy among the Garlean populace? No, Nael doesn't count. Only a select few Eorzeans (namely the Scions) know about the events that occurred in the Coils; I highly doubt the average Garlean citizen is aware of that.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

... ARR and later players get two. Regula was credited to Zurvan. The Emperor almost certainly knows about that, and the VIth definitely know, but other than that the information may have been suppressed.

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I deliberately said "chumped," not "killed." If you want to be technical about it, non-Legacy Warriors of Light haven't actually killed any legates. They have defeated 3 but none actually died by their hand. Gaius was defeated and had no way to escape the exploding Praetorium, Regula was defeated twice (once in undeniably canon single combat) and sacrificed himself to save Unukalhai, and Zenos was defeated but committed suicide. Nael was the only clean kill. Another detail the Garlean citizenry probably isn't aware of, but I digress.

(I'm aware of the whole Nael / Eula thing, but it's a phantom distinction. Regardless of name, she was still Legatus of the VIIth Legion, and Nael is just the more commonly used of the two.)

Going back to some older points...

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Which brings up the question (story and gameplay segregation), how exactly do you knock somebody out if you're a mechanist. I'm going down the route of wild mass guessing, but you can't exactly knock somebody out if you're shooting them with bullets, or using Flamethrower. This might be skirting a little too closely to our reality however.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Hard to keep them alive if you're slashing at them with a great-axe, or even if you're shooting fireballs at them. This is one of those places where gameplay stands apart from the story, but as is always the case, the story wins over the gameplay and you just need to hope your suspension of disbelief is strong enough.

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The closest-to-canon demonstration on this is the Heavensward demo, where the Warrior of Light gets attacked by the dragon breathing fire at him. His cloak burns away but he (and his warrior armour) is completely fine, so possibly there's some considerable enchantments on the armour that stop him from being injured in the same way that a normal person would.

(Which is also my best guess at a 'real' reason why we can't equip gear until we reach a certain level - the enchantments are something akin to the gear being 'electrified' with aether and you need a certain level of strength/ability to physically cope with it.)

Side note on machinist specifically though - it really bugged me that a few quests instructed you to use one of your battle skills as a "warning shot" to scare off intruders in town, but the animation for the skill has you shooting directly at them at close range.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Because unless you know Red magic, you can't use your own aether to use stone and air attacks. As she's only barely a CNJ who refuses to borrow from nature, she locks herself out of those branches of the art, but it is not because she refuses to use offensive abilities.

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Sylphie's issue, as she sees it, is that she doesn't want to learn attack magic, she just wants to heal - and she thinks she doesn't need to learn to attune with the elements (which from memory involves learning the attack spells associated with them) because she can heal just fine without any training. What she doesn't realise (and E-Sumi-Yan fails to explain to her) is that her intuitive use of healing magic is draining her own aether because she doesn't know how to draw the power from outside of herself.

go to eureka n bam u have your mass murder ._.

You can argue all you want about the definition or justification of murder. There has certainly been plenty of blood spilled.
I see the WoL as an exterminator. He projects power in a very specific manner. Others tell him where to do it. He assumes the reason is just. Maybe he cares. So far the public is on his side, but public perception can change easily, and the WoL does not have power in the political arena.

He is used as a tool. There must be some concern from his handlers about how powerful he grows, and whether it will eventually bite them.
But now he is also a resource. Since the revelation that the echo can be transferred, two separate scions have told him to his face that they wished they had his power, so they could act on their own agendas. Maybe the WoL is and always will be "good", but corruption can grow anywhere. Feelings of powerlessness and envy can poison even the Scions. In Lyse's case, she is under way too much pressure in a position she is not qualified for. I think the WoL needs to watch his back and his "friends".the political arena.

If there was going to be a traitor from the Scions, my finger is on Thancred. Ever since the whole business in Ul'dah, he's pretty much lost his smile. He got possessed by Lahabrea, so who knows if there's still some lingering affects that the devs hadn't touched on insofar as his aether goes. Then there was the whole business with Minfilia and the Warriors of Darkness. Lore-wise, the WoL was powerful enough to take out a primal meant to be close to Bahamut's level (something that Papalymo was barely able to seal) and Zenos.

Though it might be out of character, Thancred definitely hasn't been the same since ARR - anger and jealousy could twist him.

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Originally Posted by Slevin_Impudicus

You can argue all you want about the definition or justification of murder. There has certainly been plenty of blood spilled.
I see the WoL as an exterminator. He projects power in a very specific manner. Others tell him where to do it. He assumes the reason is just. Maybe he cares. So far the public is on his side, but public perception can change easily, and the WoL does not have power in the political arena.

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As others have pointed out, it's going to be very hard to try turning public opinion of the Warrior of Light, because almost NO ONE actually believed that they killed the Sultana. On the contrary, the WoL has the personal favor and approval of all of the top rulers of Eorzea's city states. Short of pulling a Zenos and starting to kill everyone (and even then people would suspect foul play rather than think the WoL has actually gotten crazy), I'm pretty sure he has a pretty solid good standing.

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He is used as a tool. There must be some concern from his handlers about how powerful he grows, and whether it will eventually bite them.
But now he is also a resource. Since the revelation that the echo can be transferred, two separate scions have told him to his face that they wished they had his power, so they could act on their own agendas. Maybe the WoL is and always will be "good", but corruption can grow anywhere. Feelings of powerlessness and envy can poison even the Scions. In Lyse's case, she is under way too much pressure in a position she is not qualified for. I think the WoL needs to watch his back and his "friends".the political arena.

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I really, really hope they don't go down this route. This isn't Game of Thrones. FFXIV isn't afraid to pull punches when it comes to moral greyness in certain areas and playing around with certain expectations, but it is ultimately a story about unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil, personified in the fight of Hydaleyn vs. Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by NoblePigeon

...This isn't Game of Thrones. FFXIV isn't afraid to pull punches when it comes to moral greyness in certain areas and playing around with certain expectations, but it is ultimately a story about unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil, personified in the fight of Hydaleyn vs. Zodiark.

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I can't disagree with this enough. Everything is shades of gray and always changing. Unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil is neither realistic nor interesting.

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Originally Posted by Slevin_Impudicus

I can't disagree with this enough. Everything is shades of gray and always changing. Unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil is neither realistic nor interesting.

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The setting doesn't need to be whatever anyone might call realistic in terms of good vs. evil because they exist as objective forces of nature, and SE has shown that they still do interesting things with that as well (worlds being devoured by "too much Light", the WoL's status as "the destined hero" being examined without plot armor, the WHOLE DARK KNIGHT QUEST, stuff like that).

What purpose does it serve for any of the Scions to turn on the WoL? The tone of the setting is not about everything being in shades of grey. It's not film noir, it's not Dark Souls. Why would they be jealous? All of the Scions know they have their own ways of contributing, and don't seem interested in shouldering the burdens that the WoL has to. They shouldn't be concerned about how powerful the WoL grows because the WoL has never, not ONCE shown to be anything other than a genuine good person. Which isn't without its own consequences (see again, the DRK job quest line).

There is shades of grey in the setting, and there are complex issues to tackle that aren't initially clearly defined. But the Scions shouldn't be affected by that. They toyed with that idea with Uriangier and it ended up being that he was still ultimately on our side. If a Scion, for some weird reason DOES turn bad, it needs to be for extraordinary reasons, not just because they're jealous or feel powerless.

i would like it if we can be given the choice to join the Garlean empire then have to fight eorzeans i would love to kick their booty.

https://i.redd.it/3dpu67wfbg901.jpg

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Originally Posted by Slevin_Impudicus

... Everything is shades of gray and always changing. Unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil is neither realistic nor interesting.

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This is fiction; it doesn't have to be realistic, and the writers are allowed to write whatever sort of story they wish regardless of whether or not you personally take interest in it.

You might find morally grey, "realistic" stories more interesting, and that's fine, but not every story has to be morally grey and/or realistic.