Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I wasn't saying those abilities specifically are being held down by TBN, but that DRK's kit is leaning heavily on TBN as a catch-all. Those abilities just happen to be clear weak points in the kit.

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How else, exactly, is one to read "'everything DRK is giving up to have [TBN]'" that doesn't include those things --despite having already been had, in former iterations, alongside TBN-- being sacrificed because of TBN?

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But alright, if the "They won't change X skill because of TBN" narrative is insane to you, I hope we never hear "We didn't need Y because TBN" in this thread again.

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Point to any case where that was said on the basis of TBN as the present skill and its given capacity, rather than as a design or button?

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Hard not to wonder "Hmm, now why didn't DRK get anything that measured up to those?"

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Sure. But if your whole point is that TBN isn't even as powerful as the pre-82 on-demands, it's sure as hell not going to be a reasonable answer to that question, even if ignoring that DRK had its highest ever amounts of self-sustain in the very expansion that gave you TBN and had its most extreme amounts of dungeon mitigation+healing relative to other tanks, again, in an expansion with TBN.

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And remember, until Yoshi-P says, the narrative that it has anything to do with TBN being just that good is "literally not sane."

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Correct. Previous expansions have already proven the TBN can coexist with far more self-sustain, with relative power levels wherein Holmgang isn't just by far and away better than Living Dead, and can seem plenty balanced even in a world where Paladin, a competitor, had zero self-sustain without damage loss. So why the hell would you choose it, the one unchanged element that wasn't considered overpowered even in those far more DRK-favoring contexts as the reason that DRK now lacks what it previously had (right alongside TBN)?

They could give us a mini TBN starting at level 15 with a shield providing 10% or more for the total HP. Shadowskin for appearance. Later upgraded into TBN respectively.

Dark Mind should provide physical and magical defense at 10%, being useful in both situations in dungeons and out. Blood Weapon could provide healing for every hit with a potency of 120, for example.

Living Dead can be changed with the player entering Walking Dead status while providing a significant increase in HP generation while this debuff is active, therefore not completly removing the challenge of staying alive.

As for the central theme of gameplay, Dark Arts could be re-introduced. For every succession of a Souleater combo, one pain orb can be obtained. Allowing for a free use of Dark Arts to upgrade weaponskills (Hard Slash > Spinning Slash > Power Slash), without the resource, Dark Arts would cost about 3000 MP and should only be used if there's a surplus of MP.

Once 2 orbs were used, DRK enters a state of frenzy, carrying the greatsword on one hand. Allowing for a devastating combo of 3 weaponskills and one ability called "Reverence", to finish the combo.

Just a rough idea I've had, but it would entail the removal of our current Dark Arts system. I'm not a fan of the current DRK and I think there's much that can be done.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How else, exactly, is one to read "'everything DRK is giving up to have [TBN]'" that doesn't include those things --despite having already been had, in former iterations, alongside TBN-- being sacrificed because of TBN?

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Again, by viewing TBN as the catch-all for the kit.

The devs took a hard look at tank design for Shadowbringers, and by the end of it DRK was left with TBN and a few other niche abilities for survival. Most of us didn't complain at the time because TBN was effective enough to cover it for 90% of situations... until EW dropped and suddenly tank damage intake was upscaled to fit a new paradigm of tanking that TBN was shockingly not read in on, and TBN as-is wasn't able to do everything single-handedly anymore so that you need to alternate more of your other cooldowns to survive in sustained damage situations.

That isn't "LD and DM won't ever change because it would make DRK too strong with TBN, ergo TBN must change" that's "TBN used to be so strong we barely ever batted an eye at DM and LD before, but even though nothing changed for it, now that regular dungeon encounters are leaning towards making us use everything, we're forced to examine everything."

In short, DRK retains the design philosophy it had in Shadowbringers, while the other tanks have moved forward, and it shows.

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But if your whole point is that TBN isn't even as powerful as the pre-82 on-demands, it's sure as hell not going to be a reasonable answer to that question,

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We would be arguing on different definitions of "powerful" then. The point of my argument has always ever been that in terms of its effectiveness in Wall-to-Wall pulls, DRK falls behind other tanks -- in part because TBN is poorly suited for sustained damage intake, and in part because of its other cooldowns being lackluster in general.

The devs love TBN and LD. I don't think they will ever be changed. Dark Knight is gonna forever be a Raid Tank. That is it's purpose. Dungeon content isn't for DRK. Just use DRK for raids, trials and hunts.

Happy fun times of HW/DB are long past us.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

If a character is receiving continuous damage spikes over a length of time (say, 10-12% of their health a second until mobs start dying)

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Okay but this is a completely fictitious hypothetical that doesn't match any situation in the game. Because that simply doesn't happen - anywhere. The hardest-hitting pulls in any of the current endgame dungeons hit for, at most, roughly 6000 DPS on the tank, completely unmitigated. That's not "10-12% of max HP every second"; that's more like 7-8%, and you're not even taking it unmitigated - with DRK's standard mitigation suite you're almost never taking more than 4k DPS pre-TBN in any dungeon pull. OT damage in P3S during the phases where they take the boss's secondary autos? About 4k DPS unmitigated - only about 5% per second. The very brief windows in P4S where a tank takes more than three auto-attacks consecutively? Still only about 6k unmitigated.

It's all well and good to go "Well, say there's a situation where a tank is taking this amount of damage in this amount of time," but that has absolutely no relevancy if that situation never happens. If I came in here and said "Say there was a fight that hit both tanks with a tankbuster for 120% of their maximum HP every 15 seconds like clockwork..." you would, rightfully, immediately call me out for fabricating an unrealistic scenario to suit my own argument. Yet that's exactly what you're doing here.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Again, by viewing TBN as the catch-all for the kit.

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But who, other than you, does so, given TBN's current strength? Not the concept of a shield. Its being 25% HP, on that cooldown, at that MP cost / refund procedure, in DRK's kit.

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The devs took a hard look at tank design for Shadowbringers, and by the end of it

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Tanks didn't lose defensive value over the course of Shadowbringers.

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DRK was left with TBN and a few other niche abilities for survival.

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Every tank was left with solely their 'on-demand' and a few further abilities. Some (WAR) simply were left with a more powerful on-demand (WAR) or self-heal (also WAR) than others.

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until EW dropped and suddenly tank damage intake was upscaled to fit a new paradigm of tanking that TBN was shockingly not read in on

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Then why would you blame the unchanged tool instead of the relative lack of bonuses come EW?

If I give you the same pay as everyone else and then later give you half the raise that everyone else gets, do you blame your original pay, rather than the difference in raise, for your making less than everyone else?

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In short, DRK retains the design philosophy it had in Shadowbringers

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That's not merely the same design philosophy. It's literally the same skills, outright, plus Oblation and minus Abyssal Drain (having been stuck to Carve and Spit).

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because TBN is poorly suited for sustained damage intake

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And again, the rate of damage has absolutely no bearing on the power of defensive skills outside of nonexistent scenarios whereby one must preheal Cure II every GCD and the single GCD of overheal or delay would therefore cost you your life. All that matters is how much it ultimately mitigates and heals.

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and in part because of its other cooldowns being lackluster in general.

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Not "in part". Almost wholly. Else there's no way in hell people would have been "fine," as you imply, with DRK's defensive kit before Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Seems like combining a parry buff with Dark Mind would at least resolve that particular issue, at least if they want to retain the "slightly better against magic damage" element. Sort of like a personal Addle.

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Personally I say dump it. And Addle as well. I never really found the point of trying to split/target the boss's Damage type. It's either too weak and thus is kinda just there, or it's too strong and people get picked for that.

I mean without watching a guide, what would you use Dark Mind on? That struck me as just odd even back in DRK's 'golden' age in heavenward.

Hi!
I am gonna try to make an attempt at reworking the job, so I kindly ask people to look at THE IDEAS presented and less so at numbers.

1. The job could have 2 combos:
->Hard Slash -> Syphon Strike (600mp ) -> Souleater ( heals + 20 blood )
->Hard Slash -> Delirium ( 400mp ) -> Scourge ( 21 secs DoT + 10 blood )
2. Darkside could stay the same. However its maximum duration could be increased to 120 seconds.
3. ->Living Shadow could be changed to 60 secs.
->When activated, Fray fuses with you and you get to do a new special 5 action combo. This combo would be fast paced, reducing your GCD to 2 seconds ( RDM / Reaper design ) and would be within 1 button.
->Living Shadow would drain your Darkside ( 20 secs per action from the special combo )
4. ->Living Dead could be the same as it is now in matters of CD, Walking Dead, and length.
->Your GCDs and OGCDs heal you for an amount of damage dealt.
5. ->C&S could be 30 seconds to increase frequency.
->Abyssal Drain could be 30 seconds as well. Both sharing a CD is fine, so you get to choose which one you use.
6. Blood weapon could stay the same but 5 stacks. A 40 second CD would be a bit more intuitive since you generate MP which you spend on Edge/Flood to generate Darkside preparing you for your Living Shadow.
7. Dark Arts enhances the next action used, increasing its potency. 20 sec CD. Works on Living Shadow to increase damage of all the combo. Works on TBN to grant a 35% shield, instead of 25%.
8. Dark Arts could also offer Edge/Flood a combo action. If Dark Arts -> Flood you'd get Shadowbringer. If Dark Arts -> Edge -> ? ( Shadowbringer looks like a cooler Flood, this action could be a cooler Edge )
9. ->Blood price replaces Dark Mind. Same CD and duration.
->Heals for a % of damage mitigated via damage reductions or shielding.
10. TBN
-> 25 sec CD, no MP cost
-> If broken grants 1 DarkArts only if it was augmented by DarkArts
-> At lower levels, Oblation is a 15% dmg reduction, at 70, Oblation is upgraded to TBN.

The overall flow of the job would be the kind of the same as it is now. Use Edge/Flood to generate as much Darkside, every 20 secs augment an ability with Dark Arts which bets fits the situation, every 60 secs go into your Living Shadow form to burst the enemy ( preferably augmented by Dark Arts, since they align and with a high Darkside timer), keep up your Scourge DoT, generate as much blood from your basic combos and spend it on Bloodspiller/Quietus or on Living Shadow.

DarkArts could have straight forward uses: use on Flood/Edge for damage as they combo into Shadowbringer/ ( ? ), use on TBN if you need to mitigate, use on Bloodspiller for a high potency heal ( 600? ).
DarkArts does not work with anything other than what was mentioned.

The one thing that TBN has going for it in dungeon pulls is the fact its up 10s faster than any other mitigation, so you get more uses depending on the timing of it as a whole. It's probably the only thing that makes DRK functional in dungeon content.

Something for the "just remove TBN cost and put to 25s and you fixed DRK" Xeno-parroting crowd should consider. And something the mathematicians should factor in, too; pulls aren't done when your first mitigation runs out.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

The one thing that TBN has going for it in dungeon pulls is the fact its up 10s faster than any other mitigation, so you get more uses depending on the timing of it as a whole. It's probably the only thing that makes DRK functional in dungeon content.

Something for the "just remove TBN cost and put to 25s and you fixed DRK" Xeno-parroting crowd should consider. And something the mathematicians should factor in, too; pulls aren't done when your first mitigation runs out.

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But tbn is a set hp shield so it doesn’t matter how long it is up. A shield and a mitigation skill aren’t same in any shape way or form. Shields scale better with dmg mitigation but here is the kicker because Drk already has the least dmg mitigation skills. The more hits you take, the weaker a shield gets as a dmg reduce option and in the same moment hard % mitigation gets better. A well timed HoC reduces more dmg then 2 tbn could and you get a heal on top