Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Healers tend to receive really bad advice from people in the community who don't heal main. This time the dodgy advice on when healers should use lucid might stem from lucid being a skill enjoyed by both casters and healers, and casters often wouldn’t realize just how important the skill is for proper healer mp management (essential).

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I don't really want to continue the argument, but I just have to say this.

I think a lot of the advice here was good. Someone mentioned that Lucid can usually be timed to manage your MP and drop aggro, killing two birds with one stone. That's absolutely true.

The problem is rarely healers because Lucid is so essential to MP management.

The problem is DPS like BLM, who never use Lucid because they don't need it, so they save it for a panic button. They don't realize that if they were to use it (and Diversion), a tank would gain a roughly 21% DPS increase over the course of a dungeon. That's huge, and it absolutely is better in the long run.

The above isn't even the BLM's fault. A lot of DPS end up in bad pugs. In these cases, saving Lucid as a panic button is the smarter choice.

But it's not the smarter choice when you have a group that's trying to optimize their clear times.

And again, no one's at fault because it's impossible to predict how good X pug tank and Y pug healer will be if you use Lucid right now. And a lot of DPS are afraid of being blamed for stealing aggro and dying while Lucid/Diversion are on CD, which is a legitimate fear.

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Originally Posted by Lynesse

I don't really want to continue the argument, but I just have to say this.

I think a lot of the advice here was good. Someone mentioned that Lucid can usually be timed to manage your MP and drop aggro, killing two birds with one stone. That's absolutely true.

The problem is rarely healers because Lucid is so essential to MP management.

The problem is DPS like BLM, who never use Lucid because they don't need it, so they only use it as a panic button. They don't realize that if they were to use it (and Diversion), a tank would gain a roughly 21% DPS over the course of a dungeon. That's huge, and it absolutely is better in the long run.

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BLM doesnt need extra MP regeneration and uses Lucid as a "panic button" to avoid taking aggro? That's a..... bad thing? It's almost as if Lucid has TWO effects that have TWO different uses. Whould'a thunk it. I never knew.
I thought y'all were advocating FOR this, not against it.

as for diversion increasing tank dps..... not by itself. that depends on alot of factors. one of which is if they notice diversion in the first place and drop tank stance at all. i dont see this happen in dungeons. i'll play nin and SHADEWALKER the tank.... still losing that 21% magical DPS.
Also, as a RDM, this is also really relavant. remind me again how many mp management tools we have? lucid. Doesnt stop me regularly eating tankbusters, even in 24-mans where all the tanks whip it out for aggro parties. It's there to serve dual purposes. use it.

fact of the matter is, should and shouldnt doesnt really matter at that point. Once again, lucid has TWO effects. if one of those effects become relevant, use it. good luck managing mp after a tankbuster tears you in half.
It's fine and all to have stubborn pride and wave your cane at those dirty filthy casual whippersnappers on your lawn and all.... but at that point its only your own stubborn pride to blame. and if you were using lucid properly for proper mp management to begin with, you wouldnt have aggro. period. So the fact of the matter is, regardless of whatever happens, getting aggro as a healer is 99 times out of 100 completely your fault OR preventable.

Had a interesting DF experience running roulette get queued for a low level dungeon. (hakkute manor) to be exact. Dungeon starts healer stands around ago for about 5 min and when they do catch up to the party I ask them to cast protect.

Healer (not even a white mage yet still a conjurer) decides to curse me out and say "you only need protect if you're a mage dps. Tanks don't need it because we have high hp" .

Then proceeds to repeatedly use the n word and says "I'm reporting you for refusing to tank without being healed"

What?

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Snip.

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It's not a bad thing. Sorry! I edited my post to be more clear on this.

It's a good thing -- but it's never needed in that capacity in a good group.

It's additionally very hard to tell what a good group is when you're in a pug. That's the reason this discussion is happening. My point is that we shouldn't be pointing fingers at each other, but more at the wonky game design -- which is being fixed.

Also, about your Diversion bit -- it's a bit pedantic. If I said a "good" tank, it would've saved us both time.

Edit: Just one last thing. RDM's aggro is spread evenly over a group because of Scatter. On bosses, Diversion solves the issue of RDM front-loading their potency. RDM can, in fact, save Lucid strictly for MP management.

You're correct, and we're in agreement!

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Originally Posted by Lynesse

It's not a bad thing. Sorry! I edited my post to be more clear on this.

It's a good thing -- but it's never needed in that capacity in a good group.

It's additionally very hard to tell what a good group is when you're in a pug. That's the reason this discussion is happening. My point is that we shouldn't be pointing fingers at each other, but more at the wonky game design -- which is being fixed.

Also, about your Diversion bit -- it's a bit pedantic. If I said a "good" tank, it would've saved us both time.

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maybe im being needlessly confrontational because this discussion shouldnt even be happening. use your buttons... so i apologize for that.

Yeah, suppose the diversion thing is in that regard, but i was of the opinion that all these aggro discussions were an "advanced premade tactic" or whatever was said. yknow, as if it just doesnt exist in PUGs. meanwhile in actual reality with the rest of us, PUGs are the -only- place it exists. If we are considering "good tanks" only and in the first place, the entire point is pedantic from conception.

That said, im less about the specifics here and more about the mentality. it doesnt matter about the mp regene or aggro drop. its the fact that "you shouldn't do that" even though its the part of your ability. If youre ripping aggro of all of your tanks regularly and refusing to use Lucid, thats on you in every case. and looking down at others for pointing that out is...... not good? I dont think thats a specific thing to Lucid at that point, yknow?

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Originally Posted by Shirosama

Had a interesting DF experience running roulette get queued for a low level dungeon. (hakkute manor) to be exact. Dungeon starts healer stands around ago for about 5 min and when they do catch up to the party I ask them to cast protect.

Healer (not even a white mage yet still a conjurer) decides to curse me out and say "you only need protect if you're a mage dps. Tanks don't need it because we have high hp" .

Then proceeds to repeatedly use the n word and says "I'm reporting you for refusing to tank without being healed"

What?

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So when the vote kick passed (Cause at that point DPS should have been livid enough to initiate) What was the new healer like?

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

maybe im being needlessly confrontational because this discussion shouldnt even be happening. use your buttons... so i apologize for that.

Yeah, suppose the diversion thing is in that regard, but i was of the opinion that all these aggro discussions were an "advanced premade tactic" or whatever was said. yknow, as if it just doesnt exist in PUGs. meanwhile in actual reality with the rest of us, PUGs are the -only- place it exists. If we are considering "good tanks" only and in the first place, the entire point is pedantic from conception.

That said, im less about the specifics here and more about the mentality. it doesnt matter about the mp regene or aggro drop. its the fact that "you shouldn't do that" even though its the part of your ability. If youre ripping aggro of all of your tanks regularly and refusing to use Lucid, thats on you in every case. and looking down at others for pointing that out is...... not good? I dont think thats a specific thing to Lucid at that point, yknow?

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It's okay! I think you misunderstood my initial stance. I agree with you! :D

You're right about so many things, actually!

In a way, I feel you've defended me here, too.

I've been playing PLD a lot. I'm a good tank. I study hard, and I practice a lot. A lot. I can tell when a DPS isn't used to playing with a tank like me. It forces me to take a lot of extra steps to secure aggro because I don't want to spend the entire run in Shield Oath (although I have when necessary). It's frustrating at times, and it's not the DPS's fault at all.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

So when the vote kick passed (Cause at that point DPS should have been livid enough to initiate) What was the new healer like?

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Dps was new as well and didn't do anything more than comment about how they were laughing at the situation in their discord chat

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

That said, im less about the specifics here and more about the mentality. it doesnt matter about the mp regene or aggro drop. its the fact that "you shouldn't do that" even though its the part of your ability. If youre ripping aggro of all of your tanks regularly and refusing to use Lucid, thats on you in every case. and looking down at others for pointing that out is...... not good? I dont think thats a specific thing to Lucid at that point, yknow?

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I ran a dungeon yesterday with a tank who was in sword oath the entire time as a farewell to sword oath. Ripped aggro off him with every trash mob when I used assize and holy, and no I wasn't popping lucid for him. And if I was asked to my answer would still have been no. And if I had ripped aggro off him on the boss and was asked to pop lucid the answer would yet again be no. It was actually a really fun run, it turned an easy dungeon into a spicy dungeon and I don't mind that, and I had a smile on my face when I finished it. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm keeping lucid for my purposes, not the tanks.

If a healer properly uses lucid for mp management and still rips aggro off the tanks, unless it's a mechanic or medica2 pre pull, it's 100% a stuff up from the group. And no, once again, healers do not use lucid in general to lower threat I don't care how many times you say it. Don't give healers that advice, it is bad advice.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

I ran a dungeon yesterday with a tank who was in sword oath the entire time as a farewell to sword oath. Ripped aggro off him with every trash mob when I used assize and holy, and no I wasn't popping lucid for him. And if I was asked to my answer would still have been no. And if I had ripped aggro off him on the boss and was asked to pop lucid the answer would yet again be no.

If a healer properly uses lucid for mp management and still rips aggro off the tanks, unless it's a mechanic or medica2 pre pull, it's 100% a stuff up from the group. And no, once again, healers do not use lucid in general to lower threat I don't care how many times you say it. Don't give healers that advice, it is bad advice.

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I have tanked trash packs as a healer because of Tanks like this, so I really feel you lol.

Lucid Dreaming is not an excuse to play an entire dungeon in Sword Oath without ever holding aggro.