Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Nobody's saying it's an issue in those scenarios. The argument here is more about its use in AoE scenarios.

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The problem is that that is literally where TBN is at its strongest, and yet no matter how many times any of us come in here with an actual argument backed up by real logs of existing game content or even just simple arithmetic based on the game's mechanics and tooltips, we are constantly met with "Hm, sorry but I have to disagree with basic, straightforward mathematics, btw here's a link to a Youtube clown" followed by turning back to everyone else participating in the evidence-free circlejerk about how it's a bad skill in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Crater

The problem is that that is literally where TBN is at its strongest, and yet no matter how many times any of us come in here with an actual argument backed up by real logs of existing game content or even just simple arithmetic based on the game's mechanics and tooltips, we are constantly met with "Hm, sorry but I have to disagree with basic, straightforward mathematics, btw here's a link to a Youtube clown" followed by turning back to everyone else participating in the evidence-free circlejerk about how it's a bad skill in dungeons.

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It's all risk and the reward is the minimum of what the other 3 can do. You have to build whole comps around DRK or it fails. It's too rigid and it's reward is only pulling 2% ahead in dps over GNB. It's the epitome of "random shit go, hope it's cohesive" or "glad y'all are having a good time, cause I'm about to die." It's not a circle jerk, it's we want to enjoy DRK and not have to be in a static to do it. It's a confused dps in fending armor until REAL work happens to it.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

While TBN does negate as much if not more damage overall compared to alternatives, the point is for the tank to slow down their damage intake enough for them to be healed over the course of the encounter, not to stop it all for 3 sec so that I have to burst heal them for the remainder.[/SIZE]

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No. If it absorbs more damage, you have to heal less damage. Period.

The only time what you're talking about here would ever trump total mitigation is if you had to maximally GCD every heal and overheal in any GCD would put you in such a deficit that they would inevitably die. That just does not happen unless

It is not hard to heal a competent DRK. You just don't overheal them, and don't mistake TBN for Hallowed Ground. That's it. That's the difference. And if it breaks in "a single GCD", as you say, well, then it at most delays your (Eukrasian) Diagnosis spam by 1.5 seconds.

On my DRK, I almost never get GCD heals save for a EukDiagnosis pre-pull (maybe another when my Sage is repositioning if they've run out of Addersting), and I stay up just fine. On my alt, I rarely do more than pre-pull GCDs on my DRKs, and most stay up just fine. If I go with a friend, it is entirely just pre-pull shields, Kardia, and oGCDs.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Nobody's saying it's an issue in those scenarios. The argument here is more about its use in AoE scenarios.

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The number of sources of damage is irrelevant to TBN's performance. However, the rate of incoming damage typical and the granularity of intervals of attack typical to dungeon trash pulls cause TBN to do especially well in those exact situations.

At risk of, par for the course, conflating correlation with causation, TBN has no issue with AoE scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

You are clearly determined to defend this hill. And that’s fine. Respectfully, I can’t agree with you. Been tanking in this game as my main since 1.0 far too long.

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That the only thing that matters about mitigation is how much, in practice, it mitigates is not some "hill". Your instance that the effect taking place over a greater amount of time or via a scalar, regardless of actual total throughput, on the other hand...

Imagine, for instance, that you have the option between a 1000-potency oGCD on a 2-minute cooldown or a 15-second 20% damage buff over which the time the most potency you can fit in is 4850. The latter isn't just inherently better. Nor would it be inherently more powerful for a 1000-potency heal to be done as a HoT than as a single, direct heal. The span is irrelevant. All that matters is how much effective throughput, be that damage, healing, mitigation, or healing+mitigation, that the tool has.

Percentile mitigation over a duration does not "always win out" over a shield. One defensive tool surpasses another only when its combined mitigation and healing exceeds that of another. That is it. And TBN does not "always", let alone all that often, lose out in that comparison, despite not even having a trait.

Of course, if we wanted to actually stop conflating and give complaints about TBN any sort of real relevance, we'd compare TBN against Raw Intuition, Shelltron, and Heart of Stone, and then Oblation against what's added by their respective traits. Does Oblation then badly take the loss in each of those comparisons? Yes. But that's the level 82 additions, not TBN.

If the tank sustains itself better, then you won't have to heal either. Mitigation is good in a perfect world. The average healer hates drk players because they require the most attention. The average player has to deal with other player's short comings and DRK has no ability to do so. I didn't realize how spoiled I was because I had an amazing healer starting out and once I dealt with randoms, I took my ass back to PLD.

TBN + Oblation would be better if Oblation was 20% mitigation. It would amount to about 30% mitigation across 3 separate 15 second windows with Rampart, Ob1, Ob2, and then a beefier Shadow Wall window. And I feel at that point DRK at 90 has good mitigation.

Oblation as is, is probably too weak from a Tanking perspective.

A level 82 skill has no business being weaker then Rampart which is 90s CD for 20 seconds as opposed to 10. Rampart does double the work and is available at lvl8.

And the lack of sustain will not help the DRk where sustain is needed or if Walking Dead pops.

Furthermore the best healer to pair DRK with is also the worst since it's going to be pointless using TBN if they will be stunlocked by Holy Spam anyway and then the mob group is dead.

Now raids different story. It very much is White Mage with the chokehold that is Benediction.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

TBN + Oblation would be better if Oblation was 20% mitigation.

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A 20% Oblation might be overkill. It need only compete with the other lv82 effects given its longer than normal 1-minute CD (rather than a shorter-than-average, 15-second one).

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A level 82 skill has no business being weaker then Rampart which is 90s CD for 20 seconds as opposed to 10.

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Then should they also be stronger than our invulns, given that they're mere lv50 skills? The level is irrelevant except in that Oblation, Catharsis and Clarity (Corundum's bonuses), Resolve and Benediction (Holy Shelltron's bonuses), and Stem the Flow and Stem the Tide (Bloodwhetting's bonuses) were also gained at the level and Oblation is obviously meant to compete with them.

Are Catharsis and Clarity stronger than Rampart? Knight's Resolve and Knight's Benediction? Stem the Flow and Stem the Tide? Again, those are all we need Oblation to compete with. They may be more valuable than Rampart; they may be less. It doesn't matter, though. Rampart isn't our benchmark. The added trait effects are.

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Furthermore the best healer to pair DRK with is also the worst since it's going to be pointless using TBN if they will be stunlocked by Holy Spam anyway and then the mob group is dead.

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Unless you're running old content unsynced, mob groups are not going to die within the Holy spam's stunlock (which is rarely even a true stunlock).

You can pop a TBN before your average DF WHM even gets their first Holy off. Failing that, unless they open with Swiftcast, the 2nd Holy will hit while the enemies are already stunned and will be resisted, allowing through an auto from each, and successful stun after that won't have sufficient duration to chain-stun, allowing yet another auto through just 2 seconds later. You still have 4 seconds thereafter in which those stuns cannot delay autos (as they will only prevent AA completion, not stop progression towards next AA). Long story short, only a Swiftcast-opened Holy spam, with its initial chained 6 seconds' duration, can possibly prevent TBN. You can watch your WHM's buffs to see whether they're going to do that, run sufficiently ahead and get your first TBN usage done with first anyways, or at worst wait 3-4 seconds. WHM does not, however, screw you over. In most cases, you'll no reason even to notice they're stunning at all.

Well honestly I don't think Oblation needed to exist at all. DRK already had Rampart, Shadow Wall, Repraisal, Dark Mind and Dark Missionary on top of TBN.
If you've somehow managed to exhaust all that, I don't think a 10% mitigation is going to save you.

It desperately needs more utility rather than pure defenses, whether that be a heal or MP generation or whatever, thats up for discussion. But as it stands, oblation isn't terribly useful.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

I wouldn't be so sure on that. Squeenix certainly didn't shy away to alter AST Jobquests with ShB changes, so it will most likely happen with other Jobs as well when certain Skills get reworked or straight up removed.

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here's the deal tho.
SE actively dislikes healers, so as punishment their gameplay as a whole is neglected.
DRK is the only tank SE seems to have a grudge against.
(This post is a joke.)

Oblation just doesn’t feel satisfying, especially if used alone. Using it with TBN feels okay defensively but I dunno. Oblation doesn’t do it for me as is.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Well honestly I don't think Oblation needed to exist at all. DRK already had Rampart, Shadow Wall, Repraisal, Dark Mind and Dark Missionary on top of TBN.
If you've somehow managed to exhaust all that, I don't think a 10% mitigation is going to save you.

It desperately needs more utility rather than pure defenses, whether that be a heal or MP generation or whatever, thats up for discussion. But as it stands, oblation isn't terribly useful.

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This exactly. DRK needs a level 82 upgrade for TBN and it do the same as HOC and HS. We really don't need anymore buttons to press, we need improvements to the overall kit and Living Dead.