What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They've basically left the ancient Azem's actions open to player interpretation for now at least and down to how their character would react, without committing to it. With that said, it'd sit ill at ease with me for my character to basically screw over their people for non-ancient life forms, if it amounted to that, which I'm not too convinced of for now, particularly because I believe they're trying to steer clear from that as the focal point given how polarising it could be. Having them be complicit in her actions would more or less be the final straw for me and I think they'd be wise to leave it as it is if that's where they're going with it.

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Azem being #TeamSundering is inconsistent with what we've seen of their reincarnations as well. Neither Ardbert or the WoL would've been on board with it. It's another issue I have with them depicting Venat as they did, not only as extremely likeable but also as former Convocation and Azem's mentor, because the question then becomes why wouldn't Azem be on her side? There also isn't anything story wise that would prevent Azem from having worked with her in secret unlike with Zodiark it's made abundantly clear Azem had no hand it to the extent that they were considered a traitor and denied a memory crystal.

I think the writers/devs should've stuck with Azem absolutely not being on either side, but now they've left it ambiguous for Hydaelyn. At most we have the Anyder scene where one of her followers says Azem essentially isn't returning their calls.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

But I do want to go ahead and say I think Emet’s characterization in the scene itself – and possibly, if you want to extend it, him maybe going to bat for Hermes when they brought him before the Convocation – is consistent, and I think it makes sense given what we know of him and what we’ve seen up until that point.

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What are your thoughts on his scenes in Ultima Thule? It's the only part where I thought his characterization was questionable. He hated Hydaelyn in ShB, now suddenly because he knows it was Venat he's only slightly perturbed? Then there's the controversial line of "Still, you must be commended. Our methods would not have brought mankind this far." Which, upon viewing that scene again, is that even meant for Venat? Emet is looking directly at the WoL when he says it after which he says "And so, as a show of respect to the last of us (which I took to mean the WoL), I make this declaration."

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

It's another issue I have with them depicting Venat as they did, not only as extremely likeable but also as former Convocation and Azem's mentor, because the question then becomes why wouldn't Azem be on her side?

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On that particular point, I seem to recall it is our Azem that describes her as a "warm person yet simultaneously distant", as relayed by... Hythlo? My brain is mush today. I've always found this line to paint her in a very ambivalent way, and personally I choose to interpret it as Azem knowing her better than most, which might be exactly why they might not immediately jump to her side.

Reviewing my screenshots, I can (unfortunately) confirm Emet's line in Ultima Thule was meant for Venat. 3rd person gendered female in French, my WoL is male. As for "a show of respect to the last of us (which I took to mean the WoL)", well...

Here, I'm handing you back the copium still.

Oh, ohh, I know what plausibly makes it very coherent in-universe: de-tempering via death combined with Zodiark's. Look, I hate it, but...

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Reviewing my screenshots, I can (unfortunately) confirm Emet's line in Ultima Thule was meant for Venat. 3rd person gendered female in French, my WoL is male. As for "a show of respect to the last of us (which I took to mean the WoL)", well...

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Wow, this makes me feel ill. Not only do they drag him back to give a speech about what a smarty this sociopath was, he says this and is referring to her? Didn't think this could actually get worse.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Reviewing my screenshots, I can (unfortunately) confirm Emet's line in Ultima Thule was meant for Venat. 3rd person gendered female in French, my WoL is male. As for "a show of respect to the last of us (which I took to mean the WoL)", well...

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Thanks for further ruining that scene for me. :P j/k Venat doesn't exist in any capacity at that point, it doesn't even make sense for him to refer to her as "the last of us".

Speaking of which, did Elidibus know Hydaelyn was Venat? This has been bugging me because he also says (as he sends us to Elpis) "Yours is the mantle of the last of us."

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As for Emet-Selch, it was always clear to me that he cared more than he let on. I don't think, for example, that it was a coincidence that he sought to empower the very people who suffered the most amongst the Sundered as a consequence of the Sundering. Namely the Garleans. It makes me wonder what he would have done had his son not died in the way that he did.

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That must be it, or why he would hang out in freezing area for so long when he hated cold?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Thanks for further ruining that scene for me.

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I'll never forgive the JapaneseFrench!

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Speaking of which, did Elidibus know Hydaelyn was Venat? This has been bugging me because he also says (as he sends us to Elpis) "Yours is the mantle of the last of us."

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No idea about this one. In his last lines he only calls her Hydaelyn while acknowledging her as the last of "authentic mankind". It's entirely possible that he doesn't remember the person she was.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Honestly, the fact that whatever law it is about memory wiping even exists in the first place, the overall complex processes surrounding their creation magicks (evaluation, official approval and archiving, etc), and Themis making casual mention of mind control spells in Pandaemonium (and that he flat out asks Eric "you would rather capture Hesperos than take him out after what he did?" honestly my little guy I don't know what sort of things you've been witness to so far but eesh) make me believe that bad stuff has definitely happened in their history (or that, at least, they were absolutely not naive about potential disaster). After all, this is a world where anyone could potentially come up with a world-ending creation and simply not tell anyone or register it anywhere. Personally, the way I view Ancients is that every single of them could be a ticking time bomb, and yet they've apparently been living in peace for who knows how long, which is, frankly, a miracle.

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Yup, they're acutely aware of such risks. The backstory of their custom of the robes and masks does suggest a more conflict-ridden past they moved away from and Venat utters similar words when she mentions they were only spared of suffering for a time. You can also see it in the regulation over the concepts and the tight control over facilities like the Anyder ones, plus the security protocols Pandaemonium has, to sever it from the rest of the world if it were to become a problem. Elpis is the stand out in all this, and even then like I mentioned, it had attracted the interest of a member of Anamnesis Anyder's operations for the lack of clarity on some of its procedures. I also read it as being the basis for why Azem violating the Convocation's protocol in the Elidibus short story is a reason for censure in the first place - they have these controls in place for a reason. Meteion is rather unique in that she was based on a form of energy that was elusive to them (and apparently virtually every other civilisation.) It's why I mention the idiot ball being rather specific to Elpis.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Wow, this makes me feel ill. Not only do they drag him back to give a speech about what a smarty this sociopath was, he says this and is referring to her? Didn't think this could actually get worse.

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At this point I'm half expecting if we do run into any of the unsundered souls from Zodiark that they'll all be wearing "We <3 Venat!" T-shirts. :P Please explain to me again how the narrative depicted her as morally grey when one of her primary victims is commending her?

I don't see MSQ sending us back to Elpis, but luckily the raid tier involves Elidibus and Lahabrea within Pandemonium under Elpis, so maybe through that storyline we might get more information about the pre-sundered convocation that might provide some hints or clues to fill in the gaps. At least, I am hoping it isn't just some one-off thing that just happened for the sake of happening. Some part of me wonders if the concept(maybe in form rather than just an idea) of Zodiark existed before the final days as a creation of Lahabrea and we will see evidence of it in Pandemonium.

I'm mostly wondering what manner of meaningful pay-off there's going to be with Pandemonium because the laws of causality dictate that any changes our actions made there have already happened.

I'd like something more then just making us feel worse about Elidibus' fate, like the foreshadowing of some new threat that's only partially quelled during the events of the raid.