I will never stop laughing about this scene and the lack of any kind of logical followup. They all come out of Ktsis, Emet-Selch is mad as hell that their memories have been wiped, everyone around them is like "but where are the other two people who went in with you?" and "oh look! there's Venat's dog so she must be ok somewhere" and Hythlodaeus is all "a strange familiar? I'll have to ask about that" and then nothing comes of this?? Wouldn't any normal person want to know why five people went in and three came out? Emet-Selch just brushes off the memory wiping machine that was so shady prior to this that he mentions Pashtarot may have a mild coronary when they find out it exists, and gets back to Convocation business? No one wants to investigate exactly wtf this guy has been allowing to happen on his watch at the research facility before considering him for the Convocation? Or wtf Venat was doing after everyone mentions her being at the scene of the accident?Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraq
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03-16-2022, 01:11 AMPawPaw
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03-16-2022, 01:33 AMTeraq
I understand why people treat Ancients as stupid strawmen unable to learn, grow or even just apparently communicate with each other; after all, the second you stop doing so, the plot of Endwalker just kind of falls flat on its face.
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03-16-2022, 02:06 AMBrinne
I agree it’s pretty silly that the circumstances weren’t further looked into, and that the truth obviously would have begun to crack open with the slightest scrutiny. Hythlodaeus’s comment about Venat is particularly bizarre, as it leaves us with the implication that beyond generally staying silent about what happened… did Venat, uh, blatantly lie to Hythlo’s face, too, when questioned?
But I do want to go ahead and say I think Emet’s characterization in the scene itself – and possibly, if you want to extend it, him maybe going to bat for Hermes when they brought him before the Convocation – is consistent, and I think it makes sense given what we know of him and what we’ve seen up until that point. Remembering the whole scene, Emet isn’t just brushing aside the question of the lost memories because he considers it unimportant – he’s prioritizing making sure Hermes is okay. The false memories after the wipe, as Venat said, left Hermes devastated because he believes Meteion just exploded before his eyes, so Emet is focused on that.
Because before things went to hell in Ktisis, Emet obviously really, really liked Hermes and sympathized with him a lot. Emet, of the three Ancients in our group, is the one who dwells on the fact of Hermes’s suffering and wonders more deeply upon it, trying to imagine what it would be like to feel as he does. When you talk to him directly after Hermes has his huge meltdown over the murder wolves, Emet’s comment - his response to that entire debacle - is that he thinks Hermes would be an excellent Fandaniel, and that the Convocation would be lesser without him. This is what he got out of seeing Hermes’s explosion of pain. He’s sympathetic. He repeats and urges him to take the offer to join the Convocation after he sees it happen – because he feels terrible for him and sees that this job is causing him misery, and also, I think, to offer him a platform to raise his concerns to a higher level where maybe he’ll be able to enact change. You’ll notice that Emet, in a way that might be a little surprising given how caustic he tries to be – also stays silent and just takes it when Hermes blows up in his face during that same meltdown.
Even from the beginning, when Emet is trying to kick us out of highly confidential Convocation business, he relents and lets us tag along because Hermes says he’ll feel better if we’re there for the conversation. Giving in to helping out Hermes with the charybdis – and when he lets his guard down, outright beaming about it – also speaks for itself. Emet is also the one who first proposes bringing Hermes into the group to figure out what’s going on with the Final Days and getting his help in understanding them. Emet-Selch is a bleeding heart. So of course at the end he’s not actually that concerned, asides from his usual tsundere whining, about what was done to him when he thinks Hermes could be seriously hurt.
(This all becomes sort of darkly hilarious because it's apparent that Hermes hates Emet. Really, at the edge of oblivion, the end of your tale, the end of the world, the person you focus on is Emet-Selch in hopes that he's seething as hard as possible? Okay my dude.)
We already saw Emet tell Hermes to take the Convocation seat because “oh no he’s sad” once. I could easily see him doing it again in the wake of Hermes mourning Meteion and beating himself up over the “accident.” Yes, Emet fussing about Hermes and offering him a seat on the highest governance in the world because he felt really bad for him is pretty dumb. But then again, literally every single thing he did in Shadowbringers in terms of reaching out to us was also pretty dumb, and led directly to his own demise. As Ishikawa said, his kindness is his downfall - pretty consistently, it turns out. -
03-16-2022, 02:38 AMLauront
It also makes Elidibus's approach, of abstaining from drawing memories, seem pretty logical, since it allowed him to focus solely on completion of his task, and prevent sentimentality or nostalgia from interrupting it.
As I was reading through your post, the first thing which came to mind was that Ishikawa comment, which you added at the end - if you look past Emet's harsh exterior, and focus on his actions as his ancient self, and what drove him as an Ascian, it hangs together.
And yes, the fact that further investigations were not conducted is indeed one of the sillier parts of the plot, which further adds to the impression that it was somewhat poorly cobbled together/thought out in parts and one of those aspects you're meant to just overlook or it begins to crumble... maybe the suppression field in Ktisis was beginning to affect everyone's cerebral functions on Elpis as well. Ultimately they left it so that without Venat raising the matter, it wouldn't be looked into. It's also interesting, because I believe the oversight in the approval processes for living creations in Elpis may have eventually been addressed, as one of the sidequests revolves around one of the members of the Anamnesis facility seeking further detail on that aspect of their work due to lack of detail. -
03-16-2022, 02:53 AMKolsykolQuote:
Originally Posted by Teraq
This sorta hinges on people believing it's Hermes's fault tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
I can't remember exactly but I don't think it was said that it was Hermes who like single-handidly built it or anything.
Even tho yes two extra missing people is weird in the grand scheme of things I don't think it'd change anything.
Hermes was already considered for the position and there's no reason to believe he was behind it, as far as they knew he was a victim too and the missing two were the culprits or it was simply an accident.
The Ancients before this I think it's at least implied didn't exactly have a lot of bad stuff happening, and considering what they were up to and creating whenever something bad happened it was most likely just due to accidents.
I don't exactly think that an accident happening like this would be so unbelievable and even if they believed it was on purpose they'd still see Hermes as a victim.
If they wanted him on the convocation they had probably done their research on him, I don't think one bad thing happening '' under his watch '' that they wouldn't even know the full circumstances of and who was at a fault would really change their consideration.
And similar stuff probably weren't that uncommon.
It's not like Hermes was infallible and that nothing could ever go wrong, Hythlodaeus was almost attacked by a shark monster and Hermes fell and broke his back on a tree lol all on the same day with not much time between.
And also Emet was there, for all they knew maybe Emet screwed up? Why couldn't he have stopped it?
Should his position be questioned too?
I just don't think this actually matters that much, for all we know there was an investigation but I don't think it's something that would've changed anything so it's not really worth spending time on.
Edit: I don't disagree it's shady but Venat would basically be the main suspect but ultimately there's no proof against her, she may as well just say that she had other business and left earlier or something ( or teleported out ) who knows.
It would've been nice to get some quick mention I guess but I don't think this is as big of a deal as it's being made out to be tbh.
Hermes would still be accepted and at worst Venat might be questioned, I doubt they just sentence people without evidence tho especially a former convocation member.
And I think it'd be pretty unbelievable to everyone involved that Venat would've done anything to hurt them or was up to no good.
It'd be easier to believe it was just a freak accident. -
03-16-2022, 03:09 AMTeraqWhat do you make of Emet asking us after Hermes flies off "Do you understand what's going on in Hermes's mind? Because I don't, at all."? I suppose that counts as things having already gone to hell, as he then proceeds to show zero patience toward Hermes throughout the dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinne
My take on Elpis Emet-Selch had always been that he's kind of dragging his feet through it all. Am I projecting my own feelings towards Endwalker and how little patience I have with Hermes's character on him? ...possibly. I have to say this is actually making me like Emet less, though to be fair he's never exactly been my favorite to begin with.
Especially since Hermes himself replies that in the state of mind he's in, he would be hard-pressed to take any sort of decision for humanity. Which I 100% agree with, for once!Quote:
Yes, Emet fussing about Hermes and offering him a seat on the highest governance in the world because he felt really bad for him is pretty dumb.
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03-16-2022, 03:17 AMBrinneYeah, I think it's clear that Emet's feelings on Hermes change after he crosses a line by running off with Meteion. Another thing about Emet is that he is willing to re-evaluate his stance as circumstances change - as Venat noted (and used to her advantage, lol), and as is the entire basis of everything he did in Shadowbringers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraq
I mean, hey, it's pretty consistent with Emet inviting us to the Tempest because he felt bad for us, when just leaving us alone as we were would have completely secured his victory. Or giving in and helping us with Y'shtola, who then went and helped kill him later, too. Bleeding heart gonna bleeding heart. He feels the need to act outwardly caustic because his kindness and the empathy he feels for others, in spite of himself, basically tends to leads him to self-sabotage - both in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. It doesn't help that he's terrible at communication and being honest with others. Emet-Selch is a mess! (Unsurprisingly, I love him as a character.)Quote:
Especially since Hermes himself replies that in the state of mind he's in, he would be hard-pressed to take any sort of decision for humanity. Which I 100% agree with, for once!
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03-16-2022, 03:21 AMIxonTo follow up on this, considering the variety of experiments happening, coupled with the fact that memory wipe/alteration wasn't unknown, on top of the disaster of a workplace Elpis was with their numerous mishaps(OSHA help) it is almost comically par for the course and not surprising that there was an accident that caused memory wipes. Even Hythlodaus brushes is off as if it were just another day in Elpis. On top of Emet's more pressing matters of convincing Hermes to join the Convocation, it seems like it was just simply brushed under the rug. This could be just me twisting theories to support facts, but after completing the Elpis side quests recently, it doesn't seem too farfetched.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
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03-16-2022, 03:27 AMTheodric
I think that Hermes was probably pretty good at hiding his issues up until Meteion entered the picture which just so happened to coincide with the point of time in which Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch came to visit Elpis. Which also, conveniently, coincided with Venat's presence and the arrival of the player character.
As for Emet-Selch, it was always clear to me that he cared more than he let on. I don't think, for example, that it was a coincidence that he sought to empower the very people who suffered the most amongst the Sundered as a consequence of the Sundering. Namely the Garleans. It makes me wonder what he would have done had his son not died in the way that he did. -
03-16-2022, 03:35 AMTeraqThis isn't about accusing Hermes of anything (yet), nor about where the convenient memory wipe machine comes from or who made it, it's about finding out what the hell happened to one of the most important dudes in the world because it involves something that is apparently 1. not known to Elpis outsiders like Emet and 2. skirting the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
I just... I don't know, does this convenient memory wipe machine not keep any log of its activities?? I suppose not, its legality looks to be dubious in the first place, might as well go all the way with dodgy design. Can't the memory wipe spell it casts be reverse engineered and undone like the Sharlayan Council does with its members? I suppose not, because...?? (handwaves)
Also, this doesn't really have to hinge on anyone's word either. We were able to conveniently use our Echo on that floating island to watch Hermes talk to Meteion on the waifu space probe launch day. Is this just a Sundered Azem thing? I suppose so, otherwise an Ancient with this ability could just have watched the post-Ktisis cutscene, and oops.
Honestly, the fact that whatever law it is about memory wiping even exists in the first place, the overall complex processes surrounding their creation magicks (evaluation, official approval and archiving, etc), and Themis making casual mention of mind control spells in Pandaemonium (and that he flat out asks Eric "you would rather capture Hesperos than take him out after what he did?" honestly my little guy I don't know what sort of things you've been witness to so far but eesh) make me believe that bad stuff has definitely happened in their history (or that, at least, they were absolutely not naive about potential disaster). After all, this is a world where anyone could potentially come up with a world-ending creation and simply not tell anyone or register it anywhere. Personally, the way I view Ancients is that every single of them could be a ticking time bomb, and yet they've apparently been living in peace for who knows how long, which is, frankly, a miracle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
I like this. I guess Hermes's greatest creation wasn't stratospheric birds after all, it was the Idiot Ball he materialized and passed everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
Since the 4.4 reveal, I've always seen the case of Garlemald from the Ascian PoV of "these people have long been persecuted for who they are, they're ripe for cultivating resentment and grooming them into a force to promote further chaos". Garleans just keep getting the short end of the stick tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
Emet-Selch: "And I would never do something as stupid as allowing you into my lair!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinne
Narrator: "He did."