Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

I know about the new primal accessories but where is this holy Lance from? Crystal tower?

Now that we have the weapon stats, this is my approximation of BiS, take a look and correct as needed and I'll edit the OP:

Weapon - Allagan Spear
Head - Allagan visor of Maiming (T4)
Chest - Wyrm's Mail
Gloves - Allagan Gauntlets of Maiming (T2)
Legs - Allagan trousers of Maiming (T1)
Belt - Hero's belt of Maiming
Boots - Allagan Sollerets of Maiming (T5)
Bracer - Hero's Braclet of Slaying
Neck - Hero's Necklace of Slaying
Earring - Allagan Earrings of Maiming (T1)
Ring 1 - Allagan ring of Striking (T1)
Ring 2 - Vortex Ring of Striking

That's +130 accuracy, sacrificing mostly skill speed and +5 crit to make up the accuracy lost to switching to the Allagan spear. The accessories are very interchangeable depending on whether you want crit or det, and it doesn't seem like the +21 crit loss on the helm justifies the accuracy gain when you can make it up by sacrificing skill speed on other items.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Now that we have the weapon stats, this is my approximation of BiS, take a look and correct as needed and I'll edit the OP:

Weapon - Allagan Spear
Head - Allagan visor of Maiming (T4)
Chest - Wyrm's Mail
Gloves - Allagan Gauntlets of Maiming (T2)
Legs - Allagan trousers of Maiming (T1)
Belt - Hero's belt of Maiming
Boots - Allagan Sollerets of Maiming (T5)
Bracer - Hero's Braclet of Slaying
Neck - Hero's Necklace of Slaying
Earring - Allagan Earrings of Maiming (T1)
Ring 1 - Allagan ring of Striking (T4)
Ring 2 - Vortex Ring of Striking

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allagan ring of striking drops in t1 and allagan ring of maiming drops in t4, which one are you referring to there?

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

allagan ring of striking drops in t1 and allagan ring of maiming drops in t4, which one are you referring to there?

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typoooooooooo

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Originally Posted by snowybell

I know about the new primal accessories but where is this holy Lance from? Crystal tower?

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I believe that's the weapon you get for clearing all three Extreme Mode Primals. Relic +1 is better. :|

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

I believe that's the weapon you get for clearing all three Extreme Mode Primals. Relic +1 is better. :|

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Hey thanks. i know! But still ... it's kain's ultimate weapon! must have for collection :D

Been creeping here forever, figured I'd ask some questions after seeing the gear.

Curious about pre-turn 5 gear as my static is still working on downing twin. Are the current pre-turn 5 BiS changed now using Relic +1 and is a BiS item set using Holy Lance remotely comparable to relic+1 gear set?

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Originally Posted by Spyre1

Been creeping here forever, figured I'd ask some questions after seeing the gear.

Curious about pre-turn 5 gear as my static is still working on downing twin. Are the current pre-turn 5 BiS changed now using Relic +1 and is a BiS item set using Holy Lance remotely comparable to relic+1 gear set?

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That is a good point. I suppose it would depend on how highly you value crit vs. skill speed. By pure stat weight alone the Holy Lance is better, but you have to make up the 11 accuracy loss, of which there are no really good pieces with which to do so. Swapping out the earring for +16 or a neck/ring for +5/+5 loses the weight you gained from switching weapons, so the Gae Bolg+1 works out better overall thanks to its high accuracy, but not by very much.

You'd have to make up 11 accuracy somewhere. And you'd be missing out on 26 CRIT.

I'll be gettign the weapon either way. Extreme Modes looks super fun.

tremor earrings will be better than the striking earring for pre-5

using this rotation with close to if not bis gear i only see u pulling maybe 200-250 dps pre patch.. max... i'v seen 275-300 out of dragoons pre patch seems 300 should be common post patch with the correct rotation altho the rotation in this thread seems err different fromw hat i have seen

Isn't the accuracy required for Turn 4 in the 480s? I heard this was the case and replaced my hero's ring with the Allagan for the accuracy. So is it 470+ or 480+?

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Originally Posted by Gukster

Isn't the accuracy required for Turn 4 in the 480s? I heard this was the case and replaced my hero's ring with the Allagan for the accuracy. So is it 470+ or 480+?

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Accuracy cap for physical DPS is around ~472 or so. Turn 5 is slightly higher.

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Originally Posted by Ayasee

Accuracy cap for physical DPS is around ~472 or so. Turn 5 is slightly higher.

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483, correct?

ok now we need a new BiS list, did you guys check the new items on ffxivdb?

If anyone is interested in my calculations for determining that Skill Speed has the potential to be a better #3 stat than DET and possibly Crit, here is the hard data with summation.

http://www.amongthespheres.com/uploa..._Stat_Calc.xls

EDIT: Bah, check two pages back.

Don't believe anything about the BiS will change post patch, considering the logic Det>Crit>SS.

http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/4191/DRG---Allagan-Spear-BiS

DB hasn't been updated yet but with the changes to the Allagan Earrings of Maiming and the Allagan Spear the stats will be:

ACC: 471, DET:148, CRIT: 87, SS: 27

With HQ Buttons that puts us at: DET: 164, CRIT: 97, SS:27

EDIT: I math'ed a bit more as I was comparing some of the new accessories and found that if anyone prefers more crit they may substitute the Allagan Ring of Striking and Hero's Necklace of Slaying with the Vortex Ring of Striking and Allagan Choker of Maiming, as there is no difference in total objective stats.

With the weights:

Det: 0.22
Crit: 0.16

ARS + HNS = 27 Acc, 16 Crit, 8 Det = 4.32 total objective.
VRS + ACM = 27 Acc, 27 Crit = 4.32 total objective.

Though I prefer Determination still.

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Originally Posted by Erik_the_Dragoon

If anyone is interested in my calculations for determining that Skill Speed has the potential to be a better #3 stat than DET and possibly Crit, here is the hard data with summation.

http://www.amongthespheres.com/uploa..._Stat_Calc.xls

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Two points:
-The value of Crit rating is lower than shown because Life Surge and Internal Release favour other stats (sans SS for Life Surge) for the globals in which they are used.
-The value of Skill speed is lower than shown because it does not affect our off-global jumps/leg sweeps at all (while DET and Crit do) which will account for about 16 potency/second in update 2.1. Also, unless the animation times of jumps have been reduced to an amount where they won't delay the execution of the subsequent on-global attack the value of Skill speed is also even more slighly less (as you gain no benefit from the stat for those globals). Life Surge also does not benefit at all from Skill Speed.

Therefore, it would be more accurate to observe the benefit of stats based on a simulation of actions in a "perfect rotation".

That being said, I do tend to think SS is vastly underrated and that its main complaint (TP starving) is highly-exaggerated. Its usage becomes largely pointless if we consider a static rotation based on our buff and DoT timers where the extra attack speed doesn't get put to much use.

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Originally Posted by Erik_the_Dragoon

If anyone is interested in my calculations for determining that Skill Speed has the potential to be a better #3 stat than DET and possibly Crit, here is the hard data with summation.

http://www.amongthespheres.com/uploa..._Stat_Calc.xls

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Your calculations do seem correct, if the person is simply spamming the full thrust combo and not using any rotation including DoT's, however if you are currently using easymodx's highest pps rotation then increasing skill speed just has negative effects of DoT clipping as the buff/DoT timers are very finite in that rotation, there may be thresholds of SS increase which would allow the adding of fracture, around about +200 skill speed would allow the use of fracture every 30s with out messing with the buff/DoT timers.

If the translated patch notes were correct about buffed DoT's being able to be overwritten then skill speed could become viable but you would also have to take into account the last tick of chaos thrust being wasted which would be -30 potency every 30 seconds.

Unless anyone can prove at higher PPS rotation with increased skill speed than I personally still believe det/crit > skill speed

Said this on war thread, and i will sai it her also:

Good Luck in 2.1, hope its ur time shine :)

Been seeing some chatter about dropping Fracture from the rotation improving DPS. I previously thought the only reason to drop Fracture was to keep the Heavy Thrust buff from falling before you can get Full Thrust out. If you aren't having problems with this, is there still a reason to drop Fracture?

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Originally Posted by AvonRekaes

Been seeing some chatter about dropping Fracture from the rotation improving DPS. I previously thought the only reason to drop Fracture was to keep the Heavy Thrust buff from falling before you can get Full Thrust out. If you aren't having problems with this, is there still a reason to drop Fracture?

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Everything depends on context of the fight, this is discussed pretty thoroughly throughout the thread and the OP. On a dummy using a Fracture-less rotation will parse slightly higher.

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Originally Posted by Swarna

The value of Skill speed is lower than shown because it does not affect our off-global jumps/leg sweeps at all (while DET and Crit do) which will account for about 16 potency/second in update 2.1.

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Originally Posted by pompey_dan

If the translated patch notes were correct about buffed DoT's being able to be overwritten then skill speed could become viable but you would also have to take into account the last tick of chaos thrust being wasted which would be -30 potency every 30 seconds.

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Swarna and Pompey_Dan, thank you for your thoughtful and informative responses which have been plenty convincing.

If you can stack DoT in 2.1 that would be nice!

With the new gear the BiS gear does change, although this change is really minimal.

Assuming weights are as follows:
Statistic Weight
Weapon Damage 7.540
Strength 1.000
Determination 0.220
Critical Hit Rating 0.160
Skill Speed 0.146

The new BiS gives the following total weight when all attributes are added from armor alone, 618.176.
The old BiS gear gave a total weight of the following: 618.092.

This gives us a 0.01359% increase, really really negligible but here is the list anyway.

Weapon: Relic+1
Head: Allagan
Body: Myth
Hands: Allagan
Legs: Allagan
Feet: Allagan
Waist: Myth
Necklace: Allagan Striking
Earring: Tremor
Bracelet: Allagan Maiming
Ring: Allagan Striking
Ring2: Vortex

This was calculated with an accuracy requirement of 470. I can calculate at any number if anybody wishes, just let me know. With this setup the differences from old BiS is as follows:
-gain 8 points of determination
-lose 5 points of critical hit
-lose 6 points of skill speed

Relic+1 is still best? Huh.

I assume the accuracy loss was just really nasty then?

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

...With the new gear the BiS gear does change, although this change is really minimal...

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Did you forget the Allagan Polearm buff?

Where the F is EMX?

I didn't put that holy lance into my database, didn't think it would affect it, but i can recalculate with it included, will do it tomorrow though. still at work got out of a conference call where i got grilled to no end ha...oh man

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

The new BiS gives the following total weight when all attributes are added from armor alone, 618.176.
The old BiS gear gave a total weight of the following: 618.092.

This gives us a 0.01359% increase, really really negligible but here is the list anyway.

Weapon: Relic+1
Head: Allagan
Body: Myth
Hands: Allagan
Legs: Allagan
Feet: Allagan
Waist: Myth
Necklace: Allagan Striking
Earring: Tremor
Bracelet: Allagan Maiming
Ring: Allagan Striking
Ring2: Vortex

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Using Ayvar's list I could be wrong but i'm getting 628.862

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

I didn't put that holy lance into my database, didn't think it would affect it, but i can recalculate with it included, will do it tomorrow though. still at work got out of a conference call where i got grilled to no end ha...oh man

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They mean the new i95 Allagan Spear.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps0a2f50c2.png

This is also assuming our stat weights are the same. Our stat weights should be different with the changes, although i doubt itll affect our BiS much (since we dont even have much options to begin with), but that small number change may be the difference between 1 slot being optimized.

This is BiS. Too lazy to name everything:
http://www.ariyala.com/ffxiv/gear.ht...123.4172697587

Ran both this set vs the set AugustusSB stated in Valkys Damage Returns calculator. Guess who comes on top? You forget how much that extra 1 WD makes an impact.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

This is BiS. Too lazy to name everything:
http://www.ariyala.com/ffxiv/gear.ht...123.4172697587

Ran both this set vs the set AugustusSB stated in Valkys Damage Returns calculator. Guess who comes on top? You forget how much that extra 1 WD makes an impact.

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Is the VIT stat correct in that? I ask because when I bring up Highlander, it says that my VIT should be 404...but the difference in VIT between Zenith and Allagan is 4 points, not 14 (my VIT is 390 right now, everything on the left is i90, so the only thing that improves VIT for me is the Spear...which again is only 4 points different)

If you're going for the bis gearset with allagan spear but is still currently using the relic+1, then the onion boots is better than the myth boots if we discount accuracy, which we will have an abundance of with the relic+1.

It'll save you some myth until you down t5 and rng your items.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

If you're going for the bis gearset with allagan spear but is still currently using the relic+1, then the onion boots is better than the myth boots if we discount accuracy, which we will have an abundance of with the relic+1.

It'll save you some myth until you down t5 and rng your items.

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You overvalue the crit/det combo that CT boots have over myth's higher ilvl (thus more stats and has 3 points of strength). Myth should not be an issue if you are seriously raiding, and in 2.1 the cap rose to 450.

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Originally Posted by Ixsiehn

You overvalue the crit/det combo that CT boots have over myth's higher ilvl (thus more stats and has 3 points of strength). Myth should not be an issue if you are seriously raiding, and in 2.1 the cap rose to 450.

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18str 21 skill speed= 21.066
15str 19crit 9 det= 20.02

according to questionable weight provided in the thread

I misread the str difference as 2 instead of 3 but still it's close enough that I'm not sure spending the myth is worth it since you'll be replacing it with allagan, and myth could be used gearing alts or something.

You're essentially trading 9 det for 21 skill speed, while 21 skill speed is more dps than 9 det, I'm not sure if it's 495 myth worth.

To be fair, you also get 3 vitality tho.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

18str 21 skill speed= 21.066
15str 19crit 9 det= 20.02

according to questionable weight provided in the thread

I misread the str difference as 2 instead of 3 but still it's close enough that I'm not sure spending the myth is worth it since you'll be replacing it with allagan, and myth could be used gearing alts or something.

You're essentially trading 9 det for 21 skill speed, while 21 skill speed is more dps than 9 det, I'm not sure if it's 495 myth worth.

To be fair, you also get 3 vitality tho.

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this also highly depends on if you are accuracy capped.

Not to mention, the values are weighted by strength, we arent sure what strength weights as DPS too, the difference might be alot larger than you think =p

Though, im more of a min-maxer, and i have experienced my fair share of wiping at 0.1% back in WoW, so i typically tend to prefer min-maxing wherever possible.

So I was somehow able to get on before maint was over for about 5min before I got 9k.

looks like Jump was boosted to 250 potency.

So I was bored during the maintenance and made an app to calculate BiS given weights, a minimum of accuracy and all the gear you feel like.

I put 472 accuracy, all ilvl90+ gear from Dragoon and the weights given by the OP, this is the best score found.

Code:

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Score: 628.348
Weapon: Allagan Spear
Gloves: Wyrm's Gauntlets
Helmet: Wyrm's Armet
Chest: Wyrm's Mail
Waist: Allagan Tassets Of Maiming
Pants: Allagan Trousers Of Maiming
Feet: Allagan Sollerets Of Maiming
Neck: Hero's Necklace Of Slaying
Earrings: Allagan Earrings Of Maiming
Wrists: Inferno Bangle Of Striking
Ring1: Vortex Ring Of Striking
Ring2: Allagan Ring Of Maiming

Weapon Damage: 47
Strength: 224
Vitality: 180
Critical: 82
Accuracy: 131
Skill Speed: 58
Determination: 129

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What you guys think about it? Also do you need a certain amount of SS to make a difference or any point counts? at the moment the app just sums any point so I would like to know, maybe I missed it somewhere.