[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

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Originally Posted by Delily

Why? In the context of this game, it takes a lot of energy and willpower to summon a primal, and when you do, there's little chance you can control them. There would have to be a rather convulted reason we could summon and control a full primal, and SE tends to be pretty consistent with the lore.

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No SE doesn't they make lore after they come up with a design instead of before.

Weren't we supposed to get new summons?

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Originally Posted by Akiza

No SE doesn't they make lore after they come up with a design instead of before.

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Care to provide some examples to dissuade that this assertion come from anywhere other than out if thin air?

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Originally Posted by dday3six

Care to provide some examples to dissuade that this assertion come from anywhere other than out if thin air?

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A wise man once said, "An assertion without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.".

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Originally Posted by Akiza

No SE doesn't they make lore after they come up with a design instead of before.

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And that's a bad thing?
Function should always come before aesthetics when it comes to useable products.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

No SE doesn't they make lore after they come up with a design instead of before.

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Apparently you don't know that much about how MMOs are designed and built do you?

im on the fence about it, neither yes or no, just inbetween, my main classes are tank and dps atm.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Apparently you don't know that much about how MMOs are designed and built do you?

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SE comes up with a game design then makes the lore afterwards like other MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

SE comes up with a game design then makes the lore afterwards like other MMO's.

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No, they don't.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

SE comes up with a game design then makes the lore afterwards like other MMO's.

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No, lore and design go hand in hand. Lore is the what, design is the how. They have to be done together, or you don't get a consistent view.

Actually Akiza is right for once. During the Lore Panel @ Fan Fest, Koji-Fox said the devs design first then the lore team comes in and weaves it all together. So having that in regards to SMN, the battle team purposely developed the pet size and design, then the lore team stepped in afterwards creating the reason. I have no don't they tried several options internally on pet design before settling on Egi.

They can give the Summoner the ability to Summon the Primals by having them get possessed by the Primal Soul similar how Lady Iceheart Summoned Shiva

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Originally Posted by Akiza

They can give the Summoner the ability to Summon the Primals by having them get possessed by the Primal Soul similar how Lady Iceheart Summoned Shiva

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But then the player would be the primal and then how would a Summoner be able to fight said primal they've been possessed by?

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Originally Posted by Akiza

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Are you being paid for the amount of totally ridiculous posts you can make in a day ?

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Originally Posted by Akiza

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Spoiler much? Way to ruin part of the story for newer players.

Edit: Thanks for the heads up Dwill.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

Spoiler much? Way to ruin part of the story for newer players.

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Thanks for the reminder, I snipped the quote. You should too just in case certain people skimmed over his/her posts.

I think what a lot of people dislike about SMN atm is that its implied to be a pet Class but in reality only a small proportion of its abilities and skills are based of the pet. What a lot of summoners wanted was a true pet class where its more pet focused not dot focused. Summoner is fine as it is yes but its not a "Summoner" its a Warlock or a witch or whatever with all those curses and dots and a familiar but not a summoner as its not focused on its summons.
Also about all those snarky Troll comments if anything you are the ones who been trolling Akiza not the other way around. Should be ashamed all those snarky condensending remarks . Really grow up guys. She isnt happy with the class so are a lot of other people suck it up and stop picking on people who happen to disagree. If it wasnt an issue we wouldnt have threads about it constantly since release.

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Originally Posted by Skaramush

I think what a lot of people dislike about SMN atm is that its implied to be a pet Class but in reality only a small proportion of its abilities and skills are based of the pet. What a lot of summoners wanted was a true pet class where its more pet focused not dot focused. Summoner is fine as it is yes but its not a "Summoner" its a Warlock or a witch or whatever with all those curses and dots and a familiar but not a summoner as its not focused on its summons.
Also about all those snarky Troll comments if anything you are the ones who been trolling Akiza not the other way around. Should be ashamed all those snarky condensending remarks . Really grow up guys. She isnt happy with the class so are a lot of other people suck it up and stop picking on people who happen to disagree.

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You must be new here.

To almost every Akiza post, this is the question posed;

http://i.imgur.com/SLNaUzr.jpg

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Originally Posted by Skaramush

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Any snarkiness I have is a direct result of not wanting the game I spent most of my gaming time with for more than a year now to be unbalanced. To put it mildly, Akiza wants Summoner to be Superman in a game of rock, paper, scissors. I don't to have to be forced to play Summoner as a dps because it's so brokenly overpowered that running anything else is gimping the run.

It's funny that you mention growing up, because child dream, and often outside of the bounds of reality. While that trait is admirable, growing up is about learning how what you do effects others, and grounding yourself in reality.

Can we leave our planet, and travel the stars. Resoundingly "Yes!", We can. However we cannot get there on a starship made of cardboard.

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Originally Posted by Skaramush

Also about all those snarky Troll comments if anything you are the ones who been trolling Akiza not the other way around. Should be ashamed all those snarky condensending remarks . Really grow up guys. She isnt happy with the class so are a lot of other people suck it up and stop picking on people who happen to disagree. If it wasnt an issue we wouldnt have threads about it constantly since release.

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The problem isn't someone being unhappy with a class. It's being unhappy with a class and continually bringing up the same idea and complaints daily for over a year. We get it already, she/he doesn't like how summoner is but we don't need a constant reminder. I have no issue with people giving positive feedback, heck I do it myself. But I also know to post an idea then move

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Originally Posted by Skaramush

I think what a lot of people dislike about SMN atm is that its implied to be a pet Class but in reality only a small proportion of its abilities and skills are based of the pet. What a lot of summoners wanted was a true pet class where its more pet focused not dot focused. Summoner is fine as it is yes but its not a "Summoner" its a Warlock or a witch or whatever with all those curses and dots and a familiar but not a summoner as its not focused on its summons.

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This is a variation on a logical fallacy known as "No True Scotsman". Within the realm of Final Fantasy, Square Enix is the authority on what is and what isn't. If a class is referred to as a summoner, it's a summoner, end of story. People have unrealistic expectations that a given class will operate the same across all games, which has never been the case. However, it seems to be a lot of people misread this game as FFXI-2 and not FFXIV.

If you don't think the class is "pet-focused" then go to coil without garuda out.

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Also about all those snarky Troll comments if anything you are the ones who been trolling Akiza not the other way around. Should be ashamed all those snarky condensending remarks . Really grow up guys. She isnt hapy with the class so are a lot of other people suck it up and stop picking on people who happen to disagree. If it wasnt an issue we wouldnt have threads about it constantly since release.

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You're cute, sticking up for her. She's advocating for summoners to be able to summon EX primals and have AoE better than BLM. Not only is that a huge balance issue, that's never been the design of the summoner class, ever.

Summons are know for doing AoE spike damage in all Final Fantasy Incarnations. If Black Mage is the King of AoE The Summoner should be The God of AoE not a Red Mage dressed up like a Summoner. The Summoner should use Dark Elemental Abilities for sustained damage while the Pets are The Gods of AoE Spike Damage. The Summoner should get the ability to summon the Primal by becoming possessed by the Egi and transforming into the Primal similar to how Lady Iceheart summoned Shiva. The Summoner should get an ability to absorb the Egi and rain down death and destruction.

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Originally Posted by Delily

This is a variation on a logical fallacy known as "No True Scotsman". Within the realm of Final Fantasy, Square Enix is the authority on what is and what isn't. If a class is referred to as a summoner, it's a summoner, end of story. People have unrealistic expectations that a given class will operate the same across all games, which has never been the case. However, it seems to be a lot of people misread this game as FFXI-2 and not FFXIV.

If you don't think the class is "pet-focused" then go to coil without garuda out.



You're cute, sticking up for her. She's advocating for summoners to be able to summon EX primals and have AoE better than BLM. Not only is that a huge balance issue, that's never been the design of the summoner class, ever.

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Balance isn't a great excuse for having an uninspired design for the Summoner that lacks creativity.

Having a Pet and Pet focused are two different things. Most of the Summoners ability centers around keeping DoTs up and enhancing DotS abilities with Fester, Bane and Shadow Flare with the occasional Pet buff or sustain.
No matter what SE says we aren't Summoner's we are DoT bots dressed up as Summoners who happen to have a Pet.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

...No matter what SE says we aren't Summoner's we are DoT bots dressed up as Summoners who happen to have a Pet.

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ORLY? So the group of people who invented the job and named it Summoner, they are wrong. On top of this, to give it the finishing touch, you are the one who's right. You've turned this thread into a perpetual April Fools Day.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summons are know for doing AoE spike damage in all Final Fantasy Incarnations.

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Sure, they can do AoE spike damage. But that's in the turn based console games where the pets are little more than fancy casting animations. Most of the times, all characters had access to the skill, and the MP/dmg ratio was pretty much such that you either carried around max ethers, or you just used black magic. There's a great list detailing the various roles of the summoners in all games. They were never the "godlike beings of destruction" you seem to think they are.

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If Black Mage is the King of AoE The Summoner should be The God of AoE not a Red Mage dressed up like a Summoner.

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Balance, do you not understand that concept? If this was the case, there would be no reason to bring a BLM into the raid, ever. Even if the MP cost was high, you'd just have bards perma-play Mage's Ballad. Summoner are about sustained damaged, black mages are about burst. Also, not sure where you get this idea red mages are about DoTs. Even in FFXI, they were a debuff class. Outside of that, they've generally been a "jack of all trades, master of none" role.

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Having a Pet and Pet focused are two different things.

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Hai there, I played a summoner in FFXI and a necromancer in DAoC. I know what you're referring to. I just happen to disagree.

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Most of the Summoners ability centers around keeping DoTs up and enhancing DotS abilities with Fester, Bane and Shadow Flare with the occasional Pet buff or sustain.
No matter what SE says we aren't Summoner's we are DoT bots dressed up as Summoners who happen to have a Pet.

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No, sorry, Square calls the shots. We're summoners. Have you not paid attention to other classes like Scholars, DRKS, etc? They have changed from game to game.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summons are know for doing AoE spike damage in all Final Fantasy Incarnations.

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Oh really? Then why does black magic always seem to do a better job? Same damage, faster, costs less MP and doesn't waste 30 seconds or a minute of my time with awesomely blinding visuals. Don't even dare bring up blatantly overpowered summons like Knights of the Round or Eden. They're they only exceptions out of many that actually do good damage.

And show some respect to the community that hasn't completed the latest story content. Spoiler tag your garbage posts.

Devs can you please lock this post and let it die?
Akiza is going to just keep babbling over and over again about the same things and not listen to anyone else and bring it back up once a week.

Scholar kept it's flavor because it's still a debuffer and support by using DoTS and restorative buffs.
Dark Knight still keeping it's flavor because it has high hp and physical stacks and Dark Elemental abilities
Ninja high speed low defense and hp attacks revolve around debilitating enemies by crippling them an weakening them with status effects also they have Ninjutsu and Mantras.
Summoner DoT focused revolves around enhancing DoT damage can summon a pet as extra damage

Pet should have AoE Spike Damage and the Summoner should revolve around the Pet and have summoning magic.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Scholar kept it's flavor because it's still a debuffer and support by using DoTS and restorative buffs.

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At best, the most you can say about scholar in all games is that it is a support role.

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Dark Knight still keeping it's flavor because it has high hp and physical stacks and Dark Elemental abilities

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It won't keep it's flavor unless it has some form of Soul Eater or Darkness - the ability to inflict damage at the expense of HP.

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Ninja high speed low defense and hp attacks revolve around debilitating enemies by crippling them an weakening them with status effects also they have Ninjutsu and Mantras.

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Have you played FF6? Do ninjas in this game have the ability to Throw items? Ninjutsu typicall does more then just debuff.

Summoner have kept their flavor since they summon forth creatures to fight by their side.

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Pet should have AoE Spike Damage and the Summoner should revolve around the Pet and have summoning magic.

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It's amazing how single minded you are with regards to the summoner. You seem to have merged all the various versions of the summoner together, convinced yourself that is the "One True Summoner" (C)(TM), and are now upset the designers are not bending to your demands to make you some sort of godlike being in the game.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

...Pet should have AoE Spike Damage and the Summoner should revolve around the Pet and have summoning magic.

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If Summoner revolved around the pet, (i.e. it did most of the dps) that would open up issues with them having massive dps loss, if the pet died. I believe at one time or another Yoshi P even said as much. That is the reason why Summoner has the dot focus. Dots let them manage the pet, or rez fallen commrades with losing too much dps.

I'd like to chime in and say I love the Summoner, it's just so awesome, the only thing that needs to be done to it is to make sure all the summons have a use somewhere, even if (at this time) say Ifrit was good for PvP, Titan for solo, and Garuda for, well pretty much everything like she already is.

This thread needs to be closed, every week I see it get bumped with some insane and illogical thing that Akiza says, it's pretty well dead, the pathetic 60 vote OP hasn't been updated in a year, I'm pretty sure Akiza is just a troll, I mean for suggestions like that, she has to be.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

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Scholar
You're going to complain about SMNs not being like Black Mages and focusing on AoE damage but not complain about how Scholars don't have access to both White and Black magic? Through out FF Scholars have been like Red Mages, minus the physical aspects, using both Black and White magic. If we're going by your logic, Scholar should have Spike Damage and Healing spells and NOT be a pet class.

Dark Knight
We know nothing about Dark Knight to know its "flavor". There's a vocal minority forming that's essentially pulling a you and complaining that it isn't fighting the FF-mythos enough because it's a tank and not a DPS.

Ninja
Just last week you were complaining that Ninja was going to be a DoT class and no one was going to play as SMN because blah blah blah lore blah blah blah pets blah blah blah.

Summoner
Akiza, if you hate the job so much and then just stop playing as it. You literally have two combat jobs at 50 and main Summoner, yet you keep bitching and moaning about it not being crazy enough for you. If you want to control your pets more, play Scholar, if you want AoE damage, play Black Mage. Or just don't play at all because SE is clearly not going to bend over for you.

Thread lock please

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Originally Posted by dday3six

If Summoner revolved around the pet, (i.e. it did most of the dps) that would open up issues with them having massive dps loss, if the pet died. I believe at one time or another Yoshi P even said as much. That is the reason why Summoner has the dot focus. Dots let them manage the pet, or rez fallen commrades with losing too much dps.

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The reason SE doesn't want to make the Summoner revolve around the Pet is because they want to keep the class simple and generic no other reason.

Why is there a 1000 character limit, this truly bothers me. I cannot even properly express my thoughts because of how limiting these posts are.
However i agree that summoner should change, its very uninspiring and boring job to play as so far. The only excuses i see is that people do not like change,people ASSUME that there is no way to balance primals for their own convenience and that they are for some reason afraid of any aspect of FFXI becoming a part of this game. As if merely mentioning the concept of FFXI-2 might in some way be a bad thing and required no explanation whatsoever.Also ...Why lock this thread? Does anyone force you to click on it? Is it your job to manage the forums? Why are you clicking on a summoner thread then getting mad when people still want to discuss the subject, who cares if you find their ideas stupid or repetitive, people still clearly think the subject isn't closed yet.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Why is there a 1000 character limit, this truly bothers me. I cannot even properly express my thoughts because of how limiting these posts are.
However i agree that summoner should change, its very uninspiring and boring job to play as so far. The only excuses i see is that people do not like change,people ASSUME that there is no way to balance primals for their own convenience and that they are for some reason afraid of any aspect of FFXI becoming a part of this game. As if merely mentioning the concept of FFXI-2 might in some way be a bad thing and required no explanation whatsoever.Also ...Why lock this thread? Does anyone force you to click on it? Is it your job to manage the forums? Why are you clicking on a summoner thread then getting mad when people still want to discuss the subject, who cares if you find their ideas stupid or repetitive, people still clearly think the subject isn't closed yet.

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editing post bypass character limit ;3

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The reason SE doesn't want to make the Summoner revolve around the Pet is because they want to keep the class simple and generic no other reason.

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They want all the classes/jobs to be simple and easy for people to pick up so that the whole spectrum of casual through hardcore players can play them.
Being "generic" has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

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We're not made at people talking about Summoner, we're made that Akiza terrorizes all threads that are about Summoner, doesn't listen to any reason we give her for why her ideas just couldn't work, and the fact she constantly missuses, twists, and changes lore and/or numbers. She's like one of those preachers you see at street corners who yell about how the Apocalypse is going to happen that everyone that doesn't follow them is a slut.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

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You have an idea to make summoner more inspiring and exciting? Great! I'd love to hear it. Frankly, the last 30 pages of this topic as been Akiza and a few other ephemeral voices who bring up the same points that the developers have explained will not happen. so if you have something more to contribute than:
I want bigger and more detailed Egis (developers do not want to have the egis be graphically intensive), and then saying, "who cares, I WANT IT!" not a good argument
I want summoner to be better than all other classes, screw game balance
I want summoner to be like ffXI (or any other final fantasy for that matter) - now referring to abilities that can fit into the game that have some history in final fantasy is plenty fine, but summoner in this game is different from summoner in other games
I want the pet to be the only part of the summoner to do damage, or at least the main damage source (developers have said they don't want this either)

Then we can gladly talk about summoners and changes to the class. That's not what's happening here

in referencing ignoring dumb opinions, why do you think there is a debate on climate change? the science has been settled for about 20 years. people who say otherwise don't know what they are talking about and oftentimes go unchallenged. That's analogous to this. I don't want there to be a 'debate' on summoner egi size, why summoners can't be given all the best abilities, and be made solely to rely on their pet for damage because there is none. Come up with a well reasoned argument why the developers should change their stance and I will happily engage, but the response has been (paraphrased) SCREW BALANCE

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Why is there a 1000 character limit, this truly bothers me. I cannot even properly express my thoughts because of how limiting these posts are.
However i agree that summoner should change, its very uninspiring and boring job to play as so far. The only excuses i see is that people do not like change,people ASSUME that there is no way to balance primals for their own convenience and that they are for some reason afraid of any aspect of FFXI becoming a part of this game. As if merely mentioning the concept of FFXI-2 might in some way be a bad thing and required no explanation whatsoever.Also ...Why lock this thread? Does anyone force you to click on it? Is it your job to manage the forums? Why are you clicking on a summoner thread then getting mad when people still want to discuss the subject, who cares if you find their ideas stupid or repetitive, people still clearly think the subject isn't closed yet.

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They're hardly excuses, for the most part, we're countering Akiza's posts with response straight from the mouth of the designers. There is a reason the class is DoT based, there is a reason the class uses egis. Akiza, on the other hand, is insisting the designers are Wrong(tm) and that she is Right(tm). The problem with that is that Square is the authority, not Akiza, so presenting her ideas as if she's Right(tm) is inane. There's also the fact that she has repeatedly demonstrated her inability to understand the concept of balance. I'm sure in FFV and FFT, she loads up her classes as SMN/BLM and goes to town decimating everything, but that model doesn't work in an MMORPG setting.

The other point why FFXI-2 is bad is simple: FFXI is still in service. If you want to play that type of summoner, you can. This is a different game, different design, and aimed at a different playerbase. If you understand that, you can understand why the developers made the decisions they did. You may not agree with those decisions, but that's a purely subjective matter. No one is forcing you to play.

Suggesting Square completely revamp the class simply because you don't like it is inane. That would require a large amount of work, and I'd rather have the devs work on new content.