If you don't like being target for violating TOS...how about don't violate the TOS?

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Originally Posted by Myrany

No you are not JK. You have been on a "toxic casual" rant for pages.

Some streamer was dumb enough to stream with his mods showing. Someone reported and he got busted for it. Predictable. The rule for years has been turn a blind eye until its brought to attention with prove they can verify. Not surprising the streamer paid the price.

Not all casuals are toxic. Not all casuals that want nothing to do with parsers are "bad players." I look up my rotations. I wear the best gear I can get at the time (usually crafted because I am often 10 levels above where I am in the MSQ so cant get appropriate tomestone gear). I give 100% effort in any group content I do.

I simply refuse to have anything to do with parsers. I do not want to see one or have anyone else see my parses. I used a parser for years in another game. It absolutely ruined the game for me. I stressed so much if I made the smallest mistake that led me too be even a tiny bit below my optimal. I am done with min/maxing to that level.

I do MSQ group content. I want to do every raid at the minimal level and no more. I stay in my lane. So if they were to put a parser in I want to not see it and remove myself from being parsed as well. As I do not want to be pushed (and it would for me even if it is someone pointing out my parse on his meter) back into the min/max mentality that destroys MY fun.

Sorry I do not think that is toxic of me hence NOT a toxic casual

Edit: I know full well by this point someone has parsed me. They had the good sense to keep it to themselves so they didn't get busted. That leaves me the illusion of not being parsed. If a parser is in game then the motivation to keep it to themselves is gone and they will say something (even if it is not in a harassing way) and that would destroy things for me.

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Hence the "toxic" in front of the word "casual".

You want to play in the gold saucer, do MSQ, glamour, and never care how well you're doing in a dungeon? Good for you. You're a casual.

You want to shriek about eeeeeeevil parsers used by mustache-twirling elitists who might be....reading your already publicly available numbers while *gasp* largely ignoring them and not saying anything about them? Or barge into a Twitch stream run by someone you've never met, who isn't on your server, who's neither seen nor spoken to you and likely never will, doing content you have zero interest in and yelling "YOSHI, YOSHI! He has a PARSER! BAN HIM!" like an obnoxious church lady? That's a toxic casual.

There's a difference.

If you get offended by the term "toxic casual" enough to make a forum rant about how not all casuals are toxic, then you are quite likely, a toxic casual.

#NotAllCasuals

Another issue is the game devs do foster this toxic causal mindset with their design choices. I understand that normal content should be able to be completed by a majority of players, but said content should not be able to be cleared with multiple players under performing. The reality is in FFXIV the standard of play that is view acceptable is clearing the fight. You could be dead on the floor the entire fight and the game will treat and weigh your into the same as other and thus count it is as a success.

Parsing at the core goes against this design choice. Induvial accountably when it comes to level of play is something SE has shown they do not want to foster in general community. Parsing will never been approved just due to this mindset alone. Putting aside the toxic issues and everything else.

When people use those third-party add-ons and then somehow get banned, they shouldn't be surprised because they ultimately reaped what they sowed and now have to deal with the consequences.

At the end of the day, it's not a question of if a sudden ban happens when terms of service is broken, but when.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Another issue is the game devs do foster this toxic causal mindset with their design choices. I understand that normal content should be able to be completed by a majority of players, but said content should not be able to be cleared with multiple players under performing. The reality is in FFXIV the standard of play that is view acceptable is clearing the fight. You could be dead on the floor the entire fight and the game will treat and weigh your into the same as other and thus count it is as a success.

Parsing at the core goes against this design choice. Induvial accountably when it comes to level of play is something SE has shown they do not want to foster in general community. Parsing will never been approved just due to this mindset alone. Putting aside the toxic issues and everything else.

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Yep. Exactly. So instead, we have the process that's in vogue on the JP servers: silently disband, blacklist, be as passive-aggressive as you can because passive-aggression is seen as a virtue in FFXIV. Offering to assist someone? DON'T YOU DARE, HOW DID YOU KNOW THEY WERE UNDERPERFORMING, BAD!!1! Much better to snot something about the *party* being underperformers, and leave in a flounce. That's the TOS-respecting way to do it.

The former helpful approach? That happens in statics all the time. When you aren't forced to walk on eggshells around people because of a stifling TOS, you can actually learn and improve things. And who does the TOS force people to walk on eggshells around? Well, it prescribes punishment for calling out anyone for underperforming. Starts with a "T" and ends with an "oxic casuals".

This recent bit of drama is just something else. Before, You Don't Pay My Sub was the law of the land. Okay, you refuse to improve or seek out any information about improving and I can't make you, random stranger. Weird flex, but that's acceptably defined boundaries. Now it's "tools for improvement should be reported wherever they're seen, and the punishment doled out is justice served". Ah, you guys don't just not want knowledge, you want to destroy it in other people. You're zealous fanatics now. Got it. *sigh* okay, I'm done with these neurotics. I've had enough of the insane coddling for this neurosis codified into the TOS.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Or barge into a Twitch stream run by someone you've never met, who isn't on your server

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Sorry to tell you this, but there is a difference.

Someone breaking the ToS (by parsing, ui mods, etc.) and keeping it to themselves

VS

Someone breaking the ToS (by parsing, ui mods, etc.) and publicly advertising that they're doing it.

You don't say a word about what you're doing? Shoot for the stars. You admit to doing naughty things or publicly showing you doing naughty things? You do not get to act like a victim when you are punished. You can go ahead and hide behind the "Obnoxious church lady" or "nosing in on other peoples business" as a defense, but Streamers willingly hit the Go Live button and advertise their show. Their business BY DESIGN is public-domain. If they don't like that, then they can go off-stream. Nobody forced them to hit the Go Live button.

You need to drop this defense. As much as your "toxic casuals" arguments. You fight for a Parser to be implemented into the game, then actively give SE reasons not to. You think insulting other people is going to get you what you want?

And before anyone decides to respond to me with anything along the lines of "Your fault you're insulted". No. To the Void with that. You're choosing to be a ne'er-do-well. Get treated like one. You want a Parser to be in the game? Prove you can be civil, instead of bear fangs at people against you.

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Originally Posted by Kenky

Sorry to tell you this, but there is a difference.

Someone breaking the ToS (by parsing, ui mods, etc.) and keeping it to themselves

VS

Someone breaking the ToS (by parsing, ui mods, etc.) and publicly advertising that they're doing it.

You don't say a word about what you're doing? Shoot for the stars. You admit to doing naughty things or publicly showing you doing naughty things? You do not get to act like a victim when you are punished. You can go ahead and hide behind the "Obnoxious church lady" or "nosing in on other peoples business" as a defense, but Streamers willingly hit the Go Live button and advertise their show. Their business BY DESIGN is public-domain. If they don't like that, then they can go off-stream. Nobody forced them to hit the Go Live button.

You need to drop this defense. As much as your "toxic casuals" arguments. You fight for a Parser to be implemented into the game, then actively give SE reasons not to. You think insulting other people is going to get you what you want?

And before anyone decides to respond to me with anything along the lines of "Your fault you're insulted". No. To the Void with that. You're choosing to be a ne'er-do-well. Get treated like one. You want a Parser to be in the game? Prove you can be civil, instead of bear fangs at people against you.

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Motte and Bailey yet again.

Who's being harmed by showing third party plugins on stream? Oh, it's nobody? It's nobody. Punishing people for having it visible on stream is a case of "it's bad because it's against the rules, and it's against the rules because it's bad". The moment the "against the TOS because harassment and incivility" argument becomes indefensible, you guys immediately retreat to "well it's against the rules anyway so it's bad just by itself".

You don't get it both ways. Is it bad because harassment potential, or bad because Square doesn't want to support it? People punished for streaming with plugins who aren't harassing people is what happened last week. And yet, all of the toxic casual arguments center around harassment. Until someone points out that's complete BS, and you flee to pointing at the TOS as if it's some unquestionable gospel that requires no justification.

I don't feel the need to be cutesy and hesitant and shy around Puritanical churchladies who think other people should be banned for reasons that have nothing to do with their obfuscating lies about harassment, when they actually think they should be banned because they hate knowledge and numbers.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Who's being harmed by showing third party plugins on stream? Oh, it's nobody?

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Breaking the ToS. Is punishable. Doesn't matter if it isn't "hurting anybody."

By playing the game, you agree to the Terms of Service. If you break the Terms, you get punished. That's the line in the Sand.

Whether you may see it being "BS" or not is entirely irrelevant, because You Agree to Comply when you start. If you dislike being punished for breaking the rules you sign to uphold, then go elsewhere. Whether it's actually unfair and outright stupid, it doesn't matter. SE enforces it.

SE has given people multiple outs, essentially boiling down to "Don't show you're doing it and we won't be forced to take action." The streamers showed they were doing it, forcing SEs hand. Yes, this is not 100% and it has holes, yes there are times when SE accepted modded pictures in their picture contests. Human error and all. But if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you cannot claim Innocence. Even the "use at your own risk" gives SE a defense that they don't catch all of them. While they are using that in the sense of "We don't know if this may be a virus or corrupt your files" it's also a "if you use this, you are at risk of being banned." Take. The damn. Hint.

Your constant bickering over the same topic when so many people have given you the answer that you seemingly choose to ignore is not on us. That's a -you- problem.

You don't like being punished for breaking the rules? Go play something else. You won't get away with it here.

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Originally Posted by Kenky

Breaking the ToS. Is punishable. Doesn't matter if it isn't "hurting anybody."

By playing the game, you agree to the Terms of Service. If you break the Terms, you get punished. That's the line in the Sand.

Whether you may see it being "BS" or not is entirely irrelevant, because You Agree to Comply when you start. If you dislike being punished for breaking the rules you sign to uphold, then go elsewhere. Whether it's actually unfair and outright stupid, it doesn't matter. SE enforces it.

SE has given people multiple outs, essentially boiling down to "Don't show you're doing it and we won't be forced to take action." The streamers showed they were doing it, forcing SEs hand. Yes, this is not 100% and it has holes, yes there are times when SE accepted modded pictures in their picture contests. Human error and all. But if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you cannot claim Innocence.

Your constant bickering over the same topic when so many people have given you the answer that you seemingly choose to ignore is not on us. That's a -you- problem.

You don't like being punished for breaking the rules? Go play something else. You won't get away with it here.

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So you agree, it's against the rules because Square doesn't want to support third party plugins. Good, that's an acceptable, defensible position.

Harassment is ALREADY against the TOS. Claiming that parsers shouldn't be allowed because someone might be mean is *nonsense*. I'm not arguing for an official parser, because YoshiP has already stated multiple times he won't implement one, because he also holds this nonsense position about "harassment".

The fact that Square is talking about implementing QOL offered by plugins is a good thing. It's about time. A parser is quality of life. But we won't get one because this game's philosophy leans hard into protecting the delicate sensibilities of people who hate learning, hate improving, hate knowledge, and hate numbers. I think that's ridiculous, but Yoshi and I aren't going to see eye to eye there.

I do have to chuckle at "SE enforces it" though. No they don't. Bots are rampant. Speedhacks too. Yoshi watches streams with ACT overlays in front of his face, and he doesn't summon a GM for bans.

They only started this crap when toxic casuals pitched a fit about it and mass reported. And whether the TOS needs an update or not, obnoxious churchlady Karens wielding rules like a weapon is behavior I don't want encouraged.

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Originally Posted by Kenky

You won't get away with it here.

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Except.. people have, had, and will continue to "get away with it". Hell, you have Yoshi-P staring at ACT right in the face and he makes 0 peeps about it. They tell people, when making NSFW screenshots, to just "crop the copyright stuff in the screenshot" so they won't get sanctioned. Hell, if you read between the lines, it's basically "don't ask, don't tell" essentially, as they directly tell you they have no way of knowing you are running 3rd party programs if you don't stream it. You want some "in-your-face" breaking the rules? Go to Eureka, Diadem, or gathering nodes and count the number of bots, day after day after day. Or maybe the hackers/cheats in CC who continue to be unbanned and frolicking free to the chagrin of pvp regulars.

So, break the rules as long as no one's watching, and hell, even if they are watching, not like SE will do anything but the bare minimum. :P

These "dont break the tos" drones don't realize.. SE has been enforcing it willy-nilly, whenever they feel like it suits them.. so either strictly enforce the ToS, or don't, but don't become upset when they suddenly start passing out bans after years of virtual handwaving the issue and people start complaining about it after being "allowed" to all this time.