What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

I would also point out that one issue I had was with the whole concept of sundering so that we could interact or "sense" dynamis easier.

What is the point of that?

In the end, the goal was to use Aether to travel to UT to kill Metion. Why couldn't the Ancients have done that? In fact, we even needed their help. The only point where we influenced dynamis in UT was to get past obstacles the Ancients could have easily bypassed.

In the end all we did was build a ship to get us there.... and apparently the Ancients could have done that (see moonship).... we are even tested to see if we are strong enough by fighting Venat herself.... well great, but we still aren't as strong as a group of ancients just going and killing metion themselves.

It really feels like the entire story relies on the assumption that no one would believe Venat.... which I don't get, since there is plenty of evidence (including work notes from Hermes), witnesses, and a tracker to prove the source of the issue....The ancients believed us as a "familiar"... why wouldn't they believe Venat?

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

In the end, the goal was to use Aether to travel to UT to kill Metion. Why couldn't the Ancients have done that? In fact, we even needed their help. The only point where we influenced dynamis in UT was to get past obstacles the Ancients could have easily bypassed.

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It's implied there weren't even physical obstacles to get past until Thancred works his influence on the place.

The Ancients go in our place, they find an empty black expanse, Meteion chokes them to death. The End.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Such is subjective, I believe. WoW's storytelling had many flaws but many of the characters felt distinct to me at the height of their respective story arcs. The Scions, meanwhile, strike me as very bland. They don't often express much agency of their own and often exist in the present day to fawn over the player character.

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I play a few different MMO's and if I want a good story, I don't go to WoW for it. I would say the majority of my WoW guild feels the same.

But that obviously doesn't mean they don't like games with a story or that the mark of a good story in a game is current/former WoW-players don't like it. It just means we play different games for different reasons. My guild plays both - some who started for the story didn't enjoy EW. Some who skipped straight to 70 because they thought they wouldn't care about a story actually love it and are more invested after EW.

But I disagree that the Scions don't express agency of their own, especially when people complain of Urianger's secretive character. And I trust Y'shtola the least as I think she could care less about the WoL outside of our actions with her.

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Originally Posted by Neotempest

A character dying doesn't dictate what is bad or good storytelling. Let me show you what I mean.

After Fellowship of the Ring, for a character to die.
a)they have to be a "baddie"
b)if they are not, they have to be a minor character.

LotR had no one else, part of the main cast, die after fellowship of the Ring. Heck, some may even argue that the only person to die wasn't a main cast. Yet you will be hard pressed to find someone say LoTR movie trilogy is bad story telling because no one else died. The "worst" consequence in that movie is that Frodo is going to the homeland of the elves. Any movie can be broken down into generalities, regardless of how good it is, and have that movie stripped of its quality.

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The problem is when you set a specific theme for that entire story but then have the entire main cast contradict said theme. THATS bad storytelling and that’s exactly what happened this expansion lol. Also, if they have to resort to plot armor or plot holes just to keep a character alive, that too is pretty poor writing in itself. Like people keep mentioning, the body hop scene accomplished nothing. Despite all the build up of Zenos wanting us to be angry, of coming to him full of rage, nothing happened. It screams heavily like a dropped plot point where he was supposed to kill someone and they scrapped that completely. If you’re going to have a story that revolves around learning to deal with suffering and coping with death, but then have the main cast escape death and get resurrected what exactly is the theme or lesson here? Just be the main character? If you’re the main character you can just get resurrected from death? Everything goes your way and you get what you want? That’s why i brought up the older ff games. The heroes didn’t always win. They lost numerous times, people died, cities crumbled. There wasn’t this constant winning with no consequences going on like there is in 14. We somehow defeat two unsundered ascians, basically gods. We avert the apocalypse that once decimated and almost destroyed the world and we do so with 0 consequences. 0 People dying, not even any side effects for the characters. Let’s not forget they had to literally drop an entire plot point that would’ve put a character in danger. Remember Yshtola’s life drain? Yeah that’s just gone. 10/10 writing can’t have cat waifu mascot die lmao.

You guys know Endwalker isn't a standalone story right? There have been plenty of deaths in the story, just no main cast deaths in the final fifth/sixth of it.

When did Aerith die in FF7? I'm guessing not in the final 20% of the story.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

It's implied there weren't even physical obstacles to get past until Thancred works his influence on the place.

The Ancients go in our place, they find an empty black expanse, Meteion chokes them to death. The End.

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I guess that could make sense... assuming that the Ancients aren't Aether dense enough to resist or bring enough aether with them, since there isn't any there.... although I think most if not all of our magic relies on Aether and it works there fine...also she wouldn't have had 1000 years to collect dynamis, so she wouldn't be nearly as strong. If they had a means to travel there they probably would have snapped her like a twig... she would still just be a familiar.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

From what I see right now, recent WoW refuges are expecting typical story flow like WoW: a big bad evil dude, someone important dies, an epic battle against this evil dude.
They will be disappointed.
For normal FF franchise players, this is an epic story telling.

Those who expecting wow style of lack in-depth character growth will never like Endwalker, that is just how it is

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I read books as part of my profession and I've been with the Final Fantasy franchise for over twenty years. I have written a book about the series, in pre publication. I do not have nearly as much to say about World of Warcraft. Your argument here is simply false.

Endwalker has some great moments, but simply does not hang together very well as a story. There are a number of reasons for this, but I'll list a few.

-Fandaniel simply isn't a very good character. He had a chance to be, but he wasn't. Unfortunately, not only is he a bad villain, but he's a villain who has managed to also be Amon, and also be the character that essentially brought paradise down in flames, Hermes. In all the twisting confabulation of what the three different characters wanted, not a single one of them got anything they wanted. They were utterly different characters with different agendas, and yet contorted to be the same, and then ultimately scrubbed out in service of some bigger plot, so that everything they did and represented was a waste of time. It is simply not very intriguing and leaves a person a bit annoyed.

-Meteion simply isn't a very good character. She had a chance to be, but they pulled every punch with her. They made her a victim with dubious control over what she was doing. By having her appear as the starbird and beg the Endsinger to relent in the final battle, they robbed us of the one emotional outlet we had of dealing with it through gameplay, and put the players in the backseat for the final resolution, which was a long cutscene of forgiveness and turning the other cheek. Compare it to Emet-Selch, who dies screaming about the light that sundered the world, when he fails to kill you in his final ATE attack. And then, defeated, he accepts his death by asking you to remember that they lived. That is a satisfying structure for conflict resolution. Meteion represents no conflict, and no resolution. She already doesn't want to fight you before the last battle begins.

-Zenos is wasted. The finale with him is pretty good. I liked the final duel. But putting him in play would have meant actually killing someone at some point. Oh well.

EDIT: And since it's not very clear from my post, I'll say this. Endwalker is miles above any storytelling Blizzard ever managed in World of Warcraft.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I guess that could make sense... assuming that the Ancients aren't Aether dense enough to resist or bring enough aether with them, since there isn't any there.... although I think most if not all of our magic relies on Aether and it works there fine...also she wouldn't have had 1000 years to collect dynamis, so she wouldn't be nearly as strong. If they had a means to travel there they probably would have snapped her like a twig... she would still just be a familiar.

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I think it's fairly safe to assume that their higher aether density and quicker arrival wouldn't have made a difference, given that Emet quite plainly tells us that they wouldn't have made it as far as we did.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I think it's fairly safe to assume that their higher aether density and quicker arrival wouldn't have made a difference, given that Emet quite plainly tells us that they wouldn't have made it as far as we did.

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He says that but that’s with things occurring my how they did. Had Venat actually told them everything and didn’t kept secrets, things could’ve gone in a completely different direction and the ancients might’ve actually stood a chance. As for the Aerith comment, i’ll point you to ff13-2 and ff15. Both games that ended up killing off the main protagonists at the end of the game, not in the middle. So there’s really no excuse.Its especially bad when they keep resorting to emotional manipulation when they talk about people theyve lost and its the same 3-4 faces from 3 expansions ago because they dont have anyone else to pick from lmao.

I kinda agree that Zodiark deliverance was a bit disappointing but I wouldn't call the overall of Endwalker lackluster, it dealt really well with basically a decade of story respecting all the players that played since the release of the game.