Geomancer

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

You might want to check the "A summary of healer issues thread, some posts around the Has anyone quit healing thread, or just scroll around in the healer forums to the other pages. It's strewn all over the place, and the first post in the "summary of healer issues" has the AST card variety mentioned. Yeah, it's better mechanically currently, but it says a lot when the card system is substantially better in terms of efficiency / usage than before, but less people play it than before and more people turn away from the job itself.

It's also partly why healers as a whole started quitting in droves as a healer - gameplay became too bland.

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Oh no, I fully agree with Healers right now are not as fun to play our kits as Astro's are incredibly powerful and active but healing in content is almost entirely soloable so one of you ends up just spamming Glare. I don't think card variety is going to help its more likely that healing as a whole within the system needs to change in 6.0

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

Oh no, I fully agree with Healers right now are not as fun to play our kits as Astro's are incredibly powerful and active but healing in content is almost entirely soloable so one of you ends up just spamming Glare. I don't think card variety is going to help its more likely that healing as a whole within the system needs to change in 6.0

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Yeah it is more of a systemic issure than a Job issue, The best way to fix this would be to either roll back some of those changes or force encounters to necessitate more healing

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

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1. My stance on Job Fantasy, insofar as you guys keep treating it as a thing, is that if any job is too similar to another, regardless of role, then there is an issue. I don't believe Geomancer is too similar to White Mage. They could both be Healer, Tank, DPS, whatever, I would not consider them the same thing. If they are, then they shouldn't be added. Because I don't believe any job is to similar to another regardless of role, and I would rather not see that change.

2. I mean, you are misinterpreting it because you're fixating on specifically Geomancer as a healer when I don't see the job fantasy as dependent on roles.

3. It's perfectly reasonable. If a job is so shallow it can't stand on its own two legs then it shouldn't be added. Add a job that has more depth. I don't agree with the stance that Geomancer is shallow, but if that's the stance you guys want to take then so be it. As for what I'm advocating for I've said it several times. I even gave you a specific post that you could check. If you can't be bothered to read what's being said then you're really just doing what you're accusing me of.

4a. Red Mage and Scholar have a separate job fantasy that is independent of role, so I'm not sure how this is proving my premise wrong. Though Scholar is not exactly consistent. One need only look at TA2 to see that calling it "Black and White Magic" isn't an absolute.

4b. Samurai and Ninja are as different as White Mage and Geomancer to me, so not sure the argument you're making makes sense.

4c. Again, all of these jobs have a unique core aspect that differentiates them and would be the same regardless of the role they're in. Like Bard and Dancer, which are both in the same role (and even same subcategory of the role).

4d. And as I said, Scholar and Summoner represent different job fantasies, so even if Scholar was a Caster or Summoner a Healer they are different things and can stand on their own just fine.

5. Saying I feel something is not the same as saying it's absolutely true. And none of what I'm doing is opposing the popular option for what it is. Though combined with this and your last sentence it seems like you're just making an appeal to popularity.

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

its more likely that healing as a whole within the system needs to change in 6.0

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Personally I'd be down to see such reforms as:

• WHM being reworked into largely a GCD-based direct healer through the Cure line, like having their HoT effects reworked into buffs to healing received
• SCH reworked into a stance healer, with Selene reworked to focus on counterattack damage and Emergency Tactics reworked into a toggle, so that you're compelled to change "formation" with the situation; could also use some button consolidation
• AST losing Sects and becoming the dedicated HoT healer (calling to Time Mage's use of effects like Regen), with an emphasis on effects that stagger and slow down incoming damage to make the HoTs manage it; this could also pair well with the cards system, giving you windows to focus on spreading buffs while HoTs tick away
• A new Battle Healer-type job focused on fueling healing resources via damage output (like a Drain/Osmose effect); a high uptime attacker but only bursts of potency

... But I'm also weird and think there should be a push towards emphasizing GCD and single-target heals. And that Synastry could be displaced from AST onto maybe WHM or a new job (a Drain-based healer with Synastry could be wild).

At the very least I don't think GEO poses opportunities for a truly unique healing model, while it would have a lot of leeway as a DPS. Perhaps as a stance-based caster, or a displacement of DoTs from SMN so they can focus on their pets.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Personally I'd be down to see such reforms as:

• WHM being reworked into largely a GCD-based direct healer through the Cure line, like having their HoT effects reworked into buffs to healing received
• SCH reworked into a stance healer, with Selene reworked to focus on counterattack damage and Emergency Tactics reworked into a toggle, so that you're compelled to change "formation" with the situation; could also use some button consolidation
• AST losing Sects and becoming the dedicated HoT healer (calling to Time Mage's use of effects like Regen), with an emphasis on effects that stagger and slow down incoming damage to make the HoTs manage it; this could also pair well with the cards system, giving you windows to focus on spreading buffs while HoTs tick away
• A new Battle Healer-type job focused on fueling healing resources via damage output (like a Drain/Osmose effect); a high uptime attacker but only bursts of potency

... But I'm also weird and think there should be a push towards emphasizing GCD and single-target heals. And that Synastry could be displaced from AST onto maybe WHM or a new job (a Drain-based healer with Synastry could be wild).

At the very least I don't think GEO poses opportunities for a truly unique healing model, while it would have a lot of leeway as a DPS. Perhaps as a stance-based caster, or a displacement of DoTs from SMN so they can focus on their pets.

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The removal of Ast sects just to give the gimmick to Sch is kind of along the lines we have been arguing with M*rron about, how it would feel kinda cheap to take from the one healing class and put it on another. But I do feel like a new "battle healer" is coming, but I know you want Necromancer where I want whatever Bajsaljen ends up being called outside of "battle medic".

Changing to a GCD healing system would require a lot, and I mean a lot a lot of overhaul of the battle system, which hell, it's not like we're getting much content these days anyway. I'm just pointing out they really would have to change encounter design from the ground up. How damage goes out, potencies adjusted, enrages timers changes, dps would also have to be tweaked to accommodate.

Which every mock up I see of Geomancer people have come up with some very cool ideas from positionals to cycling elements to end in the large ancient magic finishers, to juggling/balancing elemental gauges for attunement. So I can only imagine what the pros are coming up with at SE.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

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Fair with regards to SCH/AST, I'm just noting that it would be fitting for SCH since the building blocks are already in place. Selene doesn't do anything that couldn't be handled with Egi Glamour, and SCH's healing falls behind the others – healing through Living Dead is near impossible for them – in no small part because of the limits of their shield-focused heals. As Seiki said, NoctSect is on its last legs for AST regardless; it's not simply about taking one away to give to another job, it's about killing two birds with one stone, trimming excess from AST and refocusing SCH using a similar principle. (Though I wouldn't completely compare the idea to Sects, since what I had in mind would include allowing you to toggle Shielding vs Direct Healing in-combat based on your immediate needs while still emphasizing SCH's unique barrier spells, instead of creating a Flex Healer like AST.)
As for Necromancer... I'm not dogmatically attached to it, and I would be happy with any healer that offers unique mechanics. A dark-oriented healer just happens to fit the slot perfectly and "necromancer" has a strong theme to build around. I wouldn't be so against suggestions like Chemist if anyone could convince me it could be unique outside of "throws potions".

I agree that a push to GCD heals would require changing a lot, but at the same time, most of the healing community agrees that a lot needs to change anyway; too many tools for too situational use.

But I digress.

With only three full casters, there's loads of untapped potential for rotations, so GEO gets a lot of leeway. Plus the only other full job with water attacks is NIN, weirdly enough.

Just gonna jump in here to back up the "Geomancer as Caster"-side of the argument. While they certainly could find a way to make Healer-GEO work, the jobs history makes it seem to me like it'd fit better into a DPS role. It's never been much of a healer before and the vast majority of iterations were more DPS/Debuffers, and I'd rather they stick with that than try to re-invent the wheel when its unnecessary.
There's also Jobs like FFTA's Elementalist which are basically offshoots of the GEO concept (and fill the same DPS/Debuffing role) that would function well to fill in any skill gaps that a purely GEO-inspired skillset would leave.
(Btw, can we all stop forgetting that classic GEO technically had access to all elements through different Terrain/Weather and would thus be a prime candidate for a true elemental caster? Sure, FFXIV's version points out Earth/Wind/Water specifically, but seeing as Ishgardian Astrologians are very different from the AST we got I dont see that as an issue :P)

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Technically off topic but:

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

Changing to a GCD healing system would require a lot, and I mean a lot a lot of overhaul of the battle system, which hell, it's not like we're getting much content these days anyway. I'm just pointing out they really would have to change encounter design from the ground up. How damage goes out, potencies adjusted, enrages timers changes, dps would also have to be tweaked to accommodate.

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Forgive my bluntness, but this is nonsense. Right now most encounters in the game have healing requirements that are so low that they can be met through OGCDs alone while full time DPSing, which is a big part of why healing is so boring atm. And even the encounters with harder requirements tend to have a lot of healing downtime, spending a few more GCDs on actual healing would at best provide more variety rather then cause any mechanical problems.
We're playing a game where Damage (especially partywide damage) is mostly coming in predictable spikes, and due to that fact all that would really need to be done to shift to a more GCD-focused healing design is reduce the overall number of oGCDs. OGCDs don't need to go away ofc, they just need to be more a limited resource rather then the main focus of the healing kits as they are now.
There is nothing that needs to change about encounter design, healing predictable damage per GCDs instead of using an oGCD while full time DPSing wouldn't change much, if anything, really.
Healer-DPS doesn't need to be adjusted past making up whatever is lost through adjusting whatever skills are already there or adding back skills previously removed or (obviously) new skills, possibly of a similar fashion as WHMs Afflatus Misery (i.e. skills that reimburse the caster for using GCDs on healing).

What gets often lost in these healing conversations is that prior to SB healing was a mostly GCD-focused endeavor, and even in Stormblood healing was a lot more balanced between GCDs and oGCDs, and the game functioned perfectly fine. Shadowbringers really didn't change enough (if anything) about encounter design to warrant as many oGCDs either, so I don't see how a shift back to a slightly more GCD-focused system would cause issues.
It's also important to note that SE seems perfectly willing to change whatever few encounter would "break" due to role changes (which would likely only affect Ultimates anyway), given that that's exactly what they did at the start of ShB to account for the Tank changes.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

(Btw, can we all stop forgetting that classic GEO technically had access to all elements through different Terrain/Weather and would thus be a prime candidate for a true elemental caster? Sure, FFXIV's version points out Earth/Wind/Water specifically, but seeing as Ishgardian Astrologians are very different from the AST we got I dont see that as an issue :P)

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I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

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I assumed Heart of the Dragon was merely because Swallow’s Compass is at the heart of the dragon named mountain range running throughout Yanxia. And while you follow the path of the dungeon you cross the water of the One River to the Fanged Crescent with is also know as the Dragon’s Head.

But I do agree that some elements but not all sounds plausible, because of the break between Geomancer and Ony. But both those schools of magic seem to blend and separate depending on where you look in the game. I feel like the only npc we have using only three elements, plus the Swallow’s Compass being the original Geomancer school they probably want to focus on their elements.

Granted they could always come out of left field and give them all elements with the blending of the two schools completely. I feel like fitting 6 elements into a hot bar sounds like a nightmare. And with how streamlined and smooth the new classes have felt I’m sure they could figure something out. But it does sound like a lot.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

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Well, there is so much discussion going on about GEO being oh-so-similar to Conjurer that it seems to me that people are forgetting that the other elements were part of the classic skillset as well. So I thought I'd put it back on the table.
Real-Life Feng Shui doesn't need to have much bearing on how GEO would be designed here, seeing as in-game it seems all but accepted anywhere that there are six elements; and other games' iterations of the job also mainly focus on the whole terrain/weather-gimmick which had nothing to do with Real-Life Feng-Shui either.
I also feel it's important to point out that AST for instance, while being based on RL-Astrology, takes plenty of liberties with the concept, so GEO can take as many liberties with Feng-Shui as it needs.
In many ways, I find this games elemental cycle(s) already reminicent of the Feng-Shui elements, but maybe thats just me.

Mechanically there are many ways to include all elements, they could for instance create a dual-rotation - one on the GCD, one on the oGCD - based on the two elemental cycles we've learned about.

Ultimately though I think a full elemental caster is a concept that they haven't explored before (other than Y'shtolas Sorceress), and might be an interesting concept for them to take given GEO's history.
And I think they should look at the entire History of the job should they ever choose to create it, not just the bits and pieces of lore they created when they still tried to shoehorn GEO into AST.
Ignoring an otherwise interesting concept because 'practicality' also seems like a waste, considering the elements are purely visual in this game anyway.