Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

At yourself? Sure. I mean you're clearly ignoring everything else he said about DPS not having a sword for reasons, and claiming no mention of tank or DPS was stated. It's hard to admit you were wrong, so it's fine. Not to mention ignoring everything else I've stated that contradicts your own arguments.

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Okay, I get that this is the internet. But sarcasm isn't that hard to detect, is it?

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Also, yes a defensive stance can be argued to exist on DPS, simply because it can be argued as a survival mechanism, something many jobs have (like my mention of MNK). You have Seigan for your defensive stance, that only buffs Third Eye and allows for a low chance to counter (with or without TE). You pop Seigan and TE, all avoidance potential is used up after 10-20sec, you're left with 40-50sec of low chance to counter as your justification of it being able to tank uniquely from other DPS that also have tank-like properties. No additional abilities to mitigate damage without needing to rely on a subjob, where even then, it needs to deal with extensive cooldowns once the next TE is used up and another 40-50sec are left remaining unmitigated reliably.

Sounds like a great tank, right? Maybe it sounds a lot more like the defensive abilities I've mentioned other jobs have to survive temporarily until an actual tank can take over.

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This isn't a temporary ability like the defensive abilities that dps get. Seigan is a recast of 1 minute with a duration of 5. It's a full-time defensive stance, which cannot be used at the same time as their offensive stance. And no, your defensive abilities are not down for 40 seconds, wrong again. It's a 30 second recast.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Okay, I get that this is the internet. But sarcasm isn't that hard to detect, is it?

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It actually can be, but good on you.

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This isn't a temporary ability like the defensive abilities that dps get. Seigan is a recast of 1 minute with a duration of 5. It's a full-time defensive stance, which cannot be used at the same time as their offensive stance. And no, your defensive abilities are not down for 40 seconds, wrong again. It's a 30 second recast.

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I never said Seigan was temporary, I said the other jobs have temporary survival abilities, and that Seigan by itself isn't much of a "tank" argument. Once again, failure to read. EDIT: Actually no, I'm wrong on Third Eye on that, yeah. Deleted the previous sentence. Seigan bonus. So let me ask this then... why was SAM never used as an actual tank? Real question, since apparently it has so many great qualities. I mean, even with TE at 30sec, there's still the very real threat that you lose it right off the bat... what do you do then? Pop subjob cooldowns? Then you lose TE again and those defensive cooldowns are gone.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

EDIT: Actually no, I'm wrong on Third Eye on that, yeah. Deleted the previous sentence. Seigan bonus. So let me ask this then... why was SAM never used as an actual tank? Real question, since apparently it has so many great qualities.

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Answered this earlier.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

That it "didn't work" is a result of, again, XI's poor balance. PLD and NIN were just that much better. And we already know that NIN was never meant to tank. That it could tank doesn't suddenly make people think that the image of a ninja is that of a tank. What the players use things as has nothing to do with the job's design. The players are always going to use things in the way that benefits them the most, intended or not.

Tank balance got worse in endgame as they tried to balance the game around NIN tank existing, which made things far worse for every other job; even PLD couldn't keep up with the amount of damage being dished out anymore and had to resort to using /NIN just to stay alive. Even though other jobs had clear examples of tanking abilities, if you don't make them as good as the best, they're never going to be used, because the game has to be balanced around the best thing available to the players.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Answered this earlier.

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That didn't stop people from using MNK or THF to tank in small parties though. MNK didn't even always use Utsusemi in Merit Parties. If SAM is as good of a tank as you think it is, and those two other DPS jobs could potentially tank well, what does that say about the idea that SAM is a tank? SAM could have just done as THF did and go /NIN, if it really was conditioned to tank.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

That didn't stop people from using MNK or THF to tank in small parties though. MNK didn't even always use Utsusemi in Merit Parties. If SAM is as good of a tank as you think it is, and those two other DPS jobs could potentially tank well, what does that say about the idea that SAM is a tank? SAM could have just done as THF did and go /NIN, if it really was conditioned to tank.

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It absolutely was used to tank in small parties. I actually tanked most of my time on it whenever our tank had to go. I also had a friend who tanked with it while I healed. It didn't even need /NIN, though it was at times used. Because what didn't use /NIN? It couldn't tank in endgame, but what could other than PLD and NIN? Or RDM/NIN. Or Anything/NIN. That's also why I can't consider THF/NIN an example of THF's ability to tank. Because anything could tank with /NIN.

Anyway... I'm veering way off topic here. I've turned this into an FFXI thread. Sorry about that.

And I may have gotten a little too antagonistic in my argument. Wasn't my intention.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It absolutely was used to tank in small parties. I actually tanked most of my time on it whenever our tank had to go. I also had a friend who tanked with it while I healed. It didn't even need /NIN, though it was at times used. Because what didn't use /NIN? It couldn't tank in endgame, but what could other than PLD and NIN? Or RDM/NIN. Or Anything/NIN. That's also why I can't consider THF/NIN an example of THF's ability to tank. Because anything could tank with /NIN.

Anyway... I'm veering way off topic here. I've turned this into an FFXI thread. Sorry about that.

And I may have gotten a little too antagonistic in my argument. Wasn't my intention.

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My THF/NIN tanked way better than PLD/NIN did during certain periods of various expansions lol, like your mentioned period of increased mob damage. Not because I could keep threat better or anything, but because for as random as evasion was, it was a very noticeably different story for high evasion skill jobs. It dodged even more often than NIN main did, but couldn't keep up with NIN because of better threat tools, debuffs, and better Utsusemi. I rarely saw SAM/NIN at all, but that's likely because it was accepted as purely DPS to everyone I met... plus all the SAM I've had couldn't control threat, even if they wanted to. MNKs, BLM, etc would have better sustained or burst damage, which would make non-Provoke tanking a pain.

And yes, apologies all around. Went on for too long lol.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

It's also funny you try to use that armor as an example after saying ffxiv doesn't have job identity in armors. Because when one thinks of Final fantasy Blackmages the image that comes to mind is totally a tribal tattoo covered witch doctor...

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Remember that he did say "unique". The Igqira set was very unique. Doesn't have to necessarily relate to the jobs cliche look in FF to be that way. I mean, we did have this as a thing before...

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/me..._ark_gear1.jpg

I still think that, at least for BRD/MCH, that was a pretty damn lackluster go.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Remember that he did say "unique". The Igqira set was very unique. Doesn't have to necessarily relate to the jobs cliche look in FF to be that way. I mean, we did have this as a thing before...

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/me..._ark_gear1.jpg

I still think that, at least for BRD/MCH, that was a pretty damn lackluster go.

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And I posted an equally unique set from FFXIV making his argument pointless and nothing more than a subjective opinion. To claim ffxiv doesn't have unique identifying gear for its jobs while ffxi does is entirely incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

And I posted an equally unique set from FFXIV making his argument pointless and nothing more than a subjective opinion. To claim ffxiv doesn't have unique identifying gear for its jobs while ffxi does is entirely incorrect.

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Well sure, but we have generic sets too. I do recognize that it was more prevalent there as endgame gear though... maybe a downside of horizontal gearing style there, since so many people clamor to the one good one for so long lol. I dunno, I always just joke on the end that we keep blinking anyway, so it somewhat justified the mismatched looks, I guess lol. Limitation of software back then maybe. They did get a lot better though as time went on, at least, since players now actually commonly have their upgraded AF/JSE equips on as a norm. I think it was Abyssea that really started making players wear unique gear job-specific stuff as a norm. Empyrean armor was pretty badass and would probably go over pretty well here, where it'd apply, just as the Koenig look did.

http://i.imgur.com/EZdVZmU.jpg

Example of Empy gear:

http://i.imgur.com/13qss.png

i think Red Mage should be a healer. then he can heal with magic, use cleric stance to attack with magic and can use his sword to attack in melee range regardless of his stance, making him a dps-healer who can hopefully compete with scholar. that would also give some new, fresh gameplay feeling. keepings HoTs up, activate cleric, keeping DoTs up, then go in melee range and attack, dodge some aoe and cast some attack spell before you move back in melee range... healer is the only role who can fit all aspects of a Red Mage.

Samurai as a DD, because we already have a tank with a 2 hander sword and people are begging for a sword-DD, so why not give them one? also he would fit as a DD with heavy armor and we currently only have dragoon as a heavy amored DD.

No idea for Dancer... just a Bard/Machinist copy is boring. Another healer with buffs? We already have Ast for that. Tank with dodge abilitys? Either it is too random to dodge and you need strong defense anyway - wich would be OP - or it is too OP because you just dodge all the tankbusters and laughing the raid-bosses right in the face. i think a dodge-tank is impossible to balance in this game.