From what I can tell, it looks like they just assumed PLD+WHM for every fight as a design basis. Result is that mechanics are focused around one opponent smashing for huge damage, which goes right ahead and kills WAR outright. That would not be a character balance problem, per se; that would be an encounter design problem. PLD scales to damage, so PLD wins in high-damage situations. Up and make almost every fight the exact same design scenario -- throw big damage at one guy -- and PLD is going to be preferred for every single fight. Of course, at the same time, the current overall battle design has healers with way too much MP and healing for way too much. With healing as it is, WAR has a tough time making a meaningful difference with its drain. Even the 300% recovery on Inner Beast is nothing when your tank is getting hit for 1000 damage per second. To match the additional mitigation from Shield Oath alone in that scenario, Inner Beast would have to heal about 3500 HP if it goes off every 17.5 seconds. That would be comically overpowered and won't happen. PLD is going to be the preferred tank in most situations for mathematical reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilized
WAR has a few other disadvantages, namely stun and silence, but that's really secondary to the fact that WAR can't tank because of how much they increased healing amounts (roughly double over Phase III) and how encounters are designed.
Will Warriors ever get any LOVE?
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09-26-2013, 04:27 AMGamemako
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09-26-2013, 04:36 AMRyios
Level Puglist to 8 and get second wind and feather foot = Evasion bonus + 400 hp emergency heal off gcd
They should make Inner beast 4 stacks for full heal... Five is just weird, you need a combo to gain wrath, so you end up 1 -> 2 -> 3 = 2 wrath 1 -> 2 -> 3 = 2 wrath (now you need 1 more wrath but have to waste 2 gcd's to get it and break up your 3 hit combo) . Inner beast at 4 would make things much better.
Also why the cooldown on unchained when it requires full wrath? I mean what's the point of the ability other than to compensate for bad gear to get hate?
It really would be more balanced at 4 wrath imo and much more acceptable from a healer/group perspective.
Secondly, we have TP issues with overpower. it's the only reliable way for us to hold aoe threat
Vengeance -> Over Power, then we run out of TP and lose adds. While paladins can spam flash with blind non stop and they can recover mana with Riot Blade. So I don't really get how warriors are better AOE tanks. Warriors are better for AOE trash that's going to die in under a minute, otherwise, not really unless they are getting tp buffs, but even then it runs out eventually. And if your DPS is going balls to the wall in relic +1 you can't really let up till you run out of TP. Secondly if a Paladin has all the adds with blind and they cure themselves it generates enimity on all the adds attacking them. Our inner beast probably doesn't do the same thing.
To me, I think Warrior's are better MT's Big Hit Eaters and that the gear from BC will make that more relevant once some Warriors get it. The bigger the gear gap gets the more that will stand out. A warrior with the best gear will out HP a pld by over 2k and Heal for a crap ton with Inner beast.
I don't think things are perfect right now, but I'm not quitting my war over it. -
09-26-2013, 04:44 AMHachikoSo much of this is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryios
Point one: Convalescence doesn't increase WAR self heals. Only incoming casted heals.
Point two: Unchained does nothing to increase Inner Beast damage because it already ignores the Defiance penalty.
Point three: Unless your WAR has 4000 hp endgame, Second Wind will not be a 10% heal.
Though I agree that inner beast should be available more often. And Featherfoot is the best defensive WAR cooldown other than Convolescence.
Unchained is a nearly pointless skill. Its only real use is to gain a huge threat lead in phase 1 when bosses usually don't do significant amounts of damage, or maybe for the rare burn phase (can be useful against Titan Heart). But it's mostly a trap - it reduces incoming healing AND it makes inner beast unavailable. -
09-26-2013, 04:47 AMRyios
My war has 6250 HP end game, and yeah I'm at work, so apologize the incorrectness.
And I popped convalence in a raid last night and got a bigger heal unless it landed at the exact time of a heal, don't think so though. It's possible for tooltips to be wrong.
Inner beast, I was indeed wrong on, sorry there, I'll fix it.
Also here's the tool tip from Conalescence
"Increases HP restored by spells or actions by 20%."
E.g. Actions Count -
09-26-2013, 04:50 AMZephyrKHis point was that unless you have very low HP, you aren't getting the returns on Second Wind you claimed you are. If you have 6250 HP, you would need Second Wind to heal 625 HP to be a 10% heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryios
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09-26-2013, 04:51 AMZezlar
WAR had a leg up on Paladin for a looooooooooooooooooooooooong time.
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09-26-2013, 04:53 AMRyiosGotcha, was reading a bad site...Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrK
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09-26-2013, 05:04 AMHachikoYou can test it. It does not increase healing from either a) % based healing (Lustrate, Thrill of Battle), or b) Self Heals such as Inner Beast, Blood Bath, Etc. (haven't tested it with second wind).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryios
Another way to test this is against the last boss of AK. He puts a % debuff on youthat reduces healing by 50%. But your Inner Beasts will still heal you for normal amounts, even with the debuff.
Also worth noting: the self heals don't generate any threat, though activation of some of the abilities might. -
09-26-2013, 05:46 AMKyri
Im gonna have to agree with the OP here. I played PLD and WAR in 1.0 and preferred WAR in 1.0 much more. I like tanking and I don't mind WHM. Lately, I barely pop on to WAR to tank and tend to go as PLD. Partially I do this for my husbands sake who is my WHM (and always has been) because it eats up a great deal of his mp when I go WAR. When I go WHM I cringe when I see a WAR as my tank because though I love the job the curing spam I have to do can be insane so I have to agree with my husband. I love the job don't get me wrong. I guess maybe its a small payback from 1.0 when WAR all but took over tanking and left PLD in the dust(towards the end of 1.0) I am sure we will see some buffs as soon as they can find a way to balance it a bit more without completely replacing PLD as was in the end of 1.0.
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09-26-2013, 05:49 AMGray_Spy
You expect someone without a shield to take equal amounts of damage to the face...as say....someone with a shield?
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09-26-2013, 05:57 AMTheWitcher
Both PLD and WAR should have teh base 20% damage reduction, PLD already has far superior mitigation tools, you can remove the stupid 15% extra healing and HP from Defiance, but the tanks will never be on par if one has 20% mitigation its just to good
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09-26-2013, 06:40 AMNanaya
The tank with superior mitigation is the preferred one for endgame, color me surprised.
I will definitely agree Warrior needs tweaking. The only time I go on Warrior anymore is to farm. If it is actual content, Paladin is just easier on everyone, at least in my experiences. AK is not nearly a good enough dungeon to warrant paying close attention to my rotations for the 50th run, PLD on primals is less effort on the healers, especially when you are getting Mountain Buster'd, etc.
I am curious to see what they will try to make the class more enticing. It will never be allowed to mitigate as much damage, because that's the Paladin thing, but clearly they need to be able to take less damage to be wanted. -
09-26-2013, 07:33 AMRedEyeDeath
I have only hit 42 warrior and I love the tank. Its a lot of fun to play. Defiance is beautiful for enmity and inner beast is an awesome move. Defiance makes bloodbath useless though.
I have heard about healers having a hard time keeping their mp up whilst healing a warrior tank.
Is a high ether or a mega ether or elixer out of the question or something? I know they have a 60 second cool down and you can hotbar an item. -
09-26-2013, 07:51 AMHachikoIt's not just MP problems, though that's part of it. It's also the number of GCD's required to heal someone. Warriors require ~9% more healing, baseline, under optimal situations (holding on to 5 stacks of wrath). So even if MP wasn't an issue, you're talking at least 9% more GCD's to keep a WAR healed. This means to heal a WAR in the same amount of time as a PLD would be healed either a) they have to rely more heavily on Cure II (significantly more MP) or b) they need 10% more GCD's to heal the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedEyeDeath
Under situations with high, constant damage it just becomes much more taxing for healers to keep up, because once you get to situations where the tank is taking a ton of damage, their self healing from Inner Beast is dwarfed by the 15% bonus healing from Wrath, which makes it only usable on a 1 minute CD. And since WAR mitigation scales with WAR dmg, it simply wont scale as fast as PLD mitigation which scales with Monster damage. -
09-26-2013, 08:11 AMMakedaWhen people said the class was weak, Yoshi, in more polite words, told them to "L2P":Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
http://gamerescape.com/2013/09/20/tg...h-translation/Quote:
y; Earlier today, I was told by a player that Warriors are weaker than Paladins
y; They are harder to play
f; It’s more technical
y; You need to bring in a lot of the the additional (skills?) to get it fully out
y; But really, in development team, warrior are really strong, and it’s more stable
y; So right now it looks like Paladins can hold the enmity and tank, however
y; honestly Warriors are really strong.
y; Players haven’t researched enough so I would like players who are up for a challenge to stand up and play.
y; We the development team really recommend Warriors
I suspect that the devs feel the current crop of warriors and those healing them are doing it all wrong. Probably because too many people are trying to boost mitigation instead of self-healing.
To get attention on it, folks will have to figure out how the devs are playing the class, how dev healers are healing it, copy that, and then still end up weak. Folks need to stop trying to play a shieldless paladin, and go play a warrior - IF after doing that it stil comes back weak, Yoshi might pay more attention. -
09-26-2013, 08:25 AMRedEyeDeath
Hachiko, that makes a lot of sense. I have been leveling up gladiator(fell in <3 with it when I leveled it for warrior) as well and through that journey I really have noticed that gladiators can just last longer. I solo'd a 23 fate at 21(with 17 green gear) with nothing but myself and my chocobo. Could I have done the same as marauder of that level..im not so sure.
Sounds like the problem is in your very last sentence.
"And since WAR mitigation scales with WAR dmg, it simply wont scale as fast as PLD mitigation which scales with Monster damage. " So why doesn't warriors mitigation scale with monster damage as well?
This is just an observation but I noticed a buckler on Curious George's AF gear. Im guessing for aesthetics only. lmao
I have noticed that pairing the ability berserk with Inner Beast will make you heal much much more.
A rotation I pulled off: I was able to hit the 40 Job move takes off the damage limiter, (can't remember name at moment ><) , then hit em with the Storms Path (1 Wrath) Berserk(2 Wrath) Enmity Combo (4 Wrath) Maim(5 Wrath) Inner Beast-- healed me almost 1K damage. I also popped featherfoot for the whole thing. -
09-26-2013, 08:32 AMArtamie
I can't say I have much experience tanking on warrior but lore-wise the warrior excels at what they do with the aid of a scholar right? From what I've seen, people have been saying that PLD + Sword Oath will put out as much if not more damage than a warrior with defiance on using their auto-attacks. The scholar's Selene fairy is able to increase skill speed up to 30% so how does the damage field look with that factored in?
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09-26-2013, 10:18 AMGamemakoPlease understand that I haven't gotten to endgame WAR. However, I can see a glaring mathematical disadvantage for WAR based on damage output observed in videos. In these videos, tanks are taking no-joke 1000 post-defense damage per second (this is 800 damage per second on a PLD after Shield Oath). WAR's self-healing compared to PLD's Shield Oath, nevermind Rampart and Sentinel, is pathetic in these cases. Let's consider a case where PLD has a 5% mitigation advantage from blocking. WAR will have an average of 7% healing bonus from Wrath over 17.5 seconds (requires use of 1 off-GCD move, which isn't always feasible, but we'll be generous). Over 17.5 seconds at 1000 DPS, PLD mitigates about 4166.67 damage. WAR heals around 1000 from IB and heals an additional 1144.86 through DPS-matched healing bonus (quick note: 15% healed is less than 15% reduced -- it's 1-1/1.15, or ~13% damage reduction equivalent). That puts WAR behind by 2021.8 per 17.5 seconds, or around 115.5 per second. That's before you consider Rampart and Sentinel, for which WAR has no equivalent. Basically, if you try to spam IB as WAR, you're necessarily going to suck. Everybody knows that by now, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Makeda
If you hold 5 stacks of Wrath as long as you can, you'll alternate between Infuriate and building 5 stacks over 15 seconds. You could just as easily laugh at this, because you're obviously doing the PLD-but-not-PLD setup which is obviously weaker. Still, it's worth demonstrating that in endgame scenarios, this is the most efficient way of playing WAR. Over 75 seconds, you'll have 5 stacks of Wrath for 60 seconds and around 7-8% for 5 seconds (we'll assume 7% as for). You'll get roughly 981.3 additional healing during alternate building phase (15s) and 7826.1 additional healing over waiting phase (60s), plus two shots of Inner Beast (~2000 more). That's a total of 10807.4 per 75s, or 144.1 more per second. For IB spam, we had 122.56 healing per second. Now, to be fair, you should include Infuriate in the IB spam method. If you assume you hit it straight away, it's 1000 HP per 60s, or 16.667 per second. On top of the previous number, it's 139.23 per second for IB spam method, but you've now got an extremely unreliable setup for IB spam. Oh, and it's still weaker in this scenario than just sitting on Wrath stacks and being a gimped PLD.
This is just the math. WAR is inferior in this scenario by a lot, and playing WAR as a gimped PLD is the most efficient way to do it. You could make a case for other elements making up the difference, but the opposite is true: PLD has equivalents for everything WAR uses (or just cross-classes the skill), plus has its own advantage in the form of Rampart and Sentinel as well as superior Stun and the all-important Silence (which WAR outright lacks). Even if someone figures out a way for WAR to survive better, PLD will copy the strategy and still be the superior tank. With damage rates as high as they are right now, WAR will necessarily be weaker.
WAR cannot win here, and I believe there is a fundamental part of design (mob damage rate relative to player HP) which prevents WAR from being able to keep up in any current endgame scenario. Worse, SE cannot just buff WAR's healing; it would just become even more overpowered solo. There are only two viable countermeasures: to provide WAR with party-specific mitigation or healing boosts, or to reduce healing and damage rates. Since GLA/PLD already has Convalesce, there are limited options here without just duplicating skills. Buffing Wrath's healing rate bonus would do it, but the change would make the class more PLD-like (i.e. would increase the advantage of the sit-around-and-not-use-your-abilities setup). Buffing IB's use rate would make WAR unstoppable outside of endgame parties. Neither of these would address the gulf created by the lack of burst mitigation, which would still mean that WAR would die first. The one solution which would address the problem up and down is to reduce healing and damage rates (maintaining the same healing-to-damage ratio, but effectively boosting net HP reserve and relative advantage for WAR's self-healing), but that has one right up and huge disadvantage -- it makes the game easier, and that isn't acceptable. And finally, none of these would address the skill weaknesses of WAR.
So yeah, I think SE is just about painted into a corner here. I expect WAR to suck intil level cap increases at least, simply because the changes required to be competitive are far too great. Let me give you an example of how you'd address it by changes, and you'll see why it won't happen:
Net reserve durability changes:
Wrath
-> HP bonus increased from 25% to 33%
Thrill of Battle
-> HP bonus increased from 20% to 30%
-> Cooldown reduced from 120s to 60s.
Sustained mitigation changes:
Wrath
-> HP healing bonus increased from 3% per stack to 5%
Core ability weakness changes:
Steel Cyclone
->Added Stun effect
//EDIT: That post turned out a lot longer than I had intended. -
09-26-2013, 02:04 PMRoaran
Warrior is different. I have cleared up to turn 4 in bahamut's coil and not once have I felt inferior to our paladins. We take 20% more dmg, but we receive 15% more in healing. We have much much more HP, and we have the ability to do some significant healing in a pinch. Almost all damage in ARR is predictable... Titan's mountain buster, and in the bahamut coil the boss's stacking buffs/debuffs are all mechanics that you can plan your skills around. If you use your heals correctly, you are very very hard to kill.
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09-26-2013, 02:20 PMNinix
Glorious Yoship-sama say warrior is fine
git gud -
09-26-2013, 02:44 PMAmyas
Too many people are trying to play War like a Pld. Nearly every post about 'fixing' War talks about how 'shields' should be added to skills. I say NO. That's like saying 'Well, drg doesn't have many range attacks, they need to be able to use bows' Stop trying to change the job and play it properly.
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09-26-2013, 09:22 PMRamStormrageHi bro.. i am a warrior and im currently having difficulties main tanking TiTan. Id love to hear how did you do it and how do you use your skills to the fullest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roaran
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09-26-2013, 09:31 PMdanteafkthat guy has not even seen coil from the inside, look at his achievements on lodestone.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamStormrage
@OT: No, reroll a PLD or wait 6 months for SE to do anything, if at all. -
09-26-2013, 09:37 PMLeonas
WAR seems to just crutch a whole lot more, or should I just say, is much much more gear dependant than a PLD.
The game released unfinished. You have a huge jump in terms of iLvl. You go from DL at ilvl 70 to Allaghan/AF2 at iLvl 90. Crystal Tower was delayed, but was supposed to be in release, which was iLvl 80 gear.
I'm betting WAR would have less trouble in Coil if they were able to equip with iLvl80s.
All DArklight --> Allaghan/AF2 did was show how massively dependant WAR is on gear in terms of PLD with their shiny 20% mitigation shield oath. -
09-26-2013, 09:39 PMFiron
They need to make the 15% healing buff on war perma and not based on wrath and they should make bloodbath drain 100% hp back on attack like it did in 1.0 and only 25% for everyone else. Instead of reducing the recast time of forsight they should had an parry bonus to it. Also they should make it so not every fkin war skill cost 5 stacks of wrath. I think those 4 things will even them out.
Even without shield oath pld can still take alot less dmg than war Bulwark ramprt and sent reduce a ton of dmg and Convalescence helps a ton too, which pld gets an enhanced version of. Also just want to note flash makes mobs miss some times as well which also reduces dmg you take. I have made Titan miss his table flip a few times cause of flash.Quote:
All DArklight --> Allaghan/AF2 did was show how massively dependant WAR is on gear in terms of PLD with their shiny 20% mitigation shield oath.
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09-26-2013, 09:47 PMLeonasDoesn't WAR get flash as well as a cross class? Or does the extra benefit for the miss only from from a trait on flash?Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
Curious. I only played MRD to 26 and my wife has a massively geared PLD. The gear dependancy was the only thing I've seemed to notice, I'm not saying WAR is fine, it does need some loving. -
09-26-2013, 09:47 PMFironThe blind effect is pld only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonas
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09-26-2013, 10:19 PMArgentilMy MT is a warrior, but let me relate to you WHY PLD interrupts are "essential." Randomness. It's that simple. Ifrit will cast chain eruptions on your group as they're all bunched up to avoid the plumes surrounding him. I have done many groups with two warriors where we have died at that point because their interruption is unreliable. I don't like randomness getting in the way of a near-perfect run where we shouldn't be dying at all. Ifrit is easy, latency makes eruptions harder to avoid when they're chained. It's somewhat unfair to tell your group to simply dodge everything. These fights are tuned around interruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kn3xis
Aside from skewed interruptions between the two (imo, interrupt should be a utility rewritten for DD and should be eliminated from a tank's toolset), the only tank I dislike, is an undergeared one. All of you PLD joining Garuda with level 41 weapons, and NO level 50 gear - You think I don't notice? It's usually the PLDs. I have never had a horribly undergeared WAR in Garuda's (probably because they're self-conscious about their damage mitigation).
Between the two, I prefer WAR, they're a bit spikier, sure, but their HP pool and increased healing makes them fun. Take the last boss of Wanderer's Palace as an example, we just nuked down the adds without worrying about 5-stacking his damage buff. It maxes out at 5k damage and my Warrior in starting level 50 gear had more than that.
TL;DR Having played everything before Titan, I have not had a problem and prefer my WAR tank. I will not speak for Titan HM and Coil. Interruption overall needs retooling. -
09-26-2013, 10:23 PMBruiser_Cruiser
Im just gonna ignore all the threads about how warrior is bad and try it out for myself. I think ill get WHM 50 first but it just seems theres already so many healers out there. PLD looks awesome but im more of a big axe kinda guy so WAR it will be :)
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09-26-2013, 10:35 PMFironYou can fight iffy w/o stunning a single eruption, its all about position in that fight if ppl just stand anywhere your gonna have cracks under everyone and wiping the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argentil
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09-26-2013, 10:44 PMSentinel
I have said this before and I will say it again, give WAR a passive that turns all their self heals into a shield if they end up over healing themselves, this will balance them out and also lower the skill cap required to play them properly. There is a huge skill gap between WAR and PLD which needs to be lowered. This alone will go a long ways into making them on par with PLD. After that, if its still not enough, then talk about doing other buffs with em.
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09-26-2013, 11:03 PMNikkita
Wow guess I didn't know people had an issue with this. My WAR FC members are every bit the tank my PLD FC members are. I actually am ridiculously impressed by our one WARs ability and skill in everything they do. Some us joke when we run dungeons with him that we're just gonna let him solo cuz he doesn't need the rest of us. He's just that impressive.
One of our rising healers had been doing pug groups to help him learn his healing role, he ran with this particular WAR and his comment was please don't try to teach healers the runs with him as tank because they will suck with everyone else because a run with him is such a cake walk. I don't know what he's doing but he's sure as hell is doing it just right.
This really must come down to preference and skill... Nothing wrong with the job in my eyes even as a healer. -
09-26-2013, 11:03 PMRyios
I use Holmgang all the time in AK to clear trash faster. AOE goes all out (and they can kill the wall before the adds spawn so dps is high) and they often pull for me. So I'll plant my feet, holmngang their primary target and in that five seconds I get hate back from them pulling and it can't move while I do that.
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09-26-2013, 11:17 PMVmage
progression content
the warrior's downfall isn't tanking easy stuff, it's tanking hard stuff
PROGRESSION CONTENT
your ease of clear in 'dungeons' or the speed of your 'dungeon' clear is irrelevant to progression tanking
back in phase 3 anyone even halfway decent at number crunching realized paladins would be the superior tank for progression content, but warriors would be able to clear farm content faster
in short: if you're a new 50, a paladin would probably be the better choice for titan - warrior for everything before, if you've almost finished your darklight a paladin would be the better choice for coil - warrior for everything before, if you've almost farmed out coil/af2 there's nothing left for the paladin to be better at - warrior is now an option for coil
tldr - paladins can tank what warriors can an entire tier of gear earlier. -
09-26-2013, 11:18 PMLhunIt's not that hard.
All you gotta do is look at the stats on some endgame Japanese warrior. There is nothing wrong with war.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/3902146/ <-
See the difference? See how much HP she has? That's BEFORE defiance, before Thrill.
I still need to upgrade my accessories, but yeah:
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/2881036/
The point is all you need to do is look at the AF stats to see where everyone is going wrong.
PARRY is your damage mitigation. it can be over 20% sometimes. DEX and PAR affect the RATE at which you parry - you will see this in the damage popup.
Str influences the AMOUNT you parry for. it follows a 40/41/40 trend. The STR tier thresholds for parrying are 243, 283, 324, 364 and 405. The next ones after gear would be 445 and 486. There's a potential 16% damage threshold, and you need DEX and parry rate to parry often. This makes us even. Because everyone is focused on damage mitigation from WAR, you're literally gimping yourself.
for War, 405 is the minimum STR you should be going for for max mitigation. You parry roughly 20% of the time. This may be improved later on - I have to do more theorycrafting. -
09-26-2013, 11:28 PMSoulscare
Speaking as a PLD, WAR has it way better... You get to take Flash and Provoke where as we get nothing from other to generate enmity.
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09-26-2013, 11:40 PMRyios
Personally, I'd love to take the AF2 chest because it has parry on it and a DL Helm with some parry on it, but you can't because DL helm is paired with chest.
My point is that I seem to always have a slot somewhere with no parry on it. And Imo, they designed 2 piece gear specifically for this reason, you physically can not find a helm and chest with parry on it, not that I've found. Even if I went AF2 chest for parry, the AF2 helm is without parry.
So while I agree Parry is important, stacking the crap out of it is rather difficult. -
09-26-2013, 11:43 PMdVsDaMaJa
Have no problem really tanking that much dungeons as WAR. The provoke is awesome, shouldn't have that many problems if you start the fight out right.
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09-26-2013, 11:48 PMRyios
This conversation isn't really about dungeons. Dungeons are ezpz. This about content like Bahamuts Coil, which is on a whole nother level than Dungeons (Even AK).
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09-27-2013, 12:15 AMTronic
WARs definitely need an enhancement in their healing skills.