FATES need a nerf

I have a few issues with fates:

1) Zero skill.
2) The mechanic used to calculate your contribution seems out of whack. Take Coeurlclaw King. You can hit him once and get max exp. Many fates are like this.
3) Fates only really work in some zones since "everyone is doing it." I duo'd a fate the other day for 11 minutes and got 10k exp. That same exact fate when taken down with 20+ people in 45 seconds... still nets 10k exp.
4) The "tag the mob and you get experience" mechanic doesn't belong in fates. I understand why it is like that for regular mobs. But in fates? There should be no exp reward for killing the enemy. Just the aggregate reward at the end.
5) I wouldn't mind actually doing a dungeon for some exp (it seems to be pretty good). But, there is a serious lack of tanks. Maybe they are all off leveling on fates? :P

Besides being the best leveling option at the moment (esp. for second/third/... classes) FATEs are also the most inclusive content the game has to offer.

FATE groups can be pretty much build however you want, there is no need for dedicated tanks/healers. I've had groups with 4 healers and 4 DPS, 3 Tanks/3Healers/2DPS, and every possible composition you can think of. The levelranges are quite forgiving, more often then not you will see almost ~10 levels difference between the lowest and highest member of a group. They offer an option to do it as long as you want. You have half an hour? No problem, say "bye" once you have to go, no one is going to be mad and the spot will be filled up in no time. And even if no replacement is found directly you can go on with fewer people without a problem.

These things and the fact, that you are not able to influence the speed at which you can progress (no "go go go" shouting to tell the tank to pull more and faster), and that there is no clear goal (no "ololol gimme them lootz from da bozz speedrunning") make FATE farming in groups one of the friendliest, socially inclusive and overall nicest experiences i have found in the game. The "forced" breaks while waiting for new FATES to spawn is often a good time to actually chat with the people you are with, and make friends outside your already established FC circle.

so for all the bad things FATEs have, they at least can offer some positives besides being the "pure grindfests" a lot of people make them out to be.

I normally just join fate events as I go along, and I enjoy the copious amounts of experience I get from them. Despite the fact that most players who are grinding Fates to level are either really high up or working on their other classes, people seem to hate them for the exact fact that they help make the leveling process easier on subsequent classes. Fates are fun, intuitive and a good way to break from your soloing shell so that you can actually converse with others instead of doing Leves/dungeons all day. Your contribution is also calculated and weighed along with your level, so if you level sync, then you're almost guaranteed a gold medal since the most menial of contributions are weighed much heavier than someone who is genuinely trying, but is 4 levels below the fate level (not to mention they would naturally be doing more damage due to higher stats/gear).

The problem with FATEs is all the people mobbing them, some players are unable to gold medal some FATEs because they don't last that long. Stuff dies way too fast with all the people killing. It actually makes it frustrating and annoying. Kinda ruins them.

I just don't get it. Every game, every forum there are 100 posts that boil down to "nerf this because its not how I like to play". In what way does person A running fates affect you person B? So they got to level 50 again how does it affect you? When they hit 50 did you suddenly gain 10 levels and miss out on content? Oh you didn't ok. If person A wants to be fast and use nothing but fates and doesn't care about the "journey" so what? If you want to level slower and enjoy the content and explore, sweet have fun. Why does person A having fun different from person B matter AT ALL?

I just don't understand the need lately to tell people what to do and how to enjoy a game. We should all be thrilled we aren't sitting in a corner grinding kills. You won't see me posting how everyone should do quests and if a fate pops stop all while waiting in DF for a dungeon and doing a leve every 10 mins like I basically do.

Tl,dr
You play you, I will play me, they will play them.

You know, you don't actually have to participate in FATEs if you don't want to.

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Originally Posted by Virin

I just don't get it. Every game, every forum there are 100 posts that boil down to "nerf this because its not how I like to play".

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And yet, all those people who are level 50 and saying that, you never really saw them saying that BEFORE 50, huh? But the second they don't need FATEs anymore... Funny how that works.

General argument: "You don't actually have to participate in FATEs if you don't want to."
This is unfair towards those who enjoy other forms of leveling up. Since FATEs are the single most powerful and easy way to level up, efforts for other, more challenging and to some more fun ways to level up will not be rewarded enough in comparison.

General argument: "Then why not just buff everything else up?"
1) This would still keep large crowd FATEs Whack-a-Mole competitions with no proper class roles and no challenge beyond said competition for XP.
2) Nerfing one thing is easier than buffing five.
3) Turn-in FATEs would remain abused.
4) (Opinion/personal) Too fast level-up speed will drain the contents of the game dry too fast. Not good for long-term commitment and renewing subscriptions.

Moontide, I don't think you understand that there are no other viable options for leveling up.

I don't mean to say you don't know what you're talking about, but you don't know what you're talking about. And that isn't me being rude, its me trying to get you to understand what its like post storyline.

When you run out of storyline, everything else is just completely cut off from you. It is like playing a whole new game, because suddenly after you already have gotten what you wanted out of that level (hunting log, maybe 1 or 2 leves, maybe a dungeon), you are still 50-80% of the way from leveling.

And then what do you do? What do you propose everyone do? Force them to run a dungeon that they don't want to? Make FATE grinding a complete chore (lets say 1/2 the xp), so that it takes twice as long...for no benefit?

Like other people said, I don't buy the argument it makes other forms unfair. If you do other forms for the point of gaining xp, -you- are the one making a conscious choice to give up xp, for more enjoyment and/or ease, or social aspect, or cutscenes, or what have you.

tl;dr: You can't have your cake and eat it too. You cannot just have whatever it is you want to do be the best xp, simply because you do not enjoy what is currently the most xp, as xp innately has no value other than...level, and if you consume other content then it is your choice to, and you shouldn't feel bad that you're gaining less xp.

Wow that was a long and terrible summary, but this is what I mean.

Please, I beg you to get a character to 50, then renew your crusade against FATEs. Until then, you have no idea what its like.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

snip

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I think what you are missing is that making something take longer doesn't actually INCREASE content... you are just dragging out the SAME content. How is killing a mob 1 time better/worse than killing a mob 10 times? Did the mob CHANGE between the first time I killed it and the 10th time? I would argue that it did change... for the worse, because it got easier and easier to kill to the point where it just got boring. I don't mind doing something multiple times, but this is why I also have issue with the darklight gearing system. To get a full set of darklight gear I have to complete AK at LEAST 65 times. How in the world does that sound "fun" to you?


Since your Conjurer is only 32, you still do not have a max level character and cannot speak at all toward FATE grinding being "too fast". Why? because you cannot FATE grind to 50 and then call it a day on your first character. YOU HAVE to at least do all the story quests (even if you skip all the side quests) which is going to take time, and force you to run around the world. While you are running to the various zones anyway, you might as well do the side quests since it is actually a faster way to level WHILE completing the story. Being 32, you haven't even hit the worst of it yet, since you will be going on tons and tons more go to this zone, then go to this zone, then backtrack here, backtrack there, backtrack, backtrack everywhere!

And you HAVE to clear through the story to even unlock the HM primals, which you have to do to unlock the raid. So everyone that is "quickly" pushing to the endgame and "clearing content too fast", did all the same story quests you are doing right now, all the mandatory dungeons (there at like 8 of the 11 or so that are mandatory), did the three normal primal fights, and then grinding AK 65 times to get into BCoB. So how are they already doing at this, because it is certainly not a "fast" process. They are playing hours and hours on end, for days and weeks on end.

Bottom line, those who are primarily FATE grinding are leveling their 2nd and 3rd job to max level. That has NO effect on game content, since you only NEED one job to do the content. So all your points about why it should be nerfed are moot, since it comes from the basis of slowing down the leveling process of your FIRST job. Now if you want that to be slower I think I would rather shoot myself in the head... the story quest itself already has you doing tons of pointless stuff just to drag it out as it is... to the point where they are making fun of themselves in the process (the part of the story out at wineport in the 30s comes to mind...)

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Moontide, I don't think you understand that there are no other viable options for leveling up.(Snip)

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Originally Posted by ChickensEvil

(stuff about how hard it is to do it with second class)

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You are both attacking my personal preference without touching the fact that it's an easy and unchallenging bit where only the speed of tagging monsters counts.
For the leveling speed opinion: I do understand about the scarcity of the content. I've played MMOs back when it wasn't necessarily a smooth quest ride from the bottom to the top. Pausing to look for options about things to do is when I've found the most fun during MMOs though. Having to look at your options instead of "Do this one thing only" makes the virtual world feel more like... well, a virtual world.

The main issue is the brainlessness, exploitation, class unbalance, gear irrelevance and easiness, not the exact XP value. Those are the things that need to change regardless of my own preference about leveling speed.

Except all your arguments (from your last post, especially) argue about the xp gain.

I'm sure we would ALL like to have interesting, perfectly balanced, engaging, and quick/rewarding content.

The fact that none exists outside of the storyline quest is a problem.

But as we have reiterated time and again, nerfing fates is not the answer to this problem. If you have an actual solution that

1. makes dungeons more appealing
2. makes player "skill" more relevent
3. makes my goddamn dps queue not so long

I would gladly hear it.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

General argument: "You don't actually have to participate in FATEs if you don't want to."
This is unfair towards those who enjoy other forms of leveling up. Since FATEs are the single most powerful and easy way to level up, efforts for other, more challenging and to some more fun ways to level up will not be rewarded enough in comparison.

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No, you can still do the other, more challenging, and fun ways of leveling up if you want to. Absolutely no one is forcing you to level to 50 as fast as possible.

There's no race to level 50 (and if there was, you've already lost). They're not going to shut the game down before you make it. If you want to take your time and do that other content then go ahead and do it.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Except all your arguments (from your last post, especially) argue about the xp gain.

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Effort versus reward has been my main focus all the time. The fact that it's too easy in comparison to almost everything else, especially when you take the huge rewards you get to account.

And same to Axlle below. They are not alright the way they are. For the very least they need to start to scale properly and base the rewards in a manner where monster tagging is not as huge of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

In comparison to the MMOs of the past that's a blink of an eye. Either way as I said slowing things down is a personal preference. I enjoy the journey rather than the endgame. Hence I'd like it to last longer.

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yes, you enjoy it. but not everyone does. just because you enjoy it you would like to see it forced upon others for no other reason than your sole belief? again. there is no viable reason to reduce fate exp. all it is going to do is piss everyone off if people keep talking bout this. no one wins from any of this. what you guys and gals need to post is about buffing the other leves and dungeon queues. knowing SE they will listen to the people who complain than those who think FATEs are alright the way they are.

When will people learn that nerfing is not the way to go. If you nerf Fates, they will just shift to doing something else and then you will be screaming for a Fate buff because no one is doing them....and the circle begins.

The current design on the Fate system is taking in to account the amount of players doing them, therefor, the Fates are not a challenge when the Fate itself lasts no longer then 1 - 2 mins at times and you can barely get a skill off to land contribution.

The sheer amount of people doing these Fates is making it trivial and sometimes you are lucky to even get a hit on a mob to gain contribution. I do not believe this is how the Fate system was orginally designed.

What I woild like to suggest to fix this issue is, simply scale the diffculity of the Fate off the amount of people ethier inside the Fate Zone area OR the zone itself for that Level range as some zones have different level limits in them, i.e. Central Shroud. Scaling the NPC's will increase thier overall HP and Damage output, but the reward will still be the same. Therefor they take longer to complete and will require coordination, healers to actually heal and Tanks to actually tank.

I disagree with bumping up the XP Dungeons to be on par with XP gain from Fates and I do not believe in nerfing them.

This will make them a challenge and not a rush fest.

I hate stuff like this because I need fates. I already used up all the quests in game for Lance 50 and Arcanist 50. What am I supposed to do for my other classes? Nerf it and I simply wont bother to level them until there is a better alternative.

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Originally Posted by CrazyDuck

I don't care what people say,by experiencing this for myself and testing this you can lvl very quickly by fate grinding,

i was getting about 15k to 80k exp every 10 to 20 minutes and sometimes more.


not only does it deceive the point in the game, but because you can lvl so fast it makes gear/crafting/dungeons pointless for getting to 50.

(dungeons) - for gear and exp is pointless as the exp is no where near the exp you get from fates and the gear you will just outlvl anyway very quickly from doing easy mode fates
(crafting) - pretty much the same food/gear for lvling pointless because you outlvl it so fast from fate grinding.

its pretty much a breeze to 50 because of the fate grinding which makes dungeons and leve's obsolete for battlecraft.

fates should spawn less and be a lot harder as they are a group live event that should be able to be completed in 3 seconds.

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as long as they delvl everyone who used it to get to 50, especially the ones who admit they used it.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

I've played MMOs back when it wasn't necessarily a smooth quest ride from the bottom to the top. Pausing to look for options about things to do is when I've found the most fun during MMOs though. Having to look at your options instead of "Do this one thing only" makes the virtual world feel more like... well, a virtual world.

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Ok, let's consider our options for leveling a second/third/fourth class atm:

Mindlessly grind mobs alone
Mindlessly grind mobs in groups
Mindlessly grind low level dungeons
Mindlessly grind fates

Yep, you're right- that was loads of fun!

It sounds to me like you have nostalgia goggles on. I've been MMOing since Ultima came out in '97, and I can assure you that I remember just how crappy mob grinding was in Everquest, XI and Aion. FATEs are just fine as they are. Dungeons need a boost to put them on par with FATEs (which would make them the superior options, since they also offer money and items). Neither needs a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Wizzar

as long as they delvl everyone who used it to get to 50, especially the ones who admit they used it.

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I agree with this 100%. Nothing bothers me more than seeing a level 50 (who I NEVER saw post anything about FATEs before they hit 50) suddenly appear screaming "NERF FATES!" just because they don't need 'em anymore.

I think the promise of deleveling these individuals would certainly change the viewpoint of many of them. :)

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Originally Posted by Tolmos

(tl,dr: Dungeons need boost FATE should stay as it is.)

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You can't deny about FATEs not being the most mindless out of the options provided at the moment though. They teach very little about your class. And you missed battleleves completely from the options. Those need a huge boost from what they are now. Something tells me that they were supposed to be the thing to grind or at least use until you don't dare to spend your levies anymore once you're out of normal quests.

My personal pet peeve with FATEs is still the fact that in larger groups people get huge rewards for very little effort. Call that me wanting a difficulty buff / effort nerf at least if you want.

And I still stand with my slower leveling speed preference. You're free to disagree of course.

If you want a slower leveling speed, then they would need to nerf more than just fates. If you are determined enough, you can hit 50 in about 4 days through just the quests (not FATE grinding), making both forms about even as far as xp vs time. "People are hitting 50 too fast" well then stop blaming FATEs, because it isn't just them. What you want is an XP nerf across the board, which is a totally different argument. Even if they did change it at this point, what would be the point? To hurt those who are NOW going to pick the game up? They aren't going to "de-level" anyone. Look at the legacy severs with everyone who was 50 prior to this.

Hell, you think this is bad? From talking with one of my legacy friends, there was a time where you would bring in a level 1 with a bunch of level 50s and carry the level 1 up to 50 (including for crafting professions). So you would go from 1-50 in a span of HOURS (not days). If they didn't "de-level" everyone then, I doubt they would do it now.

Also, if you are a smart player, you are leveling your regular classes through FATEs/Dungeons and saving your Levequests for crafting (because unless you like to torture yourself, leves are about the only decent way to level crafting (triple HQ turn-in FTW!)

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Originally Posted by ChickensEvil

Also, if you are a smart player, you are leveling your regular classes through FATEs/Dungeons and saving your Levequests for crafting (because unless you like to torture yourself, leves are about the only decent way to level crafting (triple HQ turn-in FTW!)

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Bit sidetracking here, but yeah. That's how it is right now and that's precisely why battleleves need something to be done to them. They're worthless in comparison to the crafting/gathering ones.

1) Remove XP from FATE mobs (thereby also removing chain XP bonuses).

2) Better scaling of FATEs based on participating players.

All you really need.

FATES don't need a nerf.
Dungeon exp and mobs exp need a buff.

People seem to throw around "it doesn't teach you your class" as if learning your class is a long and arduous journey that requires 40 hours of grinding to do.

Learning a class is as easy as going into the forums, reading for 30 minutes, then maybe practicing for 30 minutes.

The mechanics of MMOs aren't something special either...the people that learn how to avoid stuff learn it quickly...the ones that can't, generally never do.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

Bit sidetracking here, but yeah. That's how it is right now and that's precisely why battleleves need something to be done to them. They're worthless in comparison to the crafting/gathering ones.

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And on that subject I wholly agree!

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Originally Posted by Swag

1) Remove XP from FATE mobs (thereby also removing chain XP bonuses).

2) Better scaling of FATEs based on participating players.

All you really need.

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Umm you do realize that after chain 4 (??? I think it is ???) you get no more increasing xp bonus. There is a cap, and it is pretty low. The rest of the chain bonus is just epeen and also kinda funny. Cause who doesn't like seeing a 200 chain? Having XP from the mobs balances out the terrible FATEs that give you little to nothing for doing them. Most zones there is usually one or two great FATEs for XP (both mobs and completion), a handful of good ones, and the rest are just crappy.

On another note, I do agree with scaling, since when you get over, like, 100 people on a single FATE you start losing XP because it gets harder and harder for your group to do enough damage to a mob to get XP credit on the kill.

i dont mind the XP you make in fates.. i would like to see fates made harder.. to EARN that XP... right now all i do when i join a fates nearby (i dont grind them, i got dignity lol) is TAB BIO TAB AERO TAB BIO... do this for 20 sec and i get GOLD RANK and 10-15k XP. no one dies, no need for party mechanics.. fates should change the name to "XP piñata!!!"

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Originally Posted by Desolas

FATES are fine, the problem is the community mindset of wanting to be carried.

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You probably approve of FATEs because your one of those FATE stompers who just love the repetition yet complain about it being done on dungeons for what? Four levels? I'm sure the six or more levels you gain in the same area is nowhere near as repetitive especially when you do it over and over on your "second or third class".

FATEs pretty much coerce everyone into doing it with the thousands and thousands of exp more than any other feature the game offers. After anyone realizes that they could of gotten more than ten times that amount instead of doing dungeons or leves they'll leave immediately. All my friends gave up dungeons and started spamming FATEs because of that but there's a limit to how much exp. someone will give up to have fun and I highly doubt anyone will give up over 80% of it for the sake of fun unless they don't know about it.

I know a guy who got 4 jobs to 50 in a couple of weeks, averaging about 3-4 hours a day. Nobody should be able to do that in that time, nobody. The kicker is, he doesn't even play half of the time, he just AFK in a FATE party. So he got 4 level 50 jobs by doing absolutely nothing more than half the time. Can't say I blame him, FATEs are so mindless you might as well AFK.

There are plenty of people who have ALL battle jobs to 50 before their one month free subscription is up, that's just ridiculous. Once they've beaten Coil, which probably won't happen, they would have literally done everything in the game.

Endgame is all that matters? The only thing you do at 50 is grind AK or run Coil, and not many ppl are doing Coil because they don't have the gear, skill, confidence, or group organization to do it. All people do after getting a Job to 50 is: speed grind another Job to 50 via FATEs. And if "endgame is all that matters" is the mentality of this game, why not just give everyone the option to just instant 50? In fact, why even get another 50 job? You only need one 50 to do endgame.

FATEs wouldn't be all that bad if not for FATE parties. Players SHOULD NOT be getting credits for things their party members do. Parties should not be necessary for anything except the harder FATEs like Behemoth, which are easy enough as it is, or to make a particular FATE more efficient (not necessary), or for social purposes.

Something seriously needs to be done about FATEs; I understand they're trying to make the game more casual friendly but this is ridiculous. In FFXI, getting all 75 jobs was a grand feat that required dedication and the speed of which it was accomplished depended on your gear and performance. In here, you can do it mindlessly in 1/1000th the time.

And no, its not that dungeons need a buff, FATEs NEEDS a nerf or serious tweaks. Period.

I heard they're doing something to ease the problem of people blazing to 50 in all their jobs, which is good to hear. Unfortunately, a lot of damage is already done.

Fates are fine stop complaining. I actually didnt use fates to get my main class to 50. Now that I ran out of quests. Fates are great and the best thing is I can get other classes to 50 without having to constantly upgrade my gear and waste inventory space.

i wonder about the people that complain, so how do you level after you done all the quests on your main and you want to level a second class to 50? Do you just grind monsters than?

you guys say nerf fate now but later on when u do sub job you be buff fates

Guys, I know you want to level all your jobs. But is running from one end of the map to the other, to auto attack 4 enemies in a laggy zergfest to get gold rank is fun? Nevermind that your gear is 15 levels behind.

The CM basically out and said the current use of FATEs is working as intended.

So I suggest we think up ways to make them more interesting or "dynamic" or more skill intensive instead.

They ain't gonna nerf the xp.

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

Endgame is all that matters? The only thing you do at 50 is grind AK or run Coil, and not many ppl are doing Coil because they don't have the gear, skill, confidence, or group organization to do it. All people do after getting a Job to 50 is: speed grind another Job to 50 via FATEs. And if "endgame is all that matters" is the mentality of this game, why not just give everyone the option to just instant 50? In fact, why even get another 50 job? You only need one 50 to do endgame.

FATEs wouldn't be all that bad if not for FATE parties. Players SHOULD NOT be getting credits for things their party members do. Parties should not be necessary for anything except the harder FATEs like Behemoth, which are easy enough as it is, or to make a particular FATE more efficient (not necessary), or for social purposes.

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Well it wouldnt have been the mind set if Yoshi himself didn't say the game starts at lvl 50, so thats the mentality.

Until the devs come out and state that fates aren't working as intended, you spouting opinion trying to argue it as fact just doesn't work.

Fates are fine.

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Originally Posted by Zeila

Until the devs come out and state that fates aren't working as intended, you spouting opinion trying to argue it as fact just doesn't work.

Fates are fine.

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FATEs are not fine. You spouting opinion trying to argue it as fact just doesn't work.

See what I did there?