Vanity slot restriction concerns.....

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Originally Posted by Zfz

This one I'm a little wearywary about.

In my opinion this breaks immersion as much as seasonal gear does. A tailor shooting big fireballs at Titan? A fisherman withstanding the wrath of Bahamut? I see it as down right ridiculous.

Then there's the question of class restrictions. Some crafting gear is for that particular crafter class only. It is also a reward for the hard work and resources put into leveling that class. Now you let everyone wear it, the prestige suddenly disappears. Same as gatherer gear.

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I've only played one game that had vanity gear options, and you could only use the look of gear you possessed. Is that not the norm?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Wants a toggle option for their personal POV -snip-

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I personally support this idea, allows people who detest vanity systems to view people's normal gear from their computer without effecting everyone else. It would also address the commonly brought up "I need to see proper gear in PvP so no vanity there plz" issue. People who consider that a strategy could just Toggle Off instead of everyone else being forced into not having the vanity system for PvP to cater to a minority.


I've edited my first post as people seem to have gotten the idea that the restrictions I listed as reasonable are what I want. They are actually just what compromises I could live with. If I was my say there would be NO restrictions on dyes or vanity slots at all.

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Originally Posted by Obreck

No seasonal gear: I don't agree and think it will annoy far more players than please, but if Square doesn't want people running dungeons in bikinis and reindeer suits for lore reasons kind of hard to give a counter argument. So long as they are aware lewd people will still dress provocatively and trolls will still mix up lore friendly gear into immersion breaking messes.

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This is one I hope they dont do. This would really be the only reason for seasonal items to ever leave my inventory/storage.

I already have no idea why the magic type items are for All Classes and not Magic only.

On the seasonal gear... That doesn't include just those christmas reindeer suits and bikinis...

That would also include the Yukata's as well.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I think maybe you're referring to the accessories?

If I remember correctly, all caster gear have the DoM classification while all physical DD gear have the DoW classification. I don't think there are caster gear (i.e. with INT/MND and no STR/DEX) that has the all-classes classification.

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Nope. The only DoM stuff with a DoM descriptor tends to be the unique gear you get from dungeons, or high end reward gear. The bulk of "caster" gear can in fact be worn by any class (Cloth martial gear also included to show how compatability flows downhill but not the other way):
http://i.imgur.com/VSLdxDg.jpg

Oh how my WHM wants that cotton shirt something fierce, but no, it's neither a dress nor a potato bag, so no dice...

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Originally Posted by Nahaara

http://i.imgur.com/VH9LDVH.jpg

My body is ready

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Dem hips...

And people wonder why I like to play short races. :O

I'll concur with RyuujinZERO's post by adding a comment I made earlier. While I don't expect "everyone can equip everything" like in 1.0's lauinch, I do think that there should be a degree of flexibility for vanity slots.

don't allow PvP gear to be used as a vanity item or have a vanity option applied to it should be a restriction as well.

If I can't wear my reindeer suit to Titan I don't want vanity at all !

YOU HEAR ME SE ?! ! ?

If you do this you are basically sucking the fun out of the game for some people, I really hope you don't.

Hey as long as I get an off switch, I'm totally cool.

Not that I mind a vanity system, mind you(in fact I'd make extensive use of it!), but most people have a hard enough time dressing themselves in the morning. I'd rather not see a crazy cacophony of crazy mismatched colors and outfits that never should have seen the light of day... :(

If I can hide vanity costume by right clicking on a name and choice that option in a menu, then I'm all for total freedom, but freedom for all, to show or to do not see.

I left TSW, partly because of ridiculous costumes everywhere (on a RP server), that's my choice, it can seems ridiculous to you as much as your silly costumes can look ridiculous to me.

What's cool is to have the choice, when you're free of yours and I'm free of mine.
But for those who showing off is at the level of a psychopathology, that hide option will be the ruin of all their efforts to dictate their right way of having fun and the unbearable uncertainty of getting noticed.

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Originally Posted by Nahaara

http://i.imgur.com/VH9LDVH.jpg

My body is ready

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I'd pet that ! :)

Id just like it to allow us to use other gear your current class uses. Lets be honest, some of them look ... well, look at the Bard AF gear. Honestly, I wouldnt want to see anyone tanking in a bikini ... it just breaks that 4th wall and looks ridiculous. Just a preference, no biggie regardless of what they do.

Also a 'hide weapon' thing for MNKs would be nice ... not a fan of brass knuckles, claws, of that Nemian Cestus ripoff from God of War 3. Monks ... as is fists>all, even Blizzard had the sense to include a way to customize it.

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Originally Posted by Rakashu

don't allow PvP gear to be used as a vanity item or have a vanity option applied to it should be a restriction as well.

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No, no, and double NO. This is a tiny minority view in the MMO community that should not be forced on everyone.

The Off Switch Toggle that has been suggested would be a far better solution for players that want to view other's true gear in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Kayo

Id just like it to allow us to use other gear your current class uses. Lets be honest, some of them look ... well, look at the Bard AF gear. Honestly, I wouldnt want to see anyone tanking in a bikini ... it just breaks that 4th wall and looks ridiculous. Just a preference, no biggie regardless of what they do.

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If I wana tank in a bikini who are you to tell me not to, screw breaking immersion, this is a video game !

They are going to be adding outfits from a whole other game, immersion is already tossed out the window.

I say no restrictions. I wanna dress like some of the NPCs get to already.

<^.^>

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Originally Posted by Jinko

If I wana tank in a bikini who are you to tell me not to, screw breaking immersion, this is a video game !

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As I said earlier I really dont care about restrictions so long as I can turn the system off (client side option), but for the sake of it. "This is a video game" defense for wearing anything you want doesn't really mean anything.

I've seen it a few times before in vanity threads (and similar arguments in other unrelated threads) and I'm not sure what people think when they say it. Yes it is a video game, has nothing to do with clothes, but yet it also does.

"Who cares about graphics, stories, or even if it works, this is a video game!" are pretty similar statements imo. Immersion is used in discussion because it is a key consideration of designing things, even if you are explicitly taking an incredibly unrealistic phantasmal approach to things (which FF is not taking, though of obviously still not trying to be like say CoD).

Immersion isn't just how "real" it can be and I suppose the discussion can be bad due to flexibility and stretching of words but really its about being able to dive into the content in a way that I'm sure all designers want- most often things don't have to be real to be immersive they just have to flow- the player not mentally cracking from step to step. Its really about your target audience, people who play skyrim wont cry immersion breaking when a dragon pops up- their wandering with bliss in the forest and their immersion is uninterrupted when something happens that is impossible in real life. In fact it would be heightened when they see the dragon in the distance. In that case more immersion from less reality, but of course you are going by a sort of paradoxical logic of what would be real in an unreal reality. So I suppose it is quite understandable to see why some people talk about realism - but its not about "real" reality as much as the reality in the game, and the reality of the game is incredibly important (immersion in these type of games is incredibly important, while there are different types and talking about tetris might make it sound unimportant- in these type of games where you are personally invested with your character.. it is important).

I don't really want to write many lines on this, particularly because I don't think many people here would feel fascinated or care about it.. (and if i write that much i might feel obligated to better proofread lol) but .. the forums mock immersion like a child mocks a subject they cannot even pretend to grasp.. I find it awkward because from all points I look at the subject its pretty easy to grasp and usually boils down to discussing opinions (of what can make sense in what isn't reality). But then again I guess we're not best about discussing opinions lol. I get a little annoyed when I see people mock immersion just because in most cases you can tell they have no idea what they are mocking. Edit: just to be clear I didn't think you were mocking it as much as tossing it out as an idea- not that I think tossing it out is good either but.. just wanted to say the entire passage isn't directed at you lol.

Anyway crapply carrying full circle, saying screw breaking immersion as a blanket statement is a terrible idea- of course for particular audiences you will do it inevitably but really that shouldn't be your goal. Keep your players "immersed", submerged in your game, drowned them in your addiction so they forget about reality.. then you've both created a problem for reality (lol) and also a game people will really talk about.

Vanity system will definitely break some people's immersion but it won't for everyone (in some cases it will "fix it" / enhance it), and even more so if you create caveats like a toggle or restrictions you can even maintain more people caught in the game (imagine a venn diagram of trying to fit as many people in as possible (of your target audience) lol). For myself I say restricted or toggleable because I know an unrestricted system -will- create scenes that I will not be able to handle without being drawn out of the game. Perhaps I'm a small audience and 100% free unrestricted will be their pure target audience- I doubt it.. but Im not the dev. I think they'll add it with restrictions and no toggle, but perhaps some people here on the forums will get it less restrictive, and perhaps those people like myself that wouldn't be happy to see some players creations will get a fix as well.

Tl;dr I don't think you meant what you said /pet peeve.

van·i·ty = noun = Excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements.

Which in plain English means someone can wear (whatever) they want if it brings them pride, if we are going to have vanity slots then it should be that open to everything available as long as it makes you happy, if someone does not like and care for what you are wearing then tough, it is none of there business.

If i want to wear a long black plate jack boots, a bikini bottom, a AF top and a reindeer helm that should be my choice.

I just want/need to vanity is the AF styles really. I'm not there yet but that DL crap is ugly and the AF stuff is so pretty.

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Originally Posted by Kayo

Id just like it to allow us to use other gear your current class uses. Lets be honest, some of them look ...

Honestly, I wouldnt want to see anyone tanking in a bikini ....

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If you'd paid attention top my earlier post, you'd understand that bikinis technically count as tank gear. Tanks can legitimately wear all forms of cloth armour, including but not limited to the maid outfit for level 40 crafters.

This is why the vanity system cannot and should not be based upon the "normal" descriptors that define what you can wear, because tanks can wear very nearly anything - whereas casters are restricted to potato sacks and dresses

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

This is why the vanity system cannot and should not be based upon the "normal" descriptors that define what you can wear, because tanks can wear very nearly anything - whereas casters are restricted to potato sacks and dresses

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Best option is no restriction on armor type for any class. If you've got it in your inventory, it's fair game.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

Nope. The only DoM stuff with a DoM descriptor tends to be the unique gear you get from dungeons, or high end reward gear. The bulk of "caster" gear can in fact be worn by any class (Cloth martial gear also included to show how compatability flows downhill but not the other way):

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Ah yes, I never really paid attention to the crafter gear. That's quite odd.

However I am still of the opinion that tanks should not be able to show up tanking a raid boss in a cotton shirt. It's little things like this that uphold the integrity of the world. Key NPC gear design is just...well...they're key NPCs so they're special. :3

And the "downhill flow" is an entirely different problem that can be taken care of by removing the "all classes" classification and make them DoM where appropriate.

We'll just have to see how far Square Enix draws the line. I guess.

I think it'd be silly to even restrict seasonal items. If anyone says bikinis aren't lore friendly, I'll kindly remind them that they're playing Final Fantasy (a series where everyone is wearing skimpy outfits at all times), and also to stop trying to ruin everyone's fun.

Great post though, OP. You get my upvote.

I know there will likely be some restrictions to prevent immersion/lore breaking or something but considering this is a Final Fantasy game shouldn't we get a bit more freedom? I mean how many characters if FF actually have armor wearing designs. People like Cecil, Kain, Steiner and WoL are in the minority.
Watching my party beating up Titan in "street" clothes wouldn't be far off from how a normal party in Final Fantasy looks like. To me that feels a lot more Final Fantasy than the tin can wearing tank were I can't even see their face.

I think it would be funny to see a group wearing the cascadier armor beating up Ifrit, hey it's heat resistant gear. But yeah total freedom with a toggle option would prob be the best solution, everyone gets to look just like they want and anyone being annoyed by that could just turn it off, win/win.

Typically other mmo's put restrictions on vanity armor for PVP reasons.

Given SE's awesome approach to pvp here (making pvp specific abilities, and changing how some work?).. it would be easy to simply turn off the vanity functions in pvp instances (or make it so other players don't see it).

I don't think there's much difference as far as lore breaking goes for running in a dungeon in seasonal gear vs crafting gear. I wouldn't pull lore in on that, sounds to me as simply bikini prejudice.

Or just simply make it so you can choose not see others in their vanity gear... no restrictions needed.

Immersion is the worst excuse ever.

Let's prevent joining mid-dungeons because it is not realistic and it breaks immersion when someone just pops up. Let's also of course remove the ability to log out/quit/exit dungeons until they are cleared. Time limits ruins immersion so that is also cut from the game. In addition teleporting to the instance is also immersion breaking. Oh and did I mention that it is immersion breaking to redo fights like Ifrit hard? Should be a once a lifetime event. Etc.

I like my GAME working like a GAME and couldn't care if it skips parts of reality and loses the immersion.

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Originally Posted by Obreck

No, no, and double NO. This is a tiny minority view in the MMO community that should not be forced on everyone.

The Off Switch Toggle that has been suggested would be a far better solution for players that want to view other's true gear in PvP.

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It's not a better solution; the two should be separated, simple as that. You can release a "toggle" function, but what of those who aren't aware of that option? They have a severe disadvantage.

The same with going into a PvE environment, it will only lead to confusion in the party if you see some one trying to do end game content in what appears to be PvP gear. They server different roles and functions, and should not be in any way shape or form near one another.

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Originally Posted by Rakashu

It's not a better solution; the two should be separated, simple as that. You can release a "toggle" function, but what of those who aren't aware of that option? They have a severe disadvantage.

The same with going into a PvE environment, it will only lead to confusion in the party if you see some one trying to do end game content in what appears to be PvP gear. They server different roles and functions, and should not be in any way shape or form near one another.

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So everyone must have a mode based restriction forced on them because a few people haven't found the toggle button yet? How about no.

And having just came from an MMO who's min/max system made it literally impossible to tell a person's stats based on their appearance this "severe disadvantage" you talk of is argumentative at best.

Let's leave PvP out of this because it seems everyone agree, there is a material need in PvP to see the true gear people are wearing.

So now for PvE.

Toggle option is a blanket switch; but the population views each piece differently, and we all have different standards. Immersion is not an excuse but a real concern that makes Eorzea what it is: Eorzea. Just because I don't care much for immersion, doesn't mean I have the right to break the integrity of the world for others.

Reasons against allowing seasonal gear is that it is ridiculous. Reasons for is that it's our right to look how we want. I think putting forth that much is enough, and let Square Enix draw the line to define where "ridiculous" ends and where "player rights" start. Stop calling other people ridiculous, and stop accusing other people of "making excuses".

Threads don't all have to reach a conclusion. A show of opinion without attacking other people is just as valuable.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Let's leave PvP out of this because it seems everyone agree, there is a material need in PvP to see the true gear people are wearing.

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All I am arguing is that a toggle option covers PvP, thus there would be no need for a forced upon "no vanity in PvP" setup. Those who care can flip the toggle off while they PvP without forcing it on the rest of us.

We could try to agree on the way to set a poll just for curiosity
Here's my first attempt, do not vote yet, it would be wasted anyway till Obreck agrees to edit the OP.
(I had technically to put it in two parts because the first has multiple choices)

Restrictions options for Vanity appearance (multiple choice)
http://strawpoll.me/495043

No restriction options for Vanity appearance
http://strawpoll.me/495047

Now, just shout how you'd rather see it.

Edit: limited to one vote per IP

Suppose they added a toggle in the option that let's someone un-vanitize(totally not a word at all) everyone they run into only on their own clients and show their actual equipped gear?

I think it'd lay some neutral ground for some that prefer not to see others running around in bikinis in their vanity slots for the sake of immersion and whatever else.

-Edit- I definitely TL;DRed the last page of the thread ;_;

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Originally Posted by Obreck

All I am arguing is that a toggle option covers PvP, thus there would be no need for a forced upon "no vanity in PvP" setup. Those who care can flip the toggle off while they PvP without forcing it on the rest of us.

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The toggle option only creates further problems, as I mentioned it may not be known by others. This isn't a small minority we're talking here, but an overwhelming majority who do not regularly go to the forums, or may come into the game at a later point in time. I'm sorry if you feel you won't be able to be special snowflake no.892, but its the way things should be.

Both PvP and PvE require a necessary separation between the two, with neither having any influence on one or the other; this includes vanity options.

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Originally Posted by Rakashu

The toggle option only creates further problems, as I mentioned it may not be known by others. This isn't a small minority we're talking here, but an overwhelming majority who do not regularly go to the forums, or may come into the game at a later point in time. I'm sorry if you feel you won't be able to be special snowflake no.892, but its the way things should be.

Both PvP and PvE require a necessary separation between the two, with neither having any influence on one or the other; this includes vanity options.

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All you have pointed out is "some people might not be able to find the button". And yes it is a minority concern, one I could just as easy pull the people outside the forum agree and special snowflake cards on.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Immersion is the worst excuse ever.

Let's prevent joining mid-dungeons because it is not realistic and it breaks immersion when someone just pops up. Let's also of course remove the ability to log out/quit/exit dungeons until they are cleared. Time limits ruins immersion so that is also cut from the game. In addition teleporting to the instance is also immersion breaking. Oh and did I mention that it is immersion breaking to redo fights like Ifrit hard? Should be a once a lifetime event. Etc.

I like my GAME working like a GAME and couldn't care if it skips parts of reality and loses the immersion.

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I had to log in just to quote this. People throw out the immersion card thinking it means something. You are playing a game. And an online one, with repeatable content. If you want immersion, try a single player game or a book.

In the meantime, I'll be healing my groups while /dancing in my red and green bikini.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Let's leave PvP out of this because it seems everyone agree, there is a material need in PvP to see the true gear people are wearing.

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Not sure about this. In Frontline it will be awesome if we can have vanity to wear our GC uniforms or coordinate a different uniform with FC members n such. Besides, in large scale PvP, even with slower-paced mechanics like in XIV, you don't often have time to sit and think things like "Oh wait, is that AF or AF2, I can't quite make out the shade," even if you make it close enough to tell past the spell effects and general chaos of the battle. As for wolves den... once you're in, will it matter if you can see their equips? Not like you can just cut and run if they're too strong for you.

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Originally Posted by Obreck

If someone finds a standard tier (white quality) and/or low level piece of gear they like: just let them use it in the vanity system please. I've never met anyone but a developer that thought quality tier restrictions on vanity gear is a good idea.

EDIT: No Vanity in PvP = Bad Idea: There is a small part of the PvP community that swears by this as a strategy. However a full fledge ban on vanity in PvP to cater to this minority would just annoy the general community.

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I agree with these two entirely. It would be the dumbest thing I've ever seen to find that they locked lower level armor out of the vanity slot system. At that point, they might as well just remove the system :-P

Reasonable restrictions for me would be

No event gear
No AF/Relic gear

There should be absolute freedom.

I want to wear DoM stuff on my DoW's vanity slots. Why else does the Coliseum Shawl exist? :D