Should I expect griefers on a regular basis at end-game?

In fairness, you should never force your playing style on others. If some person is new to a dungeon like say, Brayflox, I let them watch cut scenes and teach them how to do bosses. It's just called general politeness. If SE wanted you to watch cut scenes at the inn, they wouldn't put them in dungeons then. Especially if the majority of the party could care less and you got one person complaining. The game's built around the story, not speed runs.

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Originally Posted by SynMaris

Cut-scene crusaders piss me off beyond belief. The summoner was right, watch that stuff in the inn on your own time. Don't hold up the instance.

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Look they only need to do it once so don't whine about it, there's nothing wrong with wanting to experience YOUR game in the correct plot order. People buy this game for the plot so they can experience the cutscenes for the first time when they're actually supposed to happen. Especially considering this is a game in it's first month of release it seems incredibly petty to have a go at people who want to play their first run as intended. And since it's in the first month, I shouldn't worry anyway, once the influx of new players dies down you'll have less people needing to do it. Also by that point most good players will probably be doing any serious runs with a free company.

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Originally Posted by PennBlackacre

Without a votekick system AND with a leaving debuff, SE seems to have created a perfect environment for griefers to get what they want. Does SE really care about this stuff or do they think that the playerbase will work itself out until only players like this person remain?

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Vote kick will lead to griefing in even worse ways, where you'll have people running AK or other high end raid and then vote kicking to bring in friends for the last boss

***holes will be ***holes. Leave and move on

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Originally Posted by SynMaris

Cut-scene crusaders piss me off beyond belief. The summoner was right, watch that stuff in the inn on your own time. Don't hold up the instance.

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Hold your damn horses and let people play the game like it was made.

You can get over yourself and wait a few moments to let people experience it.

Vote to Kick
- 100% for this; please implement this feature right away!
- Naysayers, please spare us your straw-man caricatures of bad vote-kick experiences, where you were the lone PUG member in a guild run and they kicked you seconds before the final boss dropped so you couldn't loot. There are safeguards that can be installed to prevent that. Vote-kick can be implemented responsibly.
- Yes, there will still be circumstances where a group of trolls got together and just kick out people arbitrarily, for poor reasons. This is still way less likely than a single troll/griefer randomly appearing in your group and being locked in, just to waste everyone else's time and forcing them to take the penalty for leaving.
- In order for vote-kick to be "abused," you have to: 1) Have nearly all party members group already be formed of personal contacts. 2) Of those, they all have to agree to be jerks, just to troll some poor stranger. I don't think those circumstances match up as often as some would have us believe. And they sure as heck are less likely than landing one anonymous jerk who knows he can't be kicked.

Duty Finder VS Local Only
- The people who are against cross-server grouping are 99% Tanks and Healers who will have no trouble finding a party for any content, no matter what. Of course they don't need Duty Finder. Tanks/Healers, I respect what you people do, but I also cannot emphasize enough the effects of Tank/Healer privilege. A lot of you are very nice people and skilled players, but playing your role often seems to give some of you a very warped perspective of what dungeons are "like" and what it means to queue or re-queue.
- The option to form a local group is still there, especially for Tanks/Healers.
- DPS queue time is already guaranteed to be at least 30-40 minutes, and that's with the benefits of a cross-server DF. Now, you think our search should be narrowed to only our local server, and dependent on us constantly spamming chat channels, hoping to get some attention?
- Do you think more and more MMORPGs are installing automatic group-finders for no reason? They are necessary. Without DF, I would have done maybe one or two dungeons so far, and my main story quests would be on indefinite hold.
- "Cross server destroys the community, keeping to your own server builds your reputation!" Firstly, some people are less social than others. I try to be exceedingly nice to everybody I group up with, and help others where I can -- but if access to dungeons were gated behind maintaining a Facebook-esque collection of 100-200 strangers who have nothing in common with me except server choice, I just would never get anything done. Secondly, I don't believe "server reputation" exists, beyond simply blacklisting people who are jerks. If you meet someone online and they become your friend, that's not "server rep," that is just your personal contact list.

Player Voting/Reputation System
- No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Noooooooooooo!!!!!!! No.
- It wouldn't even do anything, right away. It would take a long time for players to finally build up enough votes to get an accurate assessment of the "average" opinion, and even then it greatly depends on how many dungeons you can run.
- Some people will vote up for nice players, even if they were bad. Other people will vote bad players down, even if they were nice. Still others will vote up complete trolls and jerks, just because they were a good tank.
- As has been mentioned, trolls/griefers will abuse the system horribly. Even if you grant that these people are in the minority, it will still screw around with accuracy for a long time. And it's not even fair -- only those who have the bad luck to get the troll's "attention" will be affected. And there will be some unfortunate souls who get grouped with enough trolls that they get permanently trapped in a constant down-vote cycle, and will never be able to play with anyone else.
- Conversely, people will just up-vote their own friends and FC members, for no reason other than to give them an advantage.
- Essentially, you are trying to invent a quick-fix system that will "force people to be nice." Have you ever heard of a system like that, anywhere in life, which has been successful? Because I sure haven't.

I'm hoping that once the paywall is up, it'll weed out some of these....not quite nice types. Unfortunately, I don't truly think it will help. It's the same thing I've seen with other games that introduce LFG tools like this - no accountability empowers people to complete <censored> without worry.

I think the only way this problem can be addressed is if the GM actually be transparent and show feedback towards players' reports. That way we understand what's deemed appropriate and not.. If all we can do is report and we never know what punishment awaits for the griefer, when will they ever think about stopping? It just encourages new griefers because they think everyone gets away with it. Needs interaction between player and staff, IMO anyways.

I don't use Duty Finder, and probably never will. I would rather wait for friends then be subjected to such torture.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

I'm hoping that once the paywall is up, it'll weed out some of these....not quite nice types. Unfortunately, I don't truly think it will help. It's the same thing I've seen with other games that introduce LFG tools like this - no accountability empowers people to complete <censored> without worry.

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I'd agree, it will almost certainly get better over time, but I suspect grouping with FC/LS will take over for a lot of serious players. One good thing with this game's class system is it's really simple to restructure a party amongst friends without signing onto alts etc. I think personally my next move once I get some more experience is to find a mature group to hang out with long-term and sack off duty finder completely, or just use it for a bit of fun when bored.

Well, from all the bad eggs, there will be good eggs. I may have been fortunate, but from the about.. 100? times I used the DF, I've been on ONE bad party, to which I reported for harassment because of his use of bad words. The rest are all very friendly and helpful. Make sure you greet when you start, and thank everyone when you finish. Ask if there's anyone new and need to be briefed, ask if there's anyone japanese or english and to use the auto translate if possible. I think even by doing that you encourage people to do the same.

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Originally Posted by PennBlackacre

I just finished my story quest and queued up from HM Ifrit. We pull, then apparently 1 of the tanks didn't properly interrupt some spell that caused to ranged to have to move or something. The WHM (Lady Yunalesca on Faerie) absolutely goes nuts and then says they're going to stop healing. After we wipe, they say that someone else should leave because they don't want the leaving debuff. We tried to pull it a few more times with 1 healer while this WHM just jumped around, but it didn't work out and the group disbanded

http://i.imgur.com/G2cZaei.jpg

Without a votekick system AND with a leaving debuff, SE seems to have created a perfect environment for griefers to get what they want. Does SE really care about this stuff or do they think that the playerbase will work itself out until only players like this person remain?

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Did you at least report her for griefing?

Only lvl34, but already been stuck with some true jerks in DF.

Did my 1st Brayflox run last night. PLD tank along with a THM, WHM and me (SMN).
WHM goes AFK every 2 mins even mid fight, causing me to spam Physick and basically main heal the first mini-boss (wiped once until I realised the WHM was doing eff all).
Then the WHM realises all his gear is Broken, and strips down to a naked Roe (unpleasant experience that one!)
We finally get on to the 2nd mini-boss (the Dragon where the Gobbie brings in a 2nd one).
The WHM still fails to Cure the tank (= 1st two wipes, although he was not AFK this time, just kept spamming DoT's). Then the THM starts giving me grief for "attacking the sleeper" when he sleeps the 2nd dragon. I try to point out that the NPC Gobbie is the one attacking the 2nd mob, and suddenly the tank and the THM drop, the WHM says "Well I need to bail" and drops, and I am left wondering WTF just happened.

I admit I am far from the "best" SMN as yet, I am still learning. It was my 1st Brayflow run (I said so, asked for any guidance, was met with silence). And I was assisting (and main healing) the Tank. No AoE abilities used, no guidance, no advice, just abuse. Yet I was probably the only one in the group actually doing my job......

I suppose it is a bonus though that I am learning how much of an a$$hat the DF makes people long before I even reach Endgame!!!

for me the community gets worse after level 45...

The problem with these systems is that they will just be used by the jerks themselves. Someone not skipping the cut scene? Vote to kick them. Someone joined new and hasn't done the fight 100 times before even though the game is less than a month old? Rate them down.

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Originally Posted by Goufunaki

Snip

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Did you manage to get Misa's number for me? Judging from the chat dialogue, they seem to know how to have a good time. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Did you at least report her for griefing?

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Yeah, I did using the ingame report thing.

With the mentality, and childish antics of so many growing, a kick system would be greatly abused with egotistical ( I want it my way-or you are worthless) attitudes. It just isn't a safe bet.

Perhaps the real solution is people working on their own issues first.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

Duty Finder VS Local Only
- The people who are against cross-server grouping are 99% Tanks and Healers who will have no trouble finding a party for any content, no matter what. Of course they don't need Duty Finder. Tanks/Healers, I respect what you people do, but I also cannot emphasize enough the effects of Tank/Healer privilege. A lot of you are very nice people and skilled players, but playing your role often seems to give some of you a very warped perspective of what dungeons are "like" and what it means to queue or re-queue.
- The option to form a local group is still there, especially for Tanks/Healers.
- DPS queue time is already guaranteed to be at least 30-40 minutes, and that's with the benefits of a cross-server DF. Now, you think our search should be narrowed to only our local server, and dependent on us constantly spamming chat channels, hoping to get some attention?
- Do you think more and more MMORPGs are installing automatic group-finders for no reason? They are necessary. Without DF, I would have done maybe one or two dungeons so far, and my main story quests would be on indefinite hold.
- "Cross server destroys the community, keeping to your own server builds your reputation!" Firstly, some people are less social than others. I try to be exceedingly nice to everybody I group up with, and help others where I can -- but if access to dungeons were gated behind maintaining a Facebook-esque collection of 100-200 strangers who have nothing in common with me except server choice, I just would never get anything done. Secondly, I don't believe "server reputation" exists, beyond simply blacklisting people who are jerks. If you meet someone online and they become your friend, that's not "server rep," that is just your personal contact list.

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I love all the massive assumptions you make in this post and act as if they were facts.

If you didn't have a Duty finder you would have done more than 2 dungeons or are you alergic to interacting with people to do anything in the game? Server community does exist when the game doesn't allow you to ignore it, and there are plenty of DPS who are against the Duty finder, just because it takes longer to get a group "Arguable as we have no evidence that lacking a duty finder would make dungeon groups take 30-40 minutes to form" doesn't mean that DPS (Me) think it's the wrong way to go.

lol I got flamed for making a statement and defending myself! I did nothing wrong and do believe you should watch CS's in the Inn in private cause they get you killed in dungeons! sorry I have a different standard of playing then you do but that's how I feel! Report me all you want, I did nothing wrong lmao!

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Originally Posted by Misatox

lol I got flamed for making a statement and defending myself! I did nothing wrong and do believe you should watch CS's in the Inn in private cause they get you killed in dungeons! sorry I have a different standard of playing then you do but that's how I feel! Report me all you want, I did nothing wrong lmao!

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I don't think it would kill you to wait with everyone else till the cutscene's over. Just show a little courtesy to those who want to experience the game as it happens.

never said anything about me being upset about having to wait! I said you should watch back in the Inn! he made a big deal out of something lol I was fine and laughing the whole dungeon! I could care less what you do but Im not afraid to give my opinion!

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Originally Posted by Misatox

lol I got flamed for making a statement and defending myself! I did nothing wrong and do believe you should watch CS's in the Inn in private cause they get you killed in dungeons! sorry I have a different standard of playing then you do but that's how I feel! Report me all you want, I did nothing wrong lmao!

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Actually they don't. You are immune to damage in a cutscene, at least in dungeons. Last Boss of CM, one BLM sat in the CS without progressing the text. She called him as the target and the adds never hurt him.

Also, your opinion may be to have people skip them, but the game does not support that opinion as it does watching them the first time. They said in 1.0 and in 2.0, that the Unending Journey in your inn room is to RE-watch cutscenes. So if you ask if they can skip and they refuse, that's the end of it. Period.

again lmao, that's your opinion! not mine! anyone and everyone can skip! its your choice to watch, I agree and never said you where wrong for doing so lol! simply that you "should" skip them to not hold everyone up sense you have to option

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Originally Posted by Misatox

never said anything about me being upset about having to wait! I said you should watch back in the Inn! he made a big deal out of something lol I was fine and laughing the whole dungeon! I could care less what you do but Im not afraid to give my opinion!

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You excessive use of exclamation points, reassurance of how happy you where, and the fact that you had the capacity to care less proves to me your iron backed security.

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Originally Posted by Misatox

again lmao, that's your opinion! not mine! anyone and everyone can skip! its your choice to watch, I agree and never said you where wrong for doing so lol! simply that you "should" skip them to not hold everyone up sense you have to option

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Just by saying should, you are trying to push your view.

You have to knowingly opt out of a cutscene, the default choice is to watch. SE would have done it differently if they wanted it done differently.

lmao I always use "!" ^^ ask anyone that knows me! anyway lmao this is mute.. ive already been branded the "bad" guy by people who know nothing about me, other then a SS of me getting pissed about someone trolling me in a dungeon run! anyway you all have a nice day! play your dungeons the way you want I could care less.. was just making a statement that made some of you butthurt! really quite funny if you ask me!

btw the reason to skip is there to use how ever you want it! SE didn't have some "Grand Design" for it like your stating (Ispano)

I don't think you're a "bad guy".
I just think you need to lay off the coffee.

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Originally Posted by Misatox

btw the reason to skip is there to use how ever you want it! SE didn't have some "Grand Design" for it like your stating (Ispano)

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There's a reaosn you have to opt out vs choosing before hand or having to opt into watching the cutscene. They are part of the story, and SE wants people to experience the story. The option to skip is indeed there, but you have to DO something to use it. It's not the default option.

Telling people they should, is trying to push your view. Asking them if they could skip to make it faster, is completely different. But that's not what you did.

omg dude its the same thing, its just in how you perceive it! other then that your just trolling this topic! we get your point and nobody (Even myself) has disagreed with you on it! so be done with it yo! lmfao! how about 4 more "!!!!" for ya!

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Originally Posted by Misatox

omg dude its the same thing, its just in how you perceive it! other then that your just trolling this topic! we get your point and nobody (Even myself) has disagreed with you on it! so be done with it yo! lmfao! how about 4 more "!!!!" for ya!

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You told them they should, you didn't ask. Telling and asking, are not the same thing.

yep, ok ^_< you win the battle of the last word! one more post and you win!

It would be hard to please everyone on this matter. Some believe if you want cutscenes, watch with your guild mates. Some believe if you want speed run, run with your guild mates. In the end of the day it's just about who can tolerate who.. As long as one of the other lower their head a little in agreement then it should be all good.

I personally am in the view that cutscenes should be allowed to be watched, regardless of the party unless the agreement is set prior to the run and everyone has the same opinion about it.

If you are in a dungeon with me and wish to watch the cutscenes feel free to watch the cutscenes. I see no reason to make someone skip them just so Ican go through the run faster. That is what guild runs are for if you are farming tomestones.

omg people lmfao learn to read! I said you should skip them lmao! if I had such a major problem with it I would have left the dungeon lol

Omg all your posts are giving me a headache -.- learn some dam sentence structure and coherence. I pitty anyone in a party with you.

Yes because a vote-kick system won't get abused at all. If you want to really see griefers then give them even more tools to play their "games" with.

The random group nature of the DF needs to come with a warning of "use at own risk" because your agreeing to whoever you get in your group.
Don't whine if they want to watch cutscenes or are new to that particular dungeon because you chose not to join a FC and do content with them. Or I don't know actually talk to people on your server and form some groups where you get to know the people there and their capabilities. Remember MMO doesn't stand for Me, Me Only.

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Originally Posted by Azadross

Yes because a vote-kick system won't get abused at all. If you want to really see griefers then give them even more tools to play their "games" with.

The random group nature of the DF needs to come with a warning of "use at own risk" because your agreeing to whoever you get in your group.
Don't whine if they want to watch cutscenes or are new to that particular dungeon because you chose not to join a FC and do content with them. Or I don't know actually talk to people on your server and form some groups where you get to know the people there and their capabilities. Remember MMO doesn't stand for Me, Me Only.

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Problem is they seem to focusing all their attention on the duty finder first, then FC/LS/friend groups 2nd. Kind of ass backwards, but SE really wants duty finder to be good and viable and something everyone should use for everything.

I've seen griefers in premade groups too. It makes me sad because 1.0 did not seem this way. I'm hoping it dies down after a few months when the jerks realize they can't get very far without cooperating with other people... OOOOOR they'll join a linkshell with jerky people like them and they can be jerks together and leave us pleasant folk alone.

By the way, OP... Did you expect any better from a person named Lady Yunalesca? If FFX is any indication, she was probably going to be a misguided... uhm, jerk, anyway. ;P

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Originally Posted by SynMaris

Cut-scene crusaders piss me off beyond belief. The summoner was right, watch that stuff in the inn on your own time. Don't hold up the instance.

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Incorrect! Feel free to watch your CS, if ppl dont like partying with newbies they should get out of the DF and get a FC.

Usually when I get a jerk in an instance ill just report them for harassment and let the swift sword of justice be upon them!