"Fix" Speed Runs? How about fixing the real issue?

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Originally Posted by ninesunz

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I think the problem is the mobs grant no incentive and are face rollable. At least the bosses grant a challenge, however small it is.

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Originally Posted by Boyahd

Oh, let's not forget that FFXI actually gave you incentive to kill trash mobs in dungeon-like settings. It's strange that a game made by the same company ELEVEN YEARS AGO has the right idea in comparison. If anything, this is a hardcore regression that makes me wonder if Yoshi_P only played Korean MMOs, the worst of them all.

Edit: Oh, with a little dash of Guild Wars 2, as it's obvious this is where he pulled the FATE system from. I hope there's an interview with him admitting this as it would be rather disgusting if he doesn't even mention the inspiration.

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GW2 didn't come up with it. It was actually first implemented in Warhammer.

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Originally Posted by velrek2013

I think the problem is the mobs grant no incentive and are face rollable. At least the bosses grant a challenge, however small it is.

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Face rollable for you. There's a lot of tanks out there that have a lot of problems on trash, let alone mechanics like dodging bad red stuff. Trash still provides a barrier and a learning incentive to players. Especially the few that rerolled tank and skipped lower level dungeons.

you cant fix the real issue : people want gear faster than they are expected to get them.
SE expect you to spend X hour in donjon farming your stuff+ Y hour in other activities to pay repair
player want to cut X and totally remove Y.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

How about fixing the REAL issue:

We, the "ELITE SLS*" (*Special Little Snowflakes) want the ultimate endgame gear RIGHT NOW with LITTLE OR NO EFFORT INVOLVED -- also we don't want EVERYONE to have it, that would make us less special...

......

If SE does this, it will ensure that the ELITE SLS players will feel super elite (and super special) a long time to come.

If SE doesn't do this, the game is doomed to fail.

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/snicker :-)

I hope they just get mad and go back to WoW. Ugh. So entitled.

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Originally Posted by Noata

Wow the entitlement here.... I am struggling to think of a game that actually gave something worht while for trash mobs... I mean the whole reason we called them trash mobs... was due to trashy loot. Are you guys serious? I mean I get that you were TOTALLY exploiting the game and they fixed it. They reduced repair costs. so go kill trash mobs. I do not get at all where your coming from

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I -hate- that word entitlement. Every other freaking game out there does trash right. Yes they'r trash mobs but they really really need to drop something worthwhile. This is how battleclasses make money. Let the robe wearers drop rare cloth or something. Let the demons drop good horns for high level crafting. The eyes and succubi can drop leather from their wings. I don't understand why this is hard >.< They put all these mats for sale for tomestones, they should have made them small drop chances from trash.

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Originally Posted by Zzyn

/snicker :-)

I hope they just get mad and go back to WoW. Ugh. So entitled.

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There is is again x.x

Its not about rushing endgame gear. Its about making the stuff along the way worth it. Battle classes already have no real way to make money, this would be a huge opportunity for them.

Edit: Just so you know, I'm not a big supporter of speed runs. I just hate all the elitism in here. Trash mobs should be mildly rewarding. THey shouldn't drop ilvl 90 gear, but come on guys.

This is starting to get very tiring, upsetting, and gamebreaking for some of us. I just had to leave a dungeon because some douchebags where insisting in speedrunning through Cutter's Cry (thus making me die if I didn't want to do so)... in a duty finder group. Now I have to deal with the 15 min. lock because some people are that "nice".

And no, it's not just that I don't like to speedrun, but that I told them that I needed some of the mobs for the GC hunting log (as did two other members of the group, as they were new to that dungeon). Talk about pissing people, right? So it's not that trash mobs don't reward anything, as they were rewarding something in this case and even then every one of them wanted to speedrun it. I know that not everyone is like that and that most of you would really kill them if they gave something, but what I'm saying is that even if trash would give gil or anything else the problem would still persist. Some people want everything NOW, and they don't care about the rest.

I think the problem stems from the fact that people will be doing these dungeons hundreds, if not thousands of times. There needs to be more incentive to killing the trash. Spirit bonding is something i'm considering since i'm not getting exp/gil killing stuff.

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Originally Posted by Boyahd

It's funny how your post only strengthens my point. Here, let me point out how you tripped over your own self:

-maybe some Land L items from killing them
So you're admitting that trash mobs DO drop something. See, at least there's mobs in dungeons that CAN drop something of use in EQ2. FFXIV has NONE so far.

-GW2 you farm things like leather from them
Leather, among a vast number of different crafting materials, which are used to craft items that are pretty good for end-game.

(cont.)

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no tripping here, I explained how you get a limited reward from trash mobs, When you kill trash mobs in FFXIV you get something. so how is it not similar?
also repair bills are less, also, in those games, if you do really bad in the dungeon you could walk away with a giant negative balance, Dying and repairing gear in Vindictus or EQ2 could become costly and easily outweigh any money made from a dungeon. Once again, trash mobs still drop something of use compared to FFXIV.the difference is you easily replace the currency in these games so the negative cost is less apparent. same for GW2, a couple deaths and you lost any profit you would have made from a run unless you get a useful piece of loot.

its not broken so either play the game, or leave it. sorry you cant exploit dungeons anymore.

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Originally Posted by Tuldin

sounds like a money management issue. just because the user sucks at finance doesn't mean the game is broken. learn ways to make money other than brute force trash pharm, and learn better ways to mitigate your repair costs.

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Says the whm that doesn't take even 1/3rd the repair costs of a tank. Clearing AK costs me 3k for 1 run ... Speed runs cost me 600g. Yep that's what it was all about money management.

You want us to kill the trash I'm more then happy but give us something to compensate. Gil, white gear drops that I can spiritbond for materia, tomes, something ...

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Originally Posted by Noata

sorry you cant exploit dungeons anymore.

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Is this your first MMO? Speed runs were never an exploit otherwise half the playerbase would be banned right now. Just the same in WoW and every other MMO and even the devs will tell you. The player base will always find ways to do things easier or faster that they did not think of. It's not the player bases fault that the method exsisted and they used what the game gave them to accomplish something. Many world firsts in WoW were done by using these tactics and it's the reason that right after a major content patch servers would drop for emergency maintenances to try to stop guilds from using the tactics and get a fix in. Clever use of game mechanics is NOT an exploit

Just have a reward at the end of a dungeon for clearing all mobs.

When you enter a dungeon it should pop up in the quest tracker saying 0/45 monsters slain, when you complete this you get a reward screen with a selection of gil or some aetherial gear maybe.

Personally I feel its fine as it is, but the whiners will whine.

This thread is serious, isn't it...
Should we just like... Line the bosses up in single file and they can just... give you the loot?
How do you want this to work? For that matter, do you even want to play the game?

There are definitely flaws with gil in this game, and numerous other problems that I'm sure people will complain about given enough time.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

How about fixing the REAL issue:

We, the "ELITE SLS*" (*Special Little Snowflakes) want the ultimate endgame gear RIGHT NOW with LITTLE OR NO EFFORT INVOLVED -- also we don't want EVERYONE to have it, that would make us less special.

...


If SE does this, it will ensure that the ELITE SLS players will feel super elite (and super special) a long time to come.

If SE doesn't do this, the game is doomed to fail.

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I love to join your 1337 FC. Where do I sign up?:cool:

Why do people constantly keep assuming that others are upset about speed running being removed? I never cared about speed running at all, but you have to be especially blind to realize there is absolutely no real incentive to kill trash mobs. As someone mentioned before in this thread, they don't have to drop amazingly rare items, but at least something that can be worthwhile. You have to remember that these instances have to be done dozens upon dozens of times to get anything useful out of them. The dungeon mechanic being used right now is one that helped heralded the downfall of countless MMOs, and I find it rather disappointing that SE hasn't realized it yet.

Oh, and for those wondering and unable to read Japanese, the JP General is going ballistic over these changes too. It's not just us.

Perhaps killing a squad earns you a permanent refresh piece of the LB bar?

I know for the Demon Wall you need a LB bar ready if not in a geared group (for the gnats), perhaps killing the trash beforehand would permanently place a % in the bar after each death. So you do the run say earn 50% LB refresh- you use LB on the wall, you wipe, you revive with 50% LB bar (refresh only happening on wipes of course, to prevent wipe LBing trash mobs should only refresh on boss wipes).

Wouldn't really fix it in all occasions (no need for LB in castrum), but at least in that scenario (Demon wall with pug/ok geared people) I might possibly suggest killing the trash/exploring all areas.

I suppose I partly suggest this just because I think building the LB bar if you wipe is quite silly, can't kill the mob so you just sit there and clutch cure and stun stuff (which doesn't feel good, just like "look how bad we can play and get rewarded for it~!").

Also something that was sort of in 1.0 they could bring back is killing more / certain monsters increases the chests / reward at the end. So the best farming strategy would be one where you kill everything as fast as possible (rather than skip everything fast as possible). More chests and or more stones (say the boss drops 25 and completing a pack of trash mobs drops 5 but you only get the trash mob stones by completing the dungeon).



So.. less LB farming, better end dungeon rewards. Together I could see the more serious loot/farm dungeon runs including more of the dungeon then.


I hope they dont make every fight required though, I like sneaking around monsters and I don't like fighting stuff without a good reason- while "getting to the boss" is a reason I don't feel it is a good one (for every fight at least). Though, assuring better rewards/smoother fights would be.



Also.. Hi forums, been gone a while- the game is fun, more fun than the forums... ^^

Every king has an army, if you want his treasure, he's not gonna give it to you just like that. You have months to play this game, leave some place to the fantasy...

Speed runs? What's wrong with them. I've seen quite a few dungeons post 50 where you can just walk behind the trash because they agro on site and can't see you. We skipped a ton of stuff on the end game stroy missions, cleared one in 30 mins. And imo 100 tombs for a 30 min run is pretty decent.

I mean after 50, why kill the trash if you dont need to? No one needs exp, and all they do is dmg your gear and make you spend more on repairs when your done. If you can skip the trash, why not skip them and save time to make time for another run.

No incentive? Getting to the boss not one? I don't even think you guys know what you want anymore. When you guys leave...bah who am I kidding? You guys aren't leaving. You cry, cry, threaten to quit, LIKE WE GIVE A DAM, then continue you playing. Am I in the ball park on that one?

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Originally Posted by Ryios

Speed runs? What's wrong with them. I've seen quite a few dungeons post 50 where you can just walk behind the trash because they agro on site and can't see you. We skipped a ton of stuff on the end game stroy missions, cleared one in 30 mins. And imo 100 tombs for a 30 min run is pretty decent.

I mean after 50, why kill the trash if you don't need to? No one needs exp, and all they do is dmg your gear and make you spend more on repairs when your done. If you can skip the trash, why not skip them and save time to make time for another run.

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In this case its not about why kill or not kill, its about what is intended. everything is working as intended till it is fixed. and this patch targeted an exploit. so its intended for you to clear them. that is all

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Originally Posted by teh_nam3less

No incentive? Getting to the boss not one? I don't even think you guys know what you want anymore. When you guys leave...bah who am I kidding? You guys aren't leaving. You cry, cry, threaten to quit, LIKE WE GIVE A DAM, then continue you playing. Am I in the ball park on that one?

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When trash mobs start dropping items that you can share with guildies or sell to crafters, remember to come back here and thank the 'whiners'. Speed running was never the problem, it was a symptom of the awful trash and durability system. Treating the symptom does nothing to help in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

How about fixing the REAL issue:

We, the "ELITE SLS*" (*Special Little Snowflakes) want the ultimate endgame gear RIGHT NOW with LITTLE OR NO EFFORT INVOLVED -- also we don't want EVERYONE to have it, that would make us less special.

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The real issue is people who think left and right are the same direction, and that blue and white are the same color, pop in your group for a 50min none speed run DF and make you regret you logged in this morning. And making it seem that the 30min penalty is a better alternative to commuting /wrists.

I agree that rewards are misbalanced. You spend hours on a dungeon and quite often get nothing to cover the cost of repairs, or you join a FATE and kill 20 monsters at your level but only get 1 gil and no experience. Makes FATES and Dungeons not worth doing.

Also, getting to the boss is often not the reason for a speed run. Used to do speed runs for players doing quests and crafters needing items. And, of course, the achievement. But once you have completed a dungeon the only reason to go back is for crafting items.

I would be fine with it if they didn't add more mobs. If they kept it at the original amount I feel like people would be taking it a lot better. But increasing the number of mobs and removing the speed run ability seems excessive.

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Originally Posted by Shigaru

When trash mobs start dropping items that you can share with guildies or sell to crafters, remember to come back here and thank the 'whiners'. Speed running was never the problem, it was a symptom of the awful trash and durability system. Treating the symptom does nothing to help in the long run.

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So what else should SE hand you? A lv 50 character? Hell, let's let each group of mobs drop tomes.

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Originally Posted by Esk

I actually think there are a lot of options for better dungeons (and reasons to go into them and keep some trash around too).
Lots of awesome stuff

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I agree, I wish dungeons were unique and fun like FFXI dungeons and not generic trash - > boss - > loot. Kind of sad they went that direction.

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Originally Posted by teh_nam3less

So what else should SE hand you? A lv 50 character? Hell, let's let each group of mobs drop tomes.

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Why not?

If they reduce the amount the boss drops so the dungeon isnt producing more than expected (and make sure tomes are only rewarded on win)- would promote people to kill all the trash packs they could find (even ones that don't lead to the boss)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Why not?

If they reduce the amount the boss drops so the dungeon isnt producing more than expected (and make sure tomes are only rewarded on win)- would promote people to kill all the trash packs they could find (even ones that don't lead to the boss)

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Looking back at it...I am a genius.

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Originally Posted by Noata

They reduced repair costs. so go kill trash mobs. I do not get at all where your coming from

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Yep... that was definitely the reason people were skipping trash... repair costs. Now that they lowered repair cost, no one will EVER skip the trash in Amdapor Keep again. *Sarcasm off*

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

I agree, I wish dungeons were unique and fun like FFXI dungeons and not generic trash - > boss - > loot. Kind of sad they went that direction.

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Likewise. That's kind of what's holding my friends and I from really enjoying the endgame content at this point. We wish the loot system was a little more rewarding for all players as opposed to only rewarding one to three people each run. For Ifrit runs or whatever primal hard bosses, for example, we're still hoping they'd at least add one more loot box to make two treasure coffers available at the end of run. Makes it more worthwhile for every players time.

There's already Trash loot, it's called the coffers that give you allagan pieces and Aetherial loot.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

I agree, I wish dungeons were unique and fun like FFXI dungeons and not generic trash - > boss - > loot. Kind of sad they went that direction.

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Finally, someone is starting to see where the true problem lies. Many of you are so set on defending this painfully generic setup with absolutely no room for improvement or uniqueness. No one is asking high level gear to be handed to them on a silver platter. What we are asking for is to put more purpose into the dungeons.

The first monthly payment can't come fast enough. Hopefully it will weed out most of these "I want everything fast and now" people.
I'm sure SE loves putting time into dungeons for people to speed run them in 15-20 mins. Yes, 15-20... that's how fast some people
on my server were doing Amdapor Keep. Most of them had no idea there were even coffers in the dungeon between the entrance
and first boss... -_-

You want fast, easy, epic loot every 5 minutes, ways to make mega fast cash in little time? Go to WoW. Their arms are wide open.

We won't miss you, I promise.

I dont see why this is such a big issue now when they been doing it since 1.0 in AV and other 1.0 dungeons. people just need to stop being the game police and find a group that wants to run they way that you want to run. But i guess cry babies get want they want...

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Originally Posted by Kletian

There's already Trash loot, it's called the coffers that give you allagan pieces and Aetherial loot.

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Get to 50 and you'll see. In AK you get a few allagan BRONZE pieces, the same ones you get at level 20, and you get random green loot. Greens that usually no one needs if they have been farming for any amount of time and greens that you can't break in materia. Instead you can turn them in for seals that @50 you don't need for anything other then crafting/gathering scrolls or barding if you care about that.

This so called "trash loot" from the coffers you describe is good for people leveling in the 20-30 range but not for 50's. The allagan pieces should be at least gold and there should more of them in the instance

Sorry to hear that, sounds like at least the allagan pieces should update. I can get silvers from level 30 quests after all.

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Originally Posted by Boyahd

Vindictus, Mabinogi, EQOA, EQ2, Aion, Allods, GW2 and the list goes on.

It's not that you're struggling to think of a game, it's just that you don't give a rat's ass. It's an archaic system that many MMOs are starting to move away from. Stop defending bullshit with more bullshit.

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And here i need to say, that in fact, all the above listed games but Mabinogi are complete trash.
Not to mention, all they do is baby care.

Go to the dungeon, beat the minions, get to the boss, get the reward. That is the way things are, if you don`t like it, you can also go and keep playing Grind Wars 2.

Eh, the bronze pieces are fine, ive been making more in allagan pieces than the repair costs easily, Im up almost 4900 today with a little over 2k for repair costs gone

They didn't nerf repair bills at all. It now costs even more to run AK because you beat the crap out of your gear clearing all the trash. SE logic. Introduce dailies or something to go along with your repair cost "nerf"..........

I think what all of them are asking for is some sort of "leg odometer" in the dungeons. As you walk, you are awarded gil! So if you wipe your party on the trash mobs that you always ran past, but now have to fight them, you can just run in circles until your gil counter has enough to cover your repairs. That would make all of you happy, right? why should you have to run from the entrance to the first boss without being paid?

The hardcore players are the ones that do it for the challenge without complaint. All I hear is a bunch of casuals whining about trash monsters not being profitable.