Warrior is OP! Paladin is OP! Make one tank class and be done with it....

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Originally Posted by Duelle

... if a guy wants to run as a WAR for his whole tanking career through the life of FFXIV he damn well has the right to do so and the game should accomodate that.

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This is exactly the mentality I was talking about, no, the game should not accommodate that. You should NOT be able to do whatever you want regardless of your class. If you want to be the absolute tankiest tank you can be, well then your only option is to roll pld, because warrior will never have equal defense; they may receive buffs in some other ways which improve their survivability, but if your definition of what makes a tank the "best" tank is defense then it will always be pld, they were intentionally designed to be that way. As many have said, warriors CAN be main tanks right now, the only content they can't is the content that NOBODY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN YET.

There should be times when it's advantageous to use one over the other, or one for a specific situation.

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Originally Posted by Gilcris

Now, thus far, most people (sans the most voracious of self-disparaging Marauder tryhards) seem to concede Warriors can actually still tank anything they're intended to tank just fine. Instead, a week or two after the game's release, the "Tank Roles" section of the forum is saturated with people raging that they can't skip a tier of gear with the more offensively-flavored tank and stand on perfectly even footing with the defensively-flavored tank in content that is missing the segeue to it?

Do continue.

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maybe you're just so thick that you missed the part where people are saying that they want to play the game, that's nothing to be proud of son

like i'll be honest

im gonna complete my relic and then im going to go back to playing wow because despite the complaining about endgame in this game, there is none. you get two level 50 dungeons, a long ass time consuming grind for gear you cant do top end progression in (as far as the information provided by warriors in this forum goes anyway), 3 boss encounters, and a raid that the lead developer thinks less than 100 people are going to complete before next patch.

but yeah let's just take a dump on all the people that have similar interests to your own

hell im gonna hop on the bandwagon with this guy and point and laugh at all of you for complaining about practically nothing because even if you do get to bcob, you're not going to complete it and you're going to ragequit over not being able to put a group together to complete it. Hell let's say you dont even want to do bcob what is there left to do in the game for a player who wants endgame?

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Paladin tanks are the premier tanks in this game. They have vastly superior

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whats that

you might break a nail if you dont wear your gauntlets or whine just as loudly as warriors if you weren't flavor of the month?

sorry i thought you were just saying something about being a badass

if you were a real badass you'd have cleared bcob with 2 warriors by now, telling people to l2p and to get on your level

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Originally Posted by Delorean

Blablabla

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Since when did they give you a golden class-specific mount to shine on our great community of tanks?

I don't understand why this "off tank" label is considered inferior. An off tank has equal if not sometimes more responsibility in other MMOs, the only difference between the two is tanking responsibility. There were times I would be told to off tank and time to be main, heck there were times that we ran content enough time that we used to switch between main and off, but never did I think I was inferior because I was an off tank. Some fights would require higher HP other times it requires dmg mitigation.

Some fights that I remember, fighting 3 bosses and having to keep them separated. Main tanks takes 2 and off takes 1, the key to not wipe is dependent on the off tank pulling 1 boss of the main after about 45 seconds and then having the main tank take it back in like 15-30 secs. At no point was one tank lesser than the other. Telling one tank to be main and off only meant who does what in the beginning.

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Originally Posted by EvanderStoneguard

I don't understand why this "off tank" label is considered inferior. An off tank has equal if not sometimes more responsibility in other MMOs, the only difference between the two is tanking responsibility.

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Agreed. It's an ego thing. A lot of Warriors I've come in contact with have a need to show that they are viable. It's like...bro. This is not a pissing contest, let's just kill the boss and get loot together.

I wonder if the healing board theres a topic of "OMG CNJ/WHM are better tank healers than ARC/SCH" and that ARC/SCH are only raid healers.

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Originally Posted by EvanderStoneguard

I wonder if the healing board theres a topic of "OMG CNJ/WHM are better tank healers than ARC/SCH" and that ARC/SCH are only raid healers.

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Probably not, because you need both in a raid, and the combined utility of both is always useful when compared to stacking.

On the other hand, "off tank" isn't a role. You may call it a position but the role is still tank. The problem is that PAL can off tank just as easily if not more easily than WAR. They tend to have good if not better AOE damage and threat between circle of scorn and flash. On top of that they naturally get Provoke, which is also extremely useful for picking up adds as it's off the GCD.

The fact that if a warrior is going to be dedicated to off-tanking (i.e. tanking mobs which are not up 100% of the time) they have to completely rely on 2 PLD skills in order to do it something should strike you with that. Particularly if you are for some reason claiming WAR is a BETTER offtank. Because they absolutely are not.

So what does that leave WAR with as a niche? If their only niche is to be a tank when there are no PLD around that's not a niche at all. It's simply being inferior.

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I don't understand why this "off tank" label is considered inferior.

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Because there's almost no need for an off-tank in this game. 90% of the current content gives you no use for a second tank, and it can even be argued that warrior's aren't in fact the better off-tanks due to a general lack of tankiness. Besides, since when was "off-tank" a valid role and something that it's reasonable to devote an entire class to? It just doesn't make sense. The classes need to be equally good, and it should be possible to accomplish that without making them identical.

Please, call me naive.

I feel that if the developers designed the game with two different classes as tank, then the game can be completed with either class.

I don't see one as "better" then the other. Each has benefits and limitations.

Isn't it for us, the players, to learn the pluses and minuses of the character we are using and develop tactics to exploit the benefits and mitigate the weaknesses?

Isn't that what this is about? Isn't that the point of rolling a character in the first place?

On day one, you make a choice. End game is the consequence of that choice. All classes/jobs/whatever can complete the game, but whether you are successful or not is based on if you learned "how to play the character".

Am I not correct? If so, I don't see the point of this discussion.

Oh and thanks SE for the server fixes! I can now play!

Love,

Masha

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Originally Posted by Araye

Am I not correct? If so, I don't see the point of this discussion.

Oh and thanks SE for the server fixes! I can now play!

Love,

Masha

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The point of the discussion is whether or not both classes are able to complete the game like in your second line.

To anyone who thinks the developers intend for any class to be able to do anything: http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielta...ax-prime-2013/

Yoshi:
"Looking at the general public we see a lot of players don’t like having to choose one thing and not be able to change that. They want to have the option to do anything at all times, whereas myself personally I like it when you make a decision and you have to live with that decision, that’s like real life.

But it seems like most gamers are not like me and they want to be able to do everything at every single time. So having some kind of customization system we want to listen to what the community has to say and expand from that.

We believe that customization is not when you can choose anything at any time and I don’t want to do something like that."

Based on this I think it's safe to conclude that Yoshi likes the idea of certain classes being required for specific situations.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Probably not, because you need both in a raid, and the combined utility of both is always useful when compared to stacking.

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Why are you able to apply this logic to whm/sch but not pld/war?

To quote someone from another thread:

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

I've been paired up with PLDs the majority of End Game dungeons as a WAR. We work amazingly well together. I don't mind letting him tank the bosses while I take all the adds since overpower destroys flash. All I do is drop defiance and DPS the boss and defiance + Infuriate when adds pop.

But on Ifrit I was paired up with a PLD so I was main tank. No wipe, he stunned when he needed, I kept hate, stayed alive. Healers had an alright time with it all since I kept my wrath up constantly and used Inner Beast after spikes. Easy!

These two roles were meant to work together.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

This is exactly the mentality I was talking about, no, the game should not accommodate that. You should NOT be able to do whatever you want regardless of your class.

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All this tells me is that you don't care about player choice where it can exist to make people not only want to take up a role that is not DPS, but within the framwork of a class they enjoy. The main differences between two tanks should be mechanics while being capable of performing to the same level. That way if you end up with two WARs or two PLDs (or, if SE listens to my suggestion, two SAMs) in a party, your chances of success do not drastically decrease or increase based on the classes doing the tanking, but rather the skill level of the players behind both tanks.

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they may receive buffs in some other ways which improve their survivability, but if your definition of what makes a tank the "best" tank is defense then it will always be pld, they were intentionally designed to be that way.

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You're jumping to an odd conclusion there. As I've mentioned numerous times before, I wouldn't expect WAR to have the same level of mitigation as a PLD. I'd expect it to have some mitigation (definitely more than what they currently have with Foresight) complimented by self-heals and maybe the seemingly-abandoned parry mechanics they had in 1.0.

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Originally Posted by EvanderStoneguard

I wonder if the healing board theres a topic of "OMG CNJ/WHM are better tank healers than ARC/SCH" and that ARC/SCH are only raid healers.

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You'd probably see more on that if SCH wasn't able to hold its own as a healer. Reason you're not hearing much aside from "SCH needs a small buff" when I'm not spraypainting "let SCH get Leeches at lv30 instead of making them wait till lv40" is because SCH so far has been able to measure up.

Again, we won't get much more until the jobs' performance is measured in large raids, though seeing a SCH can main heal an 8-man raid by themselves while the second healer cries in a corner, I think they'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielta...ax-prime-2013/

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Here's the full question, as you've blatantly taken it out of context:

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Question: Are there plans for differentiating high level characters outside of gear? Is there some kind of customization that sets players of the same class apart from one another?

Yoshi-P: We have been thinking about thinks like that and where we’re going to go from our current level cap design. Looking at the general public we see a lot of players don’t like having to choose one thing and not be able to change that. They want to have the option to do anything at all times, whereas myself personally I like it when you make a decision and you have to live with that decision, that’s like real life.

But it seems like most gamers are not like me and they want to be able to do everything at every single time. So having some kind of customization system we want to listen to what the community has to say and expand from that.

We believe that customization is not when you can choose anything at any time and I don’t want to do something like that. You have a trap where you have the first person that goes through and says ‘this skill path is the best one’ and then everyone is the same again because they all take that path. And then you have players that take other paths and then you have fighting about which is the best one so we just have to be careful with that when considering options.

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Do you realize that the question leans more towards abilities and stat builds rather than class design and intents? Yoshida himself says he likes stuff working along the lines of making a choice and sticking to it (not unlike advanced classes in SWTOR or his original proposal for getting the PLD soul on GLA but being locked out of getting a job like DRK). Seeing that stat allocations are class-bound rather than job-bound, Yoshi-P in part got his wish.

He even gives examples in the context of skill paths (which points to secondary progression a la EQ's Alternative Advancement, FFXI's Merits and to a much lesser extent, WoW's talent trees).

There was nothing out of context about his quote (I only shortened it due to these forums restrictions :P), the point of it was that he doesn't think anyone should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want. Which means I don't think he is going to allow the design team to intentionally make content where it doesn't matter one way or the other what class you have tanking. There will be fights where it's advantageous to use a WAR, and others where it will be PLD. And the classes themselves have not been designed in a way that makes them 100% interchangeable.

<- Rolled both to 50, AF2 on War, DL on Paladin. Problem solved for me.

Can't wait till ninja comes out, if they are indeed confirmed to be tanks. Hopefully they open up a lot of cross class skills to warrior. And imo it wouldn't make since for ninja to cross class with paladin. Paladin's are Holy White Knights that should get more from WHM than they currently do, like much larger cures. Warrior should get something from Ninja, Like Shadows. The fact that paladin can only cross cure 1 is laughable. They should be able to cross all the way to cure III at least.

And warrior should just be like "Utsusemi: Ichi" I care not what ability is coming, as it shall not hit me. So say you get 3 shadows, and they are wearing off and your craps on cooldown. Well you should have 5 stacks of wrath by then and ready to throw out multiple inner beasts, and cooldowns till you recast your shadows.

Personally for me I feel PLD attack should be equal to it's defence. A tiny buff to PLD raw damage would be cool.
Also I feel they since they specialise in close combat (coming from GLD) shouldn't they be a little stronger?
I feel kinda short changed that Paladin didn't get some more CON/WHM abilities would of liked PLD to get Holy and all Cure II & III being "Divine" and all maybe or even bring back the Ability 'Enlight' from FFXI.