The attitude certain tanks have....

All I ever asked for was don't pull for me. That's my job. =/ Otherwise do whatever the heck you want- put me on autofollow, try to beat my threat just for the lulz, autoattack for the entire time...

But I've given up on the Holy Trinity. Just thought i'd pop in here and make sure tanks are still the most hatred/loved spec. :D

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I would appreciate it if DDs focused on my marks and if everyone didn't run away if they accidently pull something. Running does nothing but lead the monster out of my range. Stay close enough that I can shield lob/provoke it back please.

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Hahaha noob tank :p j/k j/k I agree with you, would be better if you can just stay close to the tanks and we'll try out best to try and get the hate from that mob.
Damn you're on Sarga too... need to look for you in-game lol

I try to explain stuff in my party for the dungeons I learned/know the strategy for, only problem I got is damn auto-translate doesn't work for me... I'm playing on JP language settings on NA/EU server. So far it's fun tanking though, got different types of DD out there, wife is playing Healer so we always discuss what to do to try and get the party going if they are new to XIV/MMO, but like you sometimes I wish they can look at that big # mark on top of the mobs name and attack the same mob we're fighting lol.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I would appreciate it if DDs focused on my marks and if everyone didn't run away if they accidently pull something. Running does nothing but lead the monster out of my range. Stay close enough that I can shield lob/provoke it back please.

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+1 For using DDs

Frankly it's the groups attitude that needs to change.

When I insist that all the loot should belong to Norb, they scoff. I'm the biggest and strongest, of course I should be the one to carry everything. You think those tiny Lalafellian arms can hold even a fraction of what I can and still keep up a good pace? Yet every time, without fail, the group wants to "roll" and split the loot up "evenly." It's selfish I tell you.

Oh, and you let the healer die ONE time because your hot pocket was done during a pull and you go afk to get it and they'll never let you hear the end of it. Makes me not want to even PUG anymore.

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Originally Posted by Tokochan

I hate running into tanks with an over inflated ego... I had one that refused to pull off me (the healer) because he said I shouldn't be pulling threat anyway... -_-

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If I was a leader and saw that, I would have sooo wanted to booted him from the party... -_-

I laughed at what Norb said, but it is the group that needs to change.

Like it or not, the tank is the leader. Even if he doesn't know the instance, he's still the leader. He might need directions but he still decides when and how to pull. If you want to be the leader, roll a tank. :)

On the remarks about marking ur targets I have personably found that unless ur a new player to mmo's it can kinda cause some issues with DD's trying to do there job with crowd control and dps damage on targets. Ask before a dungeon starts and if everyone has experience in mmo's then don't bother with marking the targets. Healers and dps players should know who to hit and who not to buy switching there targets after they deal crowd controls on mobs the tank has pulled. If u change targets till ur on the one loosing hp then u are on ten same target to attack as the tank. (If you are in a proper party that is). If you cants attack the right targets without the marks then they should ask for marks and if u feel like running when I aggro something I won't waste my healing skill to save u while I'm doing dps. That right is reserved only if healer is having some issues with healing enough on tank or on daps and healer who do their jobs correctly.

I've had issues with every job, you have Tanks who lose their minds when things don't go their way, DD's to just stand there and take abuse rather then move around and avoid attacks. Healers who only focus on curing with no Esuna or anything, it goes on and on. The common theme I've seen so far, if people are willing to talk with a plan in mind, you win 99% of the time. The minute ANYONE gets upset, it's over.

lol tanks can't do anything right!

Just a quick note, but Cutter's Cry is more of a healer's test than any other dungeon I've done so far. If you're on the ball on Leeches/Esuna, things will go smoothly. The tank can easily tell if the healer is just mass-cure'ing instead of getting rid of the nasty DoTs and debuffs (Sandworm's Cyclone, Chimera's Ram Voice, Chimera's Dragon Voice's Paralysis, Chimera's Heavy, Slime's Poisons...)

So if the tank rage quits after a few wipes, perhaps you can investigate the reason behind the wipes to begin with. And that comes from a main healer -- we have to admit we can be as much at fault as the tank or the DPS can be.

Perhaps the healer was on his game, and the tank was just in the wrong. But perhaps he also ran this dungeon multiple times, and having access to instant queue, figured his time was better spent simply queuing again and hope for a better healer rather than teaching this one how to handle things.

Wow, as a tank, I feel really bad that people have had such bad experiences.

A couple things I make sure to do:
First, if it is my first time in an instance, I tell the group "Hi! This is my first time, so bare with me." Usually, I find 1 or 2 others that are new.
Second, upon reaching a boss pass gate, I ask "Any tips for this boss?".
Third, mark your targets!
Fourth, keep your eyes open during battle. For peels and adds.

Next, macros. You have to use them as a tank.
My survivability and pulling have improved so much since I have dialed them in.
Here is 1 that I use almost every fight.

Macro 1 - "Pull!"
/micon "Flash"
/ac "Flash" <t>
/wait .25
/ac "Provoke" <t>
/wait .25
/ac "Rampart" <me>
/wait .25
/ac "Convalescence" <me>
/wait .25
/ac "Awareness" <me>
/wait .25
/ac "Sentinel" <me>
/wait .25
/echo Recast Pull!

If people stood to the side at the start of a dungeon or just before a fight and asked if everyone/anyone knows what to do then a lot of silly ragequits could be avoided. I joined a Darkhold run for the first time the other day, and as always I joined in progress. My party informed me that I was the 3rd tank to join them, the previous 2 ragequit during the first 2 bosses. When I entered we had 40mins to do the remainder of the dungeon and I had no idea what to do (aside from a brief text guide I skimmed over beforehand).
We had one shot at the final boss and we did it with 1:26 left on the clock, the amount of joy we shared was immense.

To any fellow tanks out there, please don't ragequit like those did before I went in to that dungeon. Communication is key to success, and be confident in the face of danger! :)

To anyone I may party with in the years to come, if I'm doing something wrong or not optimal, please let me know in a kindly manner and I'll be more than happy to change my methods to make it smoother for us all.

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Originally Posted by Hoglan

Wow, as a tank, I feel really bad that people have had such bad experiences.

A couple things I make sure to do:
First, if it is my first time in an instance, I tell the group "Hi! This is my first time, so bare with me." Usually, I find 1 or 2 others that are new.
Second, upon reaching a boss pass gate, I ask "Any tips for this boss?".
Third, mark your targets!
Fourth, keep your eyes open during battle. For peels and adds.

Next, macros. You have to use them as a tank.
My survivability and pulling have improved so much since I have dialed them in.
Here is 1 that I use almost every fight.

Macro 1 - "Pull!"
/micon "Flash"
/ac "Flash" <t>
/wait .25
/ac "Provoke" <me>
/wait .25
/ac "Rampart" <me>
/wait .25
/ac "Convalescence" <me>
/wait .25
/ac "Awareness" <me>
/wait .25
/ac "Sentinel" <me>
/wait .25
/echo Recast Pull!

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Don't encourage that macro, reacting to the situation is more important than...whatever you think that is doing for you. For instance, if the healer is casting a raise, that's a good time to Sentinel.

Also, there's no reason to be using provoke like that, save provoke for if someone pulls hate and I've never had anyone pull hate off me in a single target fight.

Stacking some abilties is good. A standard thing for tanking is that you want steadier damage taken, so abilties like Rampart and Sentinel are good all on their own, but you want want to stack Awareness and Convalescence simply because Convalescence since neither are your strongest CDs.

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Originally Posted by Uriahnool

As someone new to tanking I would appreciate it if people offered me advice and helped me out during battles. *snip*

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I certainly count myself as no expert, but if I notice that the tank could be doing something different/better that might help with enmity, I usually try to offer up advice in as kind a way as possible. The only difficult thing with this is that no one can read tone in text, so if someone reads it as me being a know-it-all, talking them down, or something derisive/condescending, it's hard to recover from that. So I try to avoid it unless I think it will definitely help, and I also watch the tank to see if he/she is doing something that I could stand to learn from. It's definitely a two-way street, imo.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

...snip...

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First, thanks for the feedback. It's always helpful to hear how other tanks roll.

Second, regarding Sentinel, do you mean once I am raised I should cast Sentinel?
Makes sense, though, usually you get raised at the healers position, I haven't been in a lot of situations where the healer is aggro'd when he's raised me. It's usually the DPS.
But I get where you are coming from.

With provoke I am usually establishing threat and want to hit the top of the list anyway. Otherwise, I am pulling adds or peels to me that are attacking someone with higher threat than me. Which provoke quickly trumps. I get the whole situational aspect of the skill. But I have found that when I need it I need it immediately after I flash.

Not trying to argue, just providing a bit more information as to why I do what I do.
I'll take a closer look at it based on your feedback, thanks again!

Also, sorry for hijacking the thread...

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Originally Posted by Hoglan

First, thanks for the feedback. It's always helpful to hear how other tanks roll.

Second, regarding Sentinel, do you mean once I am raised I should cast Sentinel?

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Lol, no. I mean that if the healer is raising someone, that's a good time to use a cooldown, like Sentinel, or Rampart, or anything. Or if the healer is kiting something, or you know the healer is moving, like to eat morbol fruit.

But yeah, if you did get raised, it's good to use a cooldown right before you rush back into battle, for the obvious reasons.

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With provoke I am usually establishing threat and want to hit the top of the list anyway. Otherwise, I am pulling adds or peels to me that are attacking someone with higher threat than me. Which provoke quickly trumps. I get the whole situational aspect of the skill. But I have found that when I need it I need it immediately after I flash.

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Odd, I don't.. I won't argue, maybe your latency is worse. I shield lob on the run, this puts me a full GCD ahead of dps, flash if there's more than one mob, and then start the rage of halone rotation.

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Not trying to argue, just providing a bit more information as to why I do what I do.

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Not at all, you've been very courteous.

I'll take a closer look at it based on your feedback, thanks again!

I could be wrong, but I don't think provoke generates any special amount of enmity, it merely matches the enmity of the highest target on the list.

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Originally Posted by Hoglan

Second, regarding Sentinel, do you mean once I am raised I should cast Sentinel?
Makes sense, though, usually you get raised at the healers position, I haven't been in a lot of situations where the healer is aggro'd when he's raised me. It's usually the DPS.
But I get where you are coming from.

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No, he means that if the healer starts casting Raise on another party member you should Sentinel, because Raise has a long cast time and the healer won't be able to heal you during that period, so you should mitigate as much damage as possible.

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With provoke I am usually establishing threat and want to hit the top of the list anyway. Otherwise, I am pulling adds or peels to me that are attacking someone with higher threat than me. Which provoke quickly trumps. I get the whole situational aspect of the skill. But I have found that when I need it I need it immediately after I flash.

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Provoke does not establish threat. It's an emergency skill that puts you at the top of the mob's threat list for a VERY short window of time. It's only purpose is to stop a mob from getting to the healer once you've lost aggro on it. It's useless as a way to establish threat. Here's a good protocol for a 3 mob pull:

-Shield Toss main target
-Flash
-Savage blade combo main target
-Flash (the blind debuff will have come off by the time you use Savage blade, allowing you to use it again)
-Blade of Halcyon secondary target
-Savage blade combo tertiary target
-Flash
-Blade of Halcyon main target

Also, and this isn't directed at you, but many tanks think they can spam Flash for group threat. You cannot. While the Blind debuff is up from Flash, another use of Flash will have no effect. You need to wait until the Blind debuff is gone before Flash will apply enmity again. That's why you weave it in with your Enmity combo (it doesn't reset the combo... you can continue to Blade of Halcyon even after using it after Savage Blade).


On Topic:

I never leave instances, no matter how many times people wipe. If people are wiping, that simply means they don't know how the mechanics work or don't know their class well enough. Both problems can be solved by teaching them. A good example is Cutter. A group I did it with wiped on Chimera. I explained that Blue meant to stay back when he roared, and Violet meant to get in close when he roared. After that, we passed no problem.

Some people respond poorly to advice, and some people are harsh when giving advice. If people just take care to be polite to one another, you can usually get through with no problems. Unfortunately, polite is something that's been dying in MMOs in recent years. :(

Provoke puts you 1 point above the person with the highest enmity. Using it in a pull, does nothing.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Also, and this isn't directed at you, but many tanks think they can spam Flash for group threat. You cannot. While the Blind debuff is up from Flash, another use of Flash will have no effect. You need to wait until the Blind debuff is gone before Flash will apply enmity again. That's why you weave it in with your Enmity combo (it doesn't reset the combo... you can continue to Blade of Halcyon even after using it after Savage Blade).

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Mark me as one of those that didn't know that. Thanks for the tip!
I'll be sure to be aware of that in my future adventures.

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Originally Posted by Acyd

Provoke puts you 1 point above the person with the highest enmity. Using it in a pull, does nothing.

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I think you misunderstood what I am doing.
If you look at the macro, Shield Lob is not in it.
Shield Lob is button #1 for me, and I use it to pull, and also cycle mobs and shield lob each of them to establish threat.
WHEN I need provoke is when things are "getting away" from me, and I need the mob off of my party member so I can shield lob it back under my control.

Apologies if I was not clear about that.

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Originally Posted by Hoglan

I think you misunderstood what I am doing.
If you look at the macro, Shield Lob is not in it.
Shield Lob is button #1 for me, and I use it to pull, and also cycle mobs and shield lob each of them to establish threat.
WHEN I need provoke is when things are "getting away" from me, and I need it off of my party member so I can shield lob it back under my control.
Apologies if I was not clear about that.

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Ah my bad then. It just looks like provoke is in the middle of that pull macro is all i was getting at.

Hey! No problem at all. Thanks for keeping me honest. :-)