Is Warrior viable for end game contents?

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

Tanking content that you are not geared for: Go with a paladin
Tanking content that you are over geared for: Go with a warrior
Tanking content that you are correctly geared for: Pick whatever one you really want to...

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And I hope they stick with this...homogenization destroys the fun of a lot of games/MMOs. Yeah it sucks when you have to sit on the side and watch someone else excel...but when you get your moment to shine that's even better.

Not to mention that in this game you can just level up a paladin or w/e else you want. Does your guild only have warrior tanks and they need a pally because they are stuck? Go pally and help them out, once its on farm and you have gear, go back to warrior. Same basic gear setup. No need to have to logout to alts, get geared up on them etc. If you're geared on your warrior, you have most of the gear you'll need on your pally.

Satrina- are you the Satrina who made the WoW add on in Vanilla and helped do a lot of the parsing with crushing blows?

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Tanking content that you are not geared for: Go with a paladin
Tanking content that you are over geared for: Go with a warrior
Tanking content that you are correctly geared for: Pick whatever one you really want to...

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The problem with this is that it basically indicates that the paladin is a superior tank, so why would anyone ever pick a warrior even if they're able to do it once their gear is good enough? How will warriors ever even get that gear if every single guild has to start out using paladins because it's the tank of choice for entry-level raid content? Then by the time you've cleared that for a while, the guild will have well-geared paladins and undergeared warriors. Hard to justify swapping in warriors, then; and they'll never get overgeared, so being viable when overgeared is irrelevant. The bottom line is that paladin is an objectively better tank class in pretty near every possible way, so the warriors are left on the sidelines even in content they can technically tank. This is already happening. More and more guilds are completely dropping warriors from their rosters because paladins are simply so much better, even if they're not always the only viable tank. There's no place where a warrior is needed, but it's becoming increasingly obvious that there are quite a few places where a warrior isn't wanted.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

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It is a question of preference

in other words it is easier to be a bad paladin but playing a decent warrior can go far (there is a lot of skill play on warrior tank as if you don't understand your job you will most likely die vs being a pally)

TBH play what you like

I dunno, maybe I just keep running into scrub Glads via the Duty Finder. Almost all of them that got into a tank discussion as far as what warriors are capable of all seemed to want to jump ship and level up a mar. to become a warrior instead.

What's brought it up is how easy I was making it look, with just the 50 class / GC gear. Pally's would go MT and get roflstomped by like Ultima Weapon, or HM Ifrit. I do it, and the healers were DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

It is a question of preference

in other words it is easier to be a bad paladin but playing a decent warrior can go far (there is a lot of skill play on warrior tank as if you don't understand your job you will most likely die vs being a pally)

TBH play what you like

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It's not a question of preference if one class is clearly better than the other to the point where only one of them is viable for part of the endgame content. How the hell can that be a question of preference? Christ.

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

No, good players will play classes they are capable and that arnt horribly gimp. That doesn't mean they will flock to FoTM classes in any MMO. Usually the bad players flock to whatever is deemed "best (x) for (x)"

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Good players can play all classes and just switch to whatever is the "best" at what they are supposed to do. That's how it is done in World First Guilds...and they are not bad players, they just min-max for exactly those reasons...they play the Tank class that is best at tanking at whatever given moment/patch...

If warriors keep running around complaining that they are too weak, even if it isn't true, then warriors will ruin their own chances at tanking, because nobody will take them based on rumors.

I think everyone is missing the main thing. It really depends on the player. I had several Ifrit HM runs with PALs who couldn't time erruption. I have cleared Ifrit HM to gear FC members more times with double warrior rotating, than I have with Paladins. In MY EXPERIENCE, people who roll warriors know what they are doing more often. I'm not talking queue with FC duo WAR, I'm talking Duty Finder with 1-2 FC and picking up an extra warrior, explaining to him I'll mark 1 and interrupt, then mark 2 and he interrupts. Duty Finder Warriors can pick it up quicker than Duty Finder Paladins who just need to time their 1 skill themselves.

Could be luck, but it's just my experience.

*Edit - On a side note my FC currently has Warrior tanking BCoB

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

all classes and just switch to whatever is the "best"

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I would say that good players and World First types are different but intermingled as well. By default people going for World First are indeed good players, but due to their method of playing, they will go for w/e they can to get any upperhand on a fight that's possible no matter the cost of time. On the other hand, good players who are just good at games in general but not striving for world firsts will play w/e they want and make the most of it, and actually some will prefer the lesser classes just to prove how good they are. I knew great arena players who played terrible specs to 2200+ just to prove they could. I played WW monk up to 2190 in WoW just because it was fun, it was horribly gimp, but it was fun!

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*Edit - On a side note my FC currently has Warrior tanking BCoB

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How is it going? Everyone seems to be doom and gloom over the 1st boss as a Warrior tank.

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

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How is it going? Everyone seems to be doom and gloom over the 1st boss as a Warrior tank.

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Well the first go was last night, they made it to the snake boss with 35 minutes left, then they all went AFK on streak (i logged out of game) till 18 minutes. I'm assuming they were checking strategies. They got to the split phase but healer died right before so tank died to 2nd snake and they wiped. I'm sure they'll get it down sometime this week.

One thing for you all to consider is that warriors may be worse at some fights but better at others. People have pointed out some fights with heavy constant damage, mentioning that paladin is better suited for this. Yet if a team encounters a hard DPS check, you may see them using a warrior tank because they can handle the (more difficult) healing and need the boost to pass the hurdle using the gear they have. Another example is that some encounters will have infrequent huge spikes of damage, and it becomes a challenge to fill the tank back up in time for the next spike. Warriors may be well suited for this type of encounter as well.

I did speak with someone who is working on turn 2 in coil. He said that paladin does have an advantage for the first turn, but that warrior in his opinion is much stronger in the second one

I'm well behind all you folks, but have experience being specifically designated a "Raid Leader". Here's some math:

EX: Over 15 hits for 200 dmg each once every second, let's use really simple numbers: (ADD TANKING)
WAR: Takes 100% of the damage for all 15 hits, taking 3000 damage /15 seconds = 200 DPS
PLD: Takes 80% of the damage for all 15 hits, taking 2400 damage / 15 seconds = 160 DPS
So the PLD takes 40 less damage per second.

Now:
EX: 2 hits for 2000 damage each over 5 seconds: (BOSS TANKING)
WAR: Takes 100% of the damage, meaning 4000 dmg / 5 seconds = 800 DPS
PLD: Takes 80% of the damage, meaning 3200 dmg / 5 seconds = 640 DPS
That's a 160 DPS difference here. Obviously, if you are a healer, the 40dps difference isn't going to make you sweat, but the 160 dps difference is significant.

That different will become trivial with more healing power/gear. Without other considerations, PLD is superior MT, WAR superior OT.

What that doesn't take in to account is the 15% healing we get from damage. So if you add that in to the equation the difference is not huge.

But all of this talk has me concerned, I dropped my BLM to level this character and I am really enjoying the class so far. But should I be concerned with the classes ability to tank late game?

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

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Sorry but I have to totally disagree with you here.

I can get Inner Beast up (without infuriate) about every 20 seconds at the most. I get on average 1.2k HP from that. I can Crit for 2k and then I can use berserk to boost that.

When I don't use Inner Beast I've got 15% bonus on heals.

Plus I've got second wind and bloodbath (most minor heals we have)

You completely left that out of your "Math" so it's basically all flawed.

EDIT: I forgot Thrill of Battle which is 20% addition to max HP plus 20% recovered. Some WARs are rocking 7k HP. Even 8k!

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Here's some math:

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And you're completely ignoring the fact that WAR gets a 15% increase to all healing received. At 200 DPS, a WAR only requires 173.9 HPS (that is, HPS that anyone else would require). At 800 DPS, a WAR would require 695.7. Yes, it's still more than what a PAL requires, but it's not where near as large as you make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

And you're completely ignoring the fact that WAR gets a 15% increase to all healing received. At 200 DPS, a WAR only requires 173.9 HPS (that is, HPS that anyone else would require). At 800 DPS, a WAR would require 695.7. Yes, it's still more than what a PAL requires, but it's not where near as large as you make it out to be.

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You are forgetting that the 15% healing requires Wrath stacks. Using Inner Beast eliminates the healing bonus. Based on rotations posted, the average value of the bonus healing is going to be around 8%.

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Originally Posted by Sebastien

Warriors may be well suited for this type of encounter as well.

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Why? The numbers are very straightforward. The Paladin is equal to the Warrior in surviving burst damage / one rounding. The Paladin has a definitive advantage against high sustained damage. The Paladin has a definitive advantage in terms of cooldowns- both in terms of efficiency and emergency. The Paladin has a very definitive advantage in terms of healer efficiency.

While there is a lot of talk about Warrior self-healing, Paladins can use Stoneskin which has some significant advantages over Inner Beast.

You could create encounters that would favor a Warrior over a Paladin, but it would take some creativity.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

You are forgetting that the 15% healing requires Wrath stacks. Using Inner Beast eliminates the healing bonus. Based on rotations posted, the average value of the bonus healing is going to be around 8%.

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Actually, it's only 7% (I've done the math and can direct you to it if you're curious). On top of that, you don't want to use Inner Beast. It's a net healing loss thanks to the loss of the +healing. You'll get more out of the 8% extra that your healers are doing than the pittance that you'll get out of Inner Beast. Inner Beast should only ever be used as an emergency heal when either you'd be dead in the time it would take for a heal to get to you or you've got no healers around (they're dead or you're soloing).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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Very valid points everyone - As I said I'm not end-game, so I don't have a huge grasp on WAR healing abilities. HOWEVER - a WAR cannot heal themselves if they are dead. If you go below 0 hp, extra healing power does you absolutely no good at all. PLDs can use Blood frenzy, can drop combos and cure themselves for 250pts every 3 seconds, can use convalescence which increases healing on them by a substantial amount, etc, etc, etc. Please notice the "All other factors remaining constant" disclaimer from earlier. PLDs may not get as many abilities as WARs do to make those little differences, but they get enough. My math was not "Flawed" (sorry, I had to also sardonically use quotes in my response to you as my ego now feels like a puppy that got pistol whipped), it simply ignored factors that I was not willing to do back-end math to calculate, and that I felt were negated by other factors.

Love these forums, and I'm not being sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Actually, it's only 7% (I've done the math and can direct you to it if you're curious). On top of that, you don't want to use Inner Beast. It's a net healing loss thanks to the loss of the +healing. You'll get more out of the 8% extra that your healers are doing than the pittance that you'll get out of Inner Beast. Inner Beast should only ever be used as an emergency heal when either you'd be dead in the time it would take for a heal to get to you or you've got no healers around (they're dead or you're soloing).

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...56#post1224556

I calculated break points for Inner Beast usage and for Paladin advantage in this thread. It would have been more comprehensive if not for character limitations. I'd be interested in the 7%. My number was somewhere around 7.8%. It's not really enough of a discrepancy to matter though.

Just tanked titan last night as a WAR was told by two of my healers I was no harder or if I was they couldn't really notice it then to heal then equally geared pld.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Actually, it's only 7% (I've done the math and can direct you to it if you're curious). On top of that, you don't want to use Inner Beast. It's a net healing loss thanks to the loss of the +healing. You'll get more out of the 8% extra that your healers are doing than the pittance that you'll get out of Inner Beast. Inner Beast should only ever be used as an emergency heal when either you'd be dead in the time it would take for a heal to get to you or you've got no healers around (they're dead or you're soloing).

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Lets say on average inner beast heals you for 1200... (counting berserk/maim/storms' eye/and random crits) if you are giving up and average of 8% healing for lets say 20 seconds (starting at 0% and working up to 15% by 17.5 seconds or so) That means a healer would have to heal you for 15,000 in 17.5-20 secs for it to be NOT worth using (making it pretty much always worth using in 4 man groups, and depending on boss in 8 man parties it can go either way, it will be pretty worthless in 24 man raids if the trend continues like they did from 4 to 8 man). This once again points out how a warrior gets worse and worse in comparison to a paladin as group sizes get bigger and bosses hit harder. The paladin mitigation always stays at the same % no matter the amount hes getting hit for, where as the harder the warrior is getting hit the lower his mitigation becomes (due to a lot of the mitigation warriors have is in the form of self heals). The only way i see them being able to fix this without changing the class to much is just tacking on a base 10% healing to the defiance buff. This would still allow a cost/benefit to innerbeast and all other wrath using skills but would give the warrior equal mitigation from their tank buff while all stacks are up (25% HP and 25% healing (10% passive + 15% from stacks)). This seems like a no brainer fix and i really hope they implement something to this effect.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

Why? The numbers are very straightforward.

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What I can tell you is that people who are clearing Coil have told me that both are fine and that Warrior is stronger in some cases. So the numbers are not so straightforward.

The majority of people complaining that Warriors are unsuitable are actually .. Warriors. And mostly under-leveled ones worried about what the theory predicts rather than their experience.

I'm not saying Warriors are perfect - I don't know. But the pattern of the complaints is telling. I'll rely on what I heard from the progression teams that are working on the endgame content. For now, that information is: warriors are fine.

Isn't inner beast mostly a waste, as you're more than likely just going to waste heals as overhealing? If they converted it to a shield...We'd be in a much better place. Also baking in the +healing to defiance. Paladin's don't have to give up their defense buff to use their signature abilities, why should warriors?

Paladins are obviously going to be better at the moment, their mitigation ability favors worse gear. But better healer and better tank gear would get you more returns on the +healing from defiance.

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Originally Posted by Ahlen

But better healer and better tank gear would get you more returns on the +healing from defiance.

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Better healing from defiance vs paladins? If that is what you are saying then that is not correct.. 20% damage reduction is equal to having 25% hp and 25% healing, warriors only get 25% HP and at best 15% healing no amount of gear will change that to favor warriors over paladins. Oh and the +% healing that warriors do get from defiance dose not even apply to the warriors own self-heals.

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Originally Posted by Sebastien

What I can tell you is that people who are clearing Coil have told me that both are fine and that Warrior is stronger in some cases. So the numbers are not so straightforward.

The majority of people complaining that Warriors are unsuitable are actually .. Warriors. And mostly under-leveled ones worried about what the theory predicts rather than their experience.

I'm not saying Warriors are perfect - I don't know. But the pattern of the complaints is telling. I'll rely on what I heard from the progression teams that are working on the endgame content. For now, that information is: warriors are fine.

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This is the trouble with theorycrafting a vacuum. Your math can be 100% sound...but in actual practice there are more variables to account for then just the basic math for what works "better". groups find ways to work around issues and use their brains to come up with strategies.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Please notice the "All other factors remaining constant" disclaimer from earlier.

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The problem is that you can't gauge performance of a WAR and PAL looking *only* at those factors because there are other factors that don't remain constant. A WAR gets 25% additional max hp, which provides the same effective hit points as the PAL's 20% damage reduction. Given the same gear, a hit on a PAL is going to do the same percentage of a PAL's max hp as it does to a WAR's. The only difference is that a heal on a WAR is going to restore 92% of the same percentage of max hp that a PAL would receive (1.15/1.25).

Also, WAR gets more out of Bloodbath, not only because it lasts longer, but because they actually deal more damage and, as such, heal for more. Any time you attempt to bring up PAL self heals, it means *nothing* compared to WAR self heals. WAR just gets *so much more*. Of course, PAL gets a shield for blocking, so it balances out (at least, self-healing v. blocking).

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I'd be interested in the 7%. My number was somewhere around 7.8%.

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The basic gist of it is that you can use Inner Beast once every 22.5 seconds: 1 GCD for Inner Beast, 3 for a 3 combo (gain 2 stacks), and 2 seconds for a 2 combo (gain 1 stack). That adds up to 9 GCDs (1 + 3 + 3 + 2) or 22.5 seconds.

As to the 7%, Wrath stacks aren't evenly over time. They're gained at specific intervals: you spend 2.5 seconds with 0%, 2.5 seconds with 3%, 5 seconds with 6%, etc. Furthermore, you lose your Wrath stacks as soon as you use Inner Beast, so that's another GCD with 0 stacks. When you average out these values ((0+3+6+6+9+12+12+15+0)/9), you get 7%.

To be cost effective, Inner Beast needs to provide at least 8% of the total (baseline) healing of a healer over the course of 22.5 seconds, or, effectively, 80% more than what they can/will do in a single GCD. Since it's pretty much *never* that big (assuming we're discussing GCD use in a burst healing scenario such as you would need to be in to use Inner Beast without wasting it on overheal), Inner Beast is only useful as an emergency heal or when you've got Infuriate up to give you back those stacks immediately.

Without immediate Infuriate use, any use of Inner Beast outside of solo play (wherein healing received doesn't matter) is either a break even, at best, in a 4 man party (it will very often end up being a net loss unless you've got a bad healer *and* Berserk active; remember, as burst healing, unless you're going to benefit from *all* of it, you're wasting the healing, so you better be pretty low before even thinking about it, especially if a healer is there casting on you) or an explicit, and very substantial, loss of effective healing in an 8 man party.

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

groups find ways to work around issues and use their brains to come up with strategies.

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This^ However, what we are talking about is which class is naturally more suited to do something. Naturally, and mechanically, it seems PLDs are attuned to take massive amounts of damage. If they couldn't do that better than WARs, then what the hell good would they be? With about 1/2 the DPS, no AE dmg, their only AE aggro ability worth crap being usable by WARs, they would just be a pointless class if they couldn't do SOMETHING better.

Obviously the intention is to have PLDs be the "Main Tanks" for bosses, but obviously they left enough free-play in the space between the tanks so that either could substitute for the other. Play what class you have the most fun with, not which class is going to min/max and make you "teh most ubar, d00d!1" If you're good, you can work around what your class lacks.

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

groups find ways to work around issues and use their brains to come up with strategies.

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In the first turn of the coil last night on the ADS adds, our Warrior was getting one shot with 5-6k Crits. We swapped tanking positions and I took the ADS adds and was only getting hit for 2k. We downed it with ease this way, but if we didn't have 2 bards for the silence this wouldn't have been possible and would have took many more attempts trying to get lucky with his damage taken. SE needs to give wars some love.

Side note our warrior is fully geared in Darklight with AF2 body and relic weapon at 7k health so he isn't lacking in gear.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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I see the difference. 7.8% assumes finish a combo rather than breaking it with IB and extended to 10 cooldowns with and additional 2.5 seconds at 15% bonus healing.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I see the difference. 7.8% assumes finish a combo rather than breaking it with IB and extended to 10 cooldowns with and additional 2.5 seconds at 15% bonus healing.

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Inner Beast doesn't break combos so you can use it indiscriminately.

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Originally Posted by Awake

WAR are viable end game as MT.The question will be if your grop will want you over a PLD.

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He is correct, a war most likely will have more hp BUt they get spike dmg a lot more it seems. Pally will have lower hp and some spike but its more manageable with a pally then a war. I mean to say its easier on a healer to heal a pally over a war no matter how much hp the war has.

WAR can easily take hits per hit just as well as a PLD.

Boss hits War for 1000 DMG
Boss will hit PLD for 800 dmg

Healer will now Cast a Heal (last i saw cure 1 at 800) on a PLD
same Cure 1 on a WAR is 920.

There is a 80 Damage Difference... That is basically nothing.

As the WAR gets more Gear, his Inner beast will heal for more and more. HP's get much much higher.

as a PLD gets more Gear, his static Reduction... doesn't go anywhere.

As healers get more gear.. the 15% boost from WAR gets bigger and Bigger.

SCH healing a WAR makes an even bigger gap.
600 Heal 600 Shield off the single target.

On a pld..effectively 1200 Healed/Shielded.
On a war they get a double benefit of a 690 heal, 690 Shield - 1380 Total.

Now the WAR is mitigating more damage then a PLD due to increasing the heal AND shield of a SCH.


Pretty much.. Fresh at 50, PLD is better.
By the time Both have Full Darklight, WAR is ahead.. and will get farther and farther ahead as they get more gear.

A Good WAR does not spam Inner Beast, they use it as a cooldown.

Bosses usually have an attack that hits for 2-3k every x amount of seconds, i have yet to not have inner beast back up by the time the next one goes.

Ifrit for Example.

Lets go with 2600 DMG off his breath weapon.
PLD has taken 2080 dmg.


On my WAR i have 6,600 HP is all and most PLD i see have 4200 ish in equal gear.

He is at Half Life, i still have 4,000 HP left.

I took 520 DMG more then the PLD.

If a "Good WAR" watches for the healers to land their heal, then pop inner beast.. you just gave them a 15% boost so the 800 Cure 1 goes to a 920 heal.

PLD - Took 2080 DMG Cure 1 he is down to 1280 Dmg taken
WAR Took 2600 DMG Cure 1 hes is down to 1680 DMG taken.

WAR Now pops inner beast i can heal for 1k easy non Crit.

PLD - Took 2080 DMG Cure 1 he is down to 1280 Dmg taken
WAR -Took 2600 DMG Cure 1 heis down to 680 DMG taken


WAR is now ahead.


PLD Cooldowns are usually used after the fact, there are not many mobs that you need to save that "Big Cool down" for. Its mostly same attacks over and over and over.


WAR uses cooldowns to heal self after the hit.
PLD uses cooldowns to slow dmg down after the hit or before.

They balance out...

Both Tanks can Main Tank, Both Tanks can off tank.


Use Both in all roles.

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A Good WAR does not spam Inner Beast, they use it as a cooldown.

Bosses usually have an attack that hits for 2-3k every x amount of seconds, i have yet to not have inner beast back up by the time the next one goes.

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Bingo! That's what I used for Garuda and Ifrit.... I know my Inner Beast heals fro 900-1100 none crit and my hp currently is 5500.

As soon as My HP is ~2500 or Lower, I use it to get back up to 75% with healer topping me off. IF group ahs scholar and WHITE MAGE... i'm immediately topped off.

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Originally Posted by Kiaris

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Your math is all wrong. You've ignored the damage reduction component of Shield Oath when convenient, and you've pretended that WAR will always have 15% bonus heals.

Yes, a Scholar Adloquium will be 1380 heals+shield for the WAR and 1200 for the PAL. But 1200 for the pal mitigates more monster damage than 1380 does for the WAR because of the 20% damage reduction they receive. If a mob was doing 500 DPS, 1200 heal/shield would last 3 seconds on a Paladin. It would last 2.76 seconds on a WAR.

Should be obvious: a WAR is not "ahead" of a paladin in such a situation.

Second: how the hell is a 4200 HP PAL the "equivalent" of a 6600 HP WAR? WAR gets 25% bonus HP, not 50%. The equivalent of a 4200 PAL is a 5250 HP WAR.

Finally, you're basically contradicting yourself saying that inner beast heal is a cooldown, but you're comparing it to a PAL that isn't using any cooldowns. Yeah, a WAR using his cooldowns will be mitigating more damage than a PAL just sitting there and doing nothing defensive.

And that's to say nothing of the fact that block is a secondary form of passive mitigation.

There is no situation where a warrior will be "ahead" of a Paladin in terms of mitigation/heals/damage. Your analysis is entirely bereft of thought or accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Kiaris

Now the WAR is mitigating more damage then a PLD due to increasing the heal AND shield of a SCH.

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That is horribly flawed logic for people and only makes sense for people that don't know math. You keep forgetting to factor in how, regardless of how much better gear gets, the PAL will *still* take 20% less damage than a WAR. Yes, the WAR will get healed for 690 while a PAL will get healed for only 600, but, when hit by an attack that deals 690 damage, a WAR takes the full amount whereas a PAL takes only 552.

WAR will *not* get better as gear gets better. As you get more vit, the amount of hp that a WAR gets compared to a PAL is going to get larger, but, since a PAL's hp is *also* going to get larger, by 80% of what a WAR is going to get, it's *still* a break even. As healers get better gear, the amount of hp that a WAR gets compared to a PAL is going to get larger, but, since the PAL is taking 20% less damage, the PAL is *still* going to be better off.

Anyone that thinks that there is somehow some magical explanation for WAR suddenly becoming better as their gear gets better doesn't understand math.

If you honestly don't see WAR getting better with gear, your just a PLD in Denial.

PLD vs WAR base reduction goes up exactly the same as we get gear. Are you saying your 20% reduction from stance goes up as you get gear ?

I didn't think so. The heal form Inner beast and the 15% bonus does get better and better as healers heal for more per heal, all your saying is.. well you have more HP.. so they have more to heal.... yea that may be.. but mobs aren't hitting harder as i increase my HP and as healers are healing me for more and more as they get gear.


All people are looking at is 20% reduction and calling it done. I thought that until i played the class, and WAR can do it just as good.

WAR's that spam inner beast are bad, its a cooldown.. that you get back every 17.5 seconds if you time it good.

PLD - Lower HP 20% Reduction
WAR +25% HP, 15% healing Increase on them - can blow the increase for a 1k+ heal with 17.5 sec time on getting the 15% back.


So far, i build my 5 charges, set on them, and use them to negate spike dmg, and easily have the 5 charges back up before something else happens, ive also had zero issues tanking anything as the main tank.

The only issue i have with the Job is Bloodbath/Steel Cyclone/Holmgang


Both classes need a few tweaks, but overall.. they are both fine at doing maintank.

So Be in Denial all you want if you please :P i've had no issues, and my healers have no complaints so far.


Enjoy being a Stunbot :P

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Originally Posted by Kiaris

If you honestly don't see WAR getting better with gear, your just a PLD in Denial.

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Or, you know, someone that does math.

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Originally Posted by Kiaris

So Be in Denial all you want if you please :P i've had no issues, and my healers have no complaints so far.

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You don't know what you're talking about. Paladins are better baseline. 20% reduction is effectively 25% more healing and 25% more HP. There is no point at which Warriors will benefit from gear improvements more than a PAL will when it comes to tanking.

There may be various points at which gear makes a WAR a sufficient tank. But a PAL equally geared will ALWAYS be easier to keep alive by a significant margin even before you look at cooldowns.

You are seriously overlooking 20% damage reduction entirely. It is a far better buff than the war's fluctuating % bonus healing and 25% additional HP.