To all the SMN QQ

For what it's worth, I've been running a parser recently on my SMN. While I can almost keep up with DRG/BLM (as in, around 10% less), I still get blown away by BRDs (they do around 50% more damage in an average fight). Of course, that's if everything goes right. Pet dies, you have to move around too much, etc? Your DPS falls off a cliff.

Some major issues:

• Smashing your hotkey for Contagion? Only if Garuda feels like casting it.
• Your dots all have different duration's, meaning any type of established "I can apply them all, then have 3 GCD's free until reapplying" is nearly impossible.
• The UI likes to scatter your debuffs around a mobs healthbar, and God help you if you have a SCH doting or another SMN. Better start memorizing those durations and keeping track in your head!
• Rouse and Spur refuse to cast half the time thanks to the animation lag. Can't go on GCD while trying to cast them either.

DPS is decidedly subpar. Go SCH in Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by Rainsford

snip.

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Read before posting.

-Parser means nothing. Can't/Doesn't properly log DoTs.
-Garuda can only use it if it isn't in the animation of another attack. Just like all skills, it has it's own animation.
-Yes and no, it depends on the fight and invulnerability/add phases.
-This needs to be addressed.
-Rouse and Spur, just like any other off-GCD skill, are bound by animation. Just like all skills, they are bound by animation. There's no "animation lag." It's an intended function. just wait ~.5-1s after using an instant ability and you can use an off-GCD skill during the GCD.

-No real way to test DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

lol
No, you weren't just "writing them down." You posted a rotation, which is clear when you list Fester twice and Ruin II twice(in a row, which is another sign you don't know what you're doing).

snip

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First off using bio causes all skills to go under GCD including thunder. Using thunder you can instantly cast bio right after then use garuda cotagion to keep thunder and bio at the same time limit. Using Ruin II while fester is on cooldown is correct if you don't use Ruin II you obviously don't know what you are doing and missing out on a 7-15% dps. Miasma II then virus ( if you actually believe I use this rotation) is still good since virus does not share GCD with miasma II so you can instantly cast it after. Like I said you are a new player who played WoW you have no clue what you are doing why should I even try to show you im better then you which I am.

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Originally Posted by KingBerry

First off using bio causes all skills to go under GCD including thunder. Using thunder you can instantly cast bio right after then use garuda cotagion to keep thunder and bio at the same time limit. Using Ruin II while fester is on cooldown is correct if you don't use Ruin II you obviously don't know what you are doing and missing out on a 7-15% dps. Miasma II then virus ( if you actually believe I use this rotation) is still good since virus does not share GCD with miasma II so you can instantly cast it after. Like I said you are a new player who played WoW you have no clue what you are doing why should I even try to show you im better then you which I am.

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I literally laughed out loud.

No wonder you think SMN is weak.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

I literally laughed out loud.

No wonder you think SMN is weak.

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No I dont think it weak I think IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO START DPS. You need to get all DoT and fester to start getting dps while any other dps class can be doing damage while you are taking time casting? That why they are least wanted in dungeons. That why all of sudden I barely see anyone play summoner in my server it a joke really they need to change the class not that it lacking dps but it TAKES TO LONG TO START DPSING.

Im not in the mood to start a flame war with you obviously you love DoT class because you came from WoW but I never played WoW only mmo game I ever played was XI and XIV 1.23.

Im new to ffxiv, played smn ffxi. For the life of me, i cant figure out what GCD is. Anyone care to elaborate.

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Originally Posted by Karnage720

Im new to ffxiv, played smn ffxi. For the life of me, i cant figure out what GCD is. Anyone care to elaborate.

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GCD is to make things easier for players that can't handle fast paced action battle with short reaction time and reflects. That why this game went toward WoW players because they would cry and rage if this was 1.23 or XI.

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Originally Posted by KingBerry

No I dont think it weak I think IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO START DPS. You need to get all DoT and fester to start getting dps while any other dps class can be doing damage while you are taking time casting? That why they are least wanted in dungeons. That why all of sudden I barely see anyone play summoner in my server it a joke really they need to change the class not that it lacking dps but it TAKES TO LONG TO START DPSING.

Im not in the mood to start a flame war with you obviously you love DoT class because you came from WoW but I never played WoW only mmo game I ever played was XI and XIV 1.23.

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No, it's not a slow start. Not any longer than other classes.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

lol

What kind of damage do you need to catch up to when you have applied 3 DoTs and used a 300 potency off-GCD skill, while your pet is attacking?
If anything, SMN will be the highest right after 3 GCDs, and other people need to catch up. Again, though, this is just after 3 GCDs. Not saying long-term.

DoTs still tick when you're applying your others, it's not like they wait until you have all of them up and then they magically start ticking. By the time you use Bio->Fester, Bio II would have ticked twice and Miasma once. That's 125 potency on top of 300, on top of 3 pet attacks. That's 725 potency. The only class who can even think to match that potency in the first 3 GCDs is BLM, or a MNK who uses Steel Peak and Howling Fist within the first 2 GCDs. DRG can do it if they use Leg Sweep. We still have other options to increase this further, though, unlike those classes(not to mention using stun CDs for DPS isn't always viable. Hello there, ifrit).

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We are the least wanted in dungeons because of people like you.


As a stern example of your ineptitude and that you don't know what you're doing, you never use Miasma II for single target DPS. It's 70 potency vs 80 from Ruin/Ruin II. The only time it's worth it is the second, or third, contagion. There isn't enough time in the first, and if you want to keep using Fester in the long-run you won't be using Miasma II or Ruin II repeatedly. You use Ruin II as needed, otherwise you use Ruin I. In addition to this, you even backed up doing Thunder->Bio.

You don't know what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by KingBerry

GCD is to make things easier for players that can't handle fast paced action battle with short reaction time and reflects. That why this game went toward WoW players because they would cry and rage if this was 1.23 or XI.

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Hmm...what exactly is it tho. I still dont understand lol

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Originally Posted by Karnage720

Hmm...what exactly is it tho. I still dont understand lol

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It stands for global cooldown.

Basically, when you use a skill you can't use another for 2.5s.

Some abilities have an exception, but that's the gist.

If you wait to use your buffs until Fester is off CD, you're wasting time. And it just gets back to the fact that having to idle your SMN while you wait for Rouse, Spur and Contagion to cast is all time where a BRD is keeping up full DPS.

And the parser does a real good job at accounting for DoTs. Tested it by adding up Bio damage by seeing what numbers popped up and then comparing to what the Parser gave me. Numbers are never more than 1-2% off. That difference does not account for doing 90% of DRG/MNK damage and 50-60% of BRD.

Keep in mind that, as average gear level increases, every class will see the same benefit, while SMNs pets, which account for 20%~ of damage, won't. The DPS gap will only widen over time.

Got it, thanks, carry on lol. Getting a lot from of pointers from both sides of the arguement.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

No, it's not a slow start. Not any longer than other classes.

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Do you even have any other class to 50 beside summoner? because telling me it no longer then any classes I have the feeling you only have a summoner to level 50? Why are you even saying this if you don't have experience with other classes? Monk will murder summoner if someone knows how to use it. BARD will murder summoner if someone knows how to use it.

When I speed run keep we had a smn and dragoon in our party and it TOOK forever to kill bosses and smn struggled against demon wall since he can't start dps right away against adds which made it harder for me to heal. Took the same dragoon and monk and we breezed through it. Since that experience we never take smn to any dungeon or boss fight end of story.

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Originally Posted by KingBerry

Do you even have any other class to 50 beside summoner? because telling me it no longer then any classes I have the feeling you only have a summoner to level 50? Why are you even saying this if you don't have experience with other classes? Monk will murder summoner if someone knows how to use it. BARD will murder summoner if someone knows how to use it.

When I speed run keep we had a smn and dragoon in our party and it TOOK forever to kill bosses and smn struggled against demon wall since he can't start dps right away against adds which made it harder for me to heal. Took the same dragoon and monk and we breezed through it. Since that experience we never take smn to any dungeon or boss fight end of story.

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You kill the adds?

lol

Yep, your DPS is low.

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Originally Posted by KingBerry

Read what I just wrote and read it slowly it seems you went derp.

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Fine, the SMN you had was bad and had low DPS.

But you do, too, with what you're posting.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

You kill the adds?

lol

Yep, your DPS is low.

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Read what I just wrote and read it slowly it seems you went derp.

I do have to say after reaching 45 with my summoner and 47 with my black mage the summoner needs more testing the ramp up time for DOTS is too long in my opinion because there are many dungeons that require quick burst like demon wall etc. This goes back to enkindle the cooldown is too long in my opinion they should also make the pets interact with the spells more shining emerald/contagion is a good place to start.

Plus they need to fix the debuff cap like now before 24 man raids come in cause if they don't I doubt summoner will get much of a place in 24 man raids.

Did you do the Wanderer Palace ? With two summoner ? The last boss just die so fast it is not even funny.

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Originally Posted by Rainsford

If you wait to use your buffs until Fester is off CD, you're wasting time. And it just gets back to the fact that having to idle your SMN while you wait for Rouse, Spur and Contagion to cast is all time where a BRD is keeping up full DPS.

And the parser does a real good job at accounting for DoTs. Tested it by adding up Bio damage by seeing what numbers popped up and then comparing to what the Parser gave me. Numbers are never more than 1-2% off. That difference does not account for doing 90% of DRG/MNK damage and 50-60% of BRD.

Keep in mind that, as average gear level increases, every class will see the same benefit, while SMNs pets, which account for 20%~ of damage, won't. The DPS gap will only widen over time.

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Do this test. Apply Bio to a target, look and see if it is ticking the damage or adding a simulated full duration damage. if it is the later than theres your problem. i dont know what u are using but they show miasma and not bio or bio 2. Also, ive mentioned this before but ill dumb it down either further. Cast a spell on a mob and look at the battle log, notice how instead of saying X character did x damage to target it says the target takes x amount of damage. In a group environment that data can be mistakenly placed somewhere else. For example lets say your damage from fester post at the same time as a sch. ruin, there is a chance that he could get credit for that damage towards his ruin as oppose to it properly parsing fester. This is why people need to research how parses work before they try to pass it off as factual evidence.

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Originally Posted by abesut

Garuda is like a 100 potency dot with an hp bar. That's pretty much it. And she happens to die a lot in endgame, even in metagame dungeons against certain bosses, do I have to mention the Doom-casting minotaur?
Can't really call that being a summoner. They even took the lazy route of just reskinning carbuncle and slapping an additional 10-15 potency to the attacks/spells. Garuda is only really worthwhile in terms of dmg when you have buffed her up with Rouse and Spur >_>

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My garuda-egi never dies even in intensive fights like titan HM and doom-casting minotaur is a 30ish dungeon so i dont even know why you even brought that up but w/e. Like i said saying garuda-egi is not worth while is saying your DoTs are not worthwhile. literally everything u said is wrong.

Hm garuda is rough on the feathers phase because our ramp up time is too long. This is another thing I've been concerned about is how long it takes for us to start doing our dmg. Its too long, 13+ seconds to be precise. Our pets are just additional dots which sucks. Was hoping our pets would dish our more of our dmg.

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Originally Posted by Rover1983

Hm garuda is rough on the feathers phase because our ramp up time is too long. This is another thing I've been concerned about is how long it takes for us to start doing our dmg. Its too long, 13+ seconds to be precise. Our pets are just additional dots which sucks. Was hoping our pets would dish our more of our dmg.

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Uh, we're great on feathers. The first 2 feather phases where they spawn on her are ours to make or break.

It's not 13+ seconds. At the 7.5s mark we're doing, at a minimum, 725 potency. That's more than other classes can do without blowing bigger CDs.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Uh, we're great on feathers. The first 2 feather phases where they spawn on her are ours to make or break.

It's not 13+ seconds. At the 7.5s mark we're doing, at a minimum, 725 potency. That's more than other classes can do without blowing bigger CDs.

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you just keep pulling out those numbers, makes me take you even less serious :D

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Originally Posted by abesut

you just keep pulling out those numbers, makes me take you even less serious :D

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GCD 1 - Bio II
-1s in Garuda uses Wind Blade - 100 Potency
GCD 2 - Miasma - 20 Potency Initially. During cast, Bio II ticks for 35 potency.
4s in Garuda uses Wind Blade - 100 potency
GCD 3 - Bio - Bio II ticks for 35 potency, Miasma for 35 potency
In between GCD - Fester, 300 potency
7s in - Garuda uses Wind Blade - 100 potency


Now count all that up.


Now to go on to why we're good going on feathers!

We're the only class in the game that can easily turn our single target rotation into AoE, and guess what that means also being a DoT class? If we properly time our DoTs so they have a high timer, and place shadow flare..We can bane as soon as the adds spawn!

And guess what that means? They're going to be dead, fast.


Edit: Yes, when in factoring in auto attacks we're behind, but not as much as people think.

Considering summoner could be a tank, dps, or healer wouldn't that be its specialty? The may not be the best tank, healer, or dps compared to other jobs, but the fact that they can do all 3 gives them an advantage.

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Originally Posted by toddx77

Considering summoner could be a tank, dps, or healer wouldn't that be its specialty? The may not be the best tank, healer, or dps compared to other jobs, but the fact that they can do all 3 gives them an advantage.

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Rofl no, smns can only dps with the occasional instant cast raise.

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Originally Posted by Malix

Rofl no, smns can only dps with the occasional instant cast raise.

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I have been in dungeons where a arcanist has healed or even tanked and we did fine. Granted these were the first 2 dungeons though.

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Originally Posted by toddx77

I have been in dungeons where a arcanist has healed or even tanked and we did fine. Granted these were the first 2 dungeons though.

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Good luck having a SMN tank or heal in endgame. You made lol