FFXIV / Tera battle mechanics

I played K-TERA until they broke the English patch. The environments and combat system are completely amazing. I never liked to play a healer in an MMO until TERA, its fun having to aim your heals while at the same time avoiding getting squashed by a boss that will literally jump on you and kill you if you don't move out of the way.

When I think of FFXIV I think of amazing storyline and environments, although the environments are a little repetitive at the moment. Unfortunately, I don't see the combat system ever becoming as fun as something like TERA. I really don't see the implementation of auto-attack something that could fix it either. Personally, I wanted a battle system at least similar to TERA, something that keeps you on your toes and required focus, with the auto-attack implementation I only see it heading further in the direction of FFXI, where everyone stands in one spot, using a weapon skill here and there, dull and completely boring.

yeah, it definitely seems like they are moving away from an active combat where you control every action. Just adding auto attack implies you are going to be static in most battles, and also that it will be irrelevant if you throw out random attacks.

I think SE will find that most people will drop FFXIV for the better gameplay of games like TERA or GW2.

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Originally Posted by Nikita

I played K-TERA until they broke the English patch. The environments and combat system are completely amazing. I never liked to play a healer in an MMO until TERA, its fun having to aim your heals while at the same time avoiding getting squashed by a boss that will literally jump on you and kill you if you don't move out of the way.

When I think of FFXIV I think of amazing storyline and environments, although the environments are a little repetitive at the moment. Unfortunately, I don't see the combat system ever becoming as fun as something like TERA. I really don't see the implementation of auto-attack something that could fix it either. Personally, I wanted a battle system at least similar to TERA, something that keeps you on your toes and required focus, with the auto-attack implementation I only see it heading further in the direction of FFXI, where everyone stands in one spot, using a weapon skill here and there, dull and completely boring.

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It depends. The direction of tera is a Action mesh of MMO. The problem inherent in that is the heavy use of gimmicks (aka your moving around and boss doing charge, stomps, etc).

The problem with all gimmicks is, they don't stand the test of time. If figuring out the pattern of a boss is 70% of the battle, then scenario writers will be driven into a wall to keep making new patterns (which is harder then it sounds).

It's the same problem that is now plaguing DCU. Lack of lasting content by having too over used gimmicks.

Given how badly FF14 is in timely content, Mimicking Tera's gimmick battling is the last thing they need. It's a reason action games don't last more then 10hrs. The pattern gets old once you beat it.

They dont need to mimic those gimmick, they just need to give obvious boss monsters more attacks and faster stamina regen. FFXIV is actually good about its current monsters and NM's not being "it will use these attack at this time and in this order"

It's not really a gimmick when it is a crucial part of the combat system as a whole, not just some encounter-specific feature like QTE in some games.

I'd really like this game to be more laid-back instead of having to be 100% focused constantly. That doesn't mean the game can't challenge me, but I don't really care for it that much. MMO's aren't challenging as a whole, and wanting to be challenged is not the reason I play them. There are better games out there for that, which don't include fighting weak monsters 90% of the time until you get to the good stuff.

I dont want to see monsters and bosses become like that of WoW, where it could be programmed into a mod what the monster is going to do and when. Extremely boring. And the challenge was almost completely negated because of those mods.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Hah i forgot to mention that one. They are all ridiculous grinds

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Well, Guildleves are the worst type of Grind ever made.
At least Tera's got thousands of quests for lv up you're character, you can chose to grind, doing quest or dungeons.
And you can move to a new different area every 1-2 levels. (yes a NEW area, not a new camp that look the same)

Like i said, maybe Tera has broken away from the chain of ridiculous grind themes other Korean MMO's always have. it isn't completely done being 'Westernized' yet either. Who knows what it will become at the EU/NA release. . . . WoW? w. we've already seen what happens when you dont include auto attack. "OMG no auto attack?! I quit. But before that, I'm going to bash the game in it's entirety, and make sure everyone knows I quit."

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Originally Posted by Matty86

Well, Guildleves are the worst type of Grind ever made.
At least Tera's got thousands of quests for lv up you're character, you can chose to grind, doing quest or dungeons.
And you can move to a new different area every 1-2 levels. (yes a NEW area, not a new camp that look the same)

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Pretty much this. I would also like to point out that the grind in FFXIV is far worse and its closer to Korean MMO than any other game I've played so far.

Don't forget the grind in FFXI... it was actually way worse than XIV, and took YEARS to finally change. But they are still making adjustments to both guildleves and field monsters, as well as introducing dungeons and raids later on. The best thing anyone can do if they actually like playing FFXIV is to make proper suggestions on how SP can be improved in areas other than Guildleves. Just quitting doesn't help anyone but the quitter. The game is in a state of constant change. And lets not forget, there is still no monthly fee.

You people talk like having less grind is a good thing.

Or maybe I am just misunderstanding.

I think everyone want wants a decent amount of grind. Not so much that it takes a year to get one class to 50, but not so little that it takes one week.

I don't care much of exp grindind. What i find disturbing of korean games is the insane amount of grind to get even the worst shit of equip.
something like "earn 100m of pvp point for a t1 gear".

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

I don't care much of exp grindind. What i find disturbing of korean games is the insane amount of grind to get even the worst shit of equip.
something like "earn 100m of pvp point for a t1 gear".

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Oh umm kind of like Relic/Mythic weapons from FFXI? Or how about unaltered dynamis where you saw 0-2 pieces of gear per run while competing against 7 other people for the item? Or how about FFXI NMs with low drop rates on top of 4-24 hour respawns on top of competition? :P I don't think that is something limited to Korean games. The point is, many MMOs have disgusting grinds including the ones made by our beloved SE. At least in Korean grinds you know you are actually making progress.

And as far as the combat system being gimmicky, it isn't a gimmick, as has been said. The entire combat system as a whole revolves around this. Even group quests require you to kill normal roaming monsters that are *gasp* challenging. There are plenty of mechanics to work with. And I hate to break it to you, but if a game like TERA will run out of interesting combat mechanics, so will FFXIV. So far nearly everything seems to be common sense tank and spank.

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Oh umm kind of like Relic/Mythic weapons from FFXI? Or how about unaltered dynamis where you saw 0-2 pieces of gear per run while competing against 7 other people for the item? Or how about FFXI NMs with low drop rates on top of 4-24 hour respawns on top of competition?

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relic/mythic can virtually be purchased buying the entire amount of coins, provided enough money, isn't like grind honor point or whatsover.
Same for the rest, low NM drop isn't tecnically the same. Also, i hated camping nm

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

relic/mythic can virtually be purchased buying the entire amount of coins, provided enough money, isn't like grind honor point or whatsover.
Same for the rest, low NM drop isn't tecnically the same. Also, i hated camping nm

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Wow you could buy Mythic weapons with coins!? I thought you needed a Vigil weapon, had to complete floor 1-100 of Nyzul, had to defeat all the Beastkings of Aht Urgan, had to defeat all 4 chariots, had to complete Einherjar, killing Odan, buy an eyepatch that costs 100,000 (alot of "grinding"), buy another item for 150,000 Nyzul Isle Tokens (alot of grinding), complete EVERY assault mission, gather 30,000 alexandrite ( alot of grinding, which no, along with all the currency I've mentioned, cant be bought), and finally defeating Zahak and Balran.

Mythic Weapons basically required you to complete every ounce of content that was included with Treasures of Aht Urgan and every update to it that followed, and not a single piece of it could you simply cop out of with gil. I can't really believed I just spent my time typing all that but it was to make a point. Also, ^_^ you can't just say the idea of "grinding" can be used in one context and not another as you see fit. It can be used in many areas because its basically all the same thing weather you want to see it that way or not.

Weather or not TERA is or isn't a grind isn't relevant anyway since the topic of this thread was on the battle system, and nothing else. Though I did want to point out that someone called TERA a Korean grind game and I thought it was funny because FFXI was known for the exact same thing, and here they are playing the next MMO in the series.

The bigger part in mithyc are still the coin. All the rest is easly obtainable if you did regularly that events the time they were introduced, and had a hnm linkshell.
if you snobbed it, then you're screwed.
And in what part of universe alexandrite can't be buyed ?

W/e, you have to agree korean games are generally a step over other games on farming. they just like it.

The grind is boring but from 30 it takes a mere 3 1/2 weeks to get to 50 maybe a month with some time off. I am just talking about doing a set of particular leves that give you the best SP possible. So idk about you guys but the grind isn't that bad. Do we need alternate means of grinding? hell yeah we do, but it will come with time. In the passed two months this team has done more with this game than the original team has had with 4 months er so? As long as things are moving forward and I am not paying, I can't complain about much.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

You people talk like having less grind is a good thing.

Or maybe I am just misunderstanding.

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People want the grind to be hidden. If the gameplay in your game feels grindy and mindless, then it's failing, and people will ask for less grinding. Objectives and quests usually help, but if they're too generic and repetitive, it'll just feel like you're grinding quests instead of enemies.

In the end everything can be considered a grind... the difference is whether it feels that way or not: whether your players are tricked into believing they're not grinding.

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People want the grind to be hidden. If the gameplay in your game feels grindy and mindless, then it's failing, and people will ask for less grinding. Objectives and quests usually help, but if they're too generic and repetitive, it'll just feel like you're grinding quests instead of enemies.

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This. I never felt the grind in FFXI to be "grindy", since I just *loved* the party play and constant threat of being wiped and losing EXP because you attacked monsters a good 10 levels above you. It took me, like, 2 years to reach LV 75. But I enjoyed most of it. Why? Because the battle system was good (at least for that age of gaming - considering today's standards, it is old-fashioned. Especially in direct compaison to TERA and similar new titles).

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Originally Posted by solracht

People want the grind to be hidden. If the gameplay in your game feels grindy and mindless, then it's failing, and people will ask for less grinding. Objectives and quests usually help, but if they're too generic and repetitive, it'll just feel like you're grinding quests instead of enemies.

In the end everything can be considered a grind... the difference is whether it feels that way or not: whether your players are tricked into believing they're not grinding.

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Exactly. Getting exp doesn't just have to be pulling a mob to camp, killing it and repeating ad nauseum. You could do quests that don't even require you to kill mobs, anything else to give the illusion that you're not grinding. Do some mid-range dungeons; the mobs would reward some decent (not too high) SP while bosses give more. Add in some quests that require killing the boss in a certain dungeon for mass SP rewards.

I mean really... Other games do it and they do it well. Would it be so bad for this game to learn from its peers?

Currently we have: grind the same set of leves from 22 to 50 or grind mobs because quests don't give us SP and Guild Tasks ranks are too low.

Again, it's all about making it seem like you're not really grinding. You could be having fun doing random shit and all of a sudden "oh hey I got 2 ranks." This in itself shortens the grind without touching the exp/sp tables (which would be a quick SE fix).

Thats where FFXIV needs to be in terms of SP acquisition.

Didn't read everything in the thread but:

I'll agree it would be more exciting if the NMs had a larger variety of attacks and moved around a bit more. Having it stand in one place for the entire battle makes things less challenging and sometimes just boring. Attacks that allow the monster to reposition in a meaningful manner (NOT like Unknown Soldier -_-) can make things more interesting and challenging.

Agree that we need better ways to gain SP, why don't NM's award SP ?, I hope to god dungeons will.

Quests should give decent SP also.

As for NM's in this game well they are the most boring and sleep inducing I have seen in a game in a long time, they aren't dynamic they just stand there and do the odd AoE every now and again.

Oh and SE please please please increase mages healing distance, when people are running around standing on the otherside of a large monster (Great Buffalo) it requires us to get too close to reach them, at which point if the NM decides to stomp the floor we are basically dead. (I'm sure the hardcore brigade will come in here and say it adds to the difficultly of the fight, but it really doesn't its cheap and pointless)

I'm not asking for massive range on all spells just healing spells and possibly stat removal spells (not that anyone uses them)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Oh and SE please please please increase mages healing distance, when people are running around standing on the otherside of a large monster (Great Buffalo) it requires us to get too close to reach them, at which point if the NM decides to stomp the floor we are basically dead. (I'm sure the hardcore brigade will come in here and say it adds to the difficultly of the fight, but it really doesn't its cheap and pointless)

I'm not asking for massive range on all spells just healing spells and possibly stat removal spells (not that anyone uses them)

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Well, it's not a problem with THM, but the magic range on CON is a joke. The circle AOE needs to be a lot bigger, and the range needs to be slightly farther.