The Direction of FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Rokien

They're 100 WoWs, if you want a casual game then go play one of those. There is only one FFXI. I think we want some more variety just like WoW has. Thats not being selfish at all. In fact all you casual players are the selfish people. There are tons of casual games out there. Go play those. I for one like hardcore games, and I know some of you do as well. Square enix is one of those companies that satisfies my tastes, and they are putting to much pepper on this sandwich. Soo, stop saying hurp durp, and leave if you don't have something intellectual to say.

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Are you "special" or something? ffxiv was advertised in advance to being casual friendly. thats what ppl are not seeing. Also ffxi basicaly died when WoW launched. It barely bran in new players till the 360 launch. And it wasn't even a large increase. no one wants to play ga,es like ffxi or everquest anymore. They are too time consuming.
I never said I was happy about the way mmo are becoming. But its high time we accept it.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

That's because most of the things go over your head.

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He's not as skilled as you. Didn't browse enough internets.

This game was advertised to be casual-friendly, it's not like you people were lied to or anything.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

That's because most of the things go over your head.

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Or you can't actually think about a subject before yelling "EZMODE".

Peregrine. If you've been keeping up on the happenings here at the lodestone, BR has given Yoshi-P until April 19th to come out and give some clear message as to exactly what SE is doing about the combat, armory system, and some clear direction for the game and a general timeline. If this message is not delivered by the 19th, Yoshi-P will have lost his chance to reach the outside world. He needs to deliver this message while nobody in the video game community/industry is talking about anything. It's the only way for his message to spread. Come april 19th, he will have lost his chance, and the fate of FFXIV will be sealed..... FOREVER

Again, I can't dumb myself down for a product perfectly tuned to you, as I'm simply overqualified. You can, however, pay more attention to your surroundings.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Again, I can't dumb myself down for a product perfectly tuned to you, as I'm simply overqualified. You can, however, pay more attention to your surroundings.

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Then who's really the idiot, if you're a playing a product for me?

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Originally Posted by BelgianRofl

Peregrine. If you've been keeping up on the happenings here at the lodestone, BR has given Yoshi-P until April 19th to come out and give some clear message as to exactly what SE is doing about the combat, armory system, and some clear direction for the game and a general timeline. If this message is not delivered by the 19th, Yoshi-P will have lost his chance to reach the outside world. He needs to deliver this message while nobody in the video game community/industry is talking about anything. It's the only way for his message to spread. Come april 19th, he will have lost his chance, and the fate of FFXIV will be sealed..... FOREVER

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A. You did not just refer to yourself in the third person.
B. Again, didn't answer the question. Why april 19th? Because you said so?

Shows about as much thought as an agro icon demander has given to their own deficient field behaviors.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

That's because most of the things go over your head.

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Don't make me get a dutch boy to poke you.
(if you don't get this joke it ima laugh)

there is no need to be an insulting (censored) Just because you are a selfish person, or assumed ffxiv woulda been like ffxi.

SE was not shy about it being a casual friendly game nor is it all of a sudeen becoming one.

Maybe you guys are the delusional ones to not have heard or seen this. All SE is doing is forfilling what they advertized. And even still

everyone just wants a fun populated game, and sorry but games like everquest no longer bring in subs. Its games like WoW. Do i like it heck no.

But if we get a more populated game after all the fixes ima be happy, and just play to have fun. Thats all I want and care about. I'm not hyper picky. if they add stuff in I don;t like i'll just not do them or worry about them. I'll stick to what I do like. I barely/nevrer did ffxi end game and still had fun :)

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Then who's really the idiot, if you're a playing a product for me?

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Well that makes no sense at all. I'm not playing for you, now I'm not even convinced you know what you're even saying. If they end up giving the game to the bads, sure I'll quit just like I no longer compete with 5th graders in basketball because that would make me look bad.

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Originally Posted by BelgianRofl

Come april 19th

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I see you throw this date around a lot, are you seriously thinking offline games has any bearing on MMORPGs? They are very much unrelated to one another, just like people constantly spouted off that Modern Warfare was going to kill all MMORPGs when it released.

If you want to leave the game and forums on the 19th, do it, however don't make it as if it's a holy date for FFXIV to be "recaptured" by people, you're better off going on and on about E3 or TGS, not some release dates of offline titles that are even completely unrelated to the RPG genre itself.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Again, I can't dumb myself down for a product perfectly tuned to you, as I'm simply overqualified. You can, however, pay more attention to your surroundings.

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I'm still waiting for you to tell me how typing /toggle and ignoring the fact that people can see enemy levels is any different than not using wikis and ignoring the fact that everyone else is using them.

If you guys were complaining about enemies being able to be killed while rolling your face across the keyboard, I would not only understand, but agree. If you were complaining about how every enemy is on a short leash and so you can easily outrun any kind of danger you come across, I would agree.

You're however complaining about information being shown in the game. Information that players have accessed and used in every. single. MMORPG regardless of how much information was actually shown by the game itself.

We're in an age where information is easily accessible, regardless of whether the game offers it or not. If it's not in the game, people will look for it outside. We're not talking about challenge here, we're talking about displaying goddamned information. Information that's always going to be accessible to matter what.

Not only that, you're basically saying that players who use browsers are better than players who look at enemy icons.

Peregrine seems like parents from the 40s and 50s, while times have changed they refuse to just accept it because they feel it's their way or the highway.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Well that makes no sense at all. I'm not playing for you, now I'm not even convinced you know what you're even saying. If they end up giving the game to the bads, sure I'll quit just like I no longer compete with 5th graders in basketball because that would make me look bad.

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I assumed your post was for me, but it wasn't. Learn how to quote people!!!

That guy's sig is actually pretty funny, considering good players know pterocs don't agro by the time they ever see ringtails. It's not about making fun of the game giving you all information. It's that it gives you information that any self-respecting MMO player should already know how to proficiently manage.

If you had used enough browsers in your time, you would know you can search for levels too. You must secretly be an icon-supporter if you didn't know that.

Consider yourself kicked from the Elite team of FFXIV. Good day, sir.

I wonder, Peregrine, since you seem to be the pinnacle of an MMO gamer...do you hate the in-game FAQ systems MMOs generally have?

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Originally Posted by solracht

If you had used enough browsers in your time, you would know you can search for levels too. You must secretly be an icon-supporter if you didn't know that.

Consider yourself kicked from the Elite team of FFXIV. Good day, sir.

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Again, I simply laugh at your need for information I already had. Blue-green-yellow-orange-red essentially already gave me the mob's level, and it's given me their level since beta.

You're just the kind of player that needs that number because you can't figure it out. Juuust like you can't figure out how to navigate zones you're not familiar with without agro assist on.

It's a skills issue and you're just not putting enough thought into the game. That renders players like me overqualified. If they tune the game to your level of effort and thought, it becomes a snorefest for players like me.

If they tune the game to my level of effort and thought, it becomes frustrating and harrrrrd for players like you.

Get better. I can't get worse.

Mob aggression has nothing to do with map navigation, especially because they have no bearing on the route you need to take because they're scattered, not in one set area.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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It looks like you're the one that needs to learn how to read. I wasn't talking about post #49. I know he quoted me. I was talking about post I replied to, which was #45, he didn't quote the person he was replying to. He was replying to post#42, when I thought he was replying to post #43. If he quoted then there wouldn't be any confusion.

You should just do trial and error (that's what I do.) If I cant do something at one level, Ill wait a few levels and try it again. I can kinda gauge on how something is, WITHOUT anyone telling me anything. I am agreeing with you Peregrine. I swear gamers today are stupid as all get out.

Well man i'll answer but uh..man.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

I'd like to start off by saying that I believe there are changes that have taken place for this game and planned to take place that are alienating a specific crowd. I'll agree they may be a minority. FFXIV's next generation graphics and base idea has garnered itself a lot of attention from a larger audience then that of FFXI. Due to this a lot of suggestions and arguments being made for the game are leaving behind the people hoping for an innovative new game by the creators of a great game.

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Pandering to a minority for a subscription game isnt the best idea from a business standpoint, especially the hardcore minority in this case where it is difficult to pull them away from other games that they have already made a serious investment in, difficult to bring in new players because of steep learning curves and difficult to pull them BACK once they've stopped playing a hardcore game because their lives just got busier. Hardcore players have a tendency to be fickle and abrasive and tend to have opinions on how they think OTHER people should play a game.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Problems:
I think adding aggro icons and now this was and is a bad idea. I agree with the people that it makes the game too easy. To those who say turn it off: I don't think that creates an adventurous, immersive, or fair playing field. I want to know that my companions see the same thing I do when I play the game. Being able to turn this feature off is like if I hacked to make my rank 1 armor to look like a harlequinn's set; looks great to me but doesn't affect anyone else.

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I wouldnt consider it particularly fair that anyone with the pc power to run in windowed can look up information about any monster via the wiki, but that doesnt ruin the game for me.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

To those who say this game focuses on casual players: I don't want to believe this game will ever definitively be solely casual. FFXI is one of the few MMORPGs that took the step to be different and tough. Thus it brought on a different crowd and still had a large player base.

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FFXI is also almost ten years old, born in a market that was much less saturated with options. It used a lot of tricks to make it seem more difficult than it actually was at a time where gamers werent yet pointing these out. The hardcore playerbase has been spread thin among the options it has recieved in the years since xi's release and hasnt enjoyed much growth. XI's large playebase might have been the most success a steep learning curve grinder title is going to get outside of asia(Barring lineage 2).

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Targetting casual players means bigger competition for Final Fantasy XI. Every other MMORPG is very similar and targets casuals. Square Enix has proven they can make a game that is different, challenging and good. I want to see Square Enix do what they've proven to be one of the best at.

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It means more competition yes, but it also means a bigger and more reliable market. casuals have exploded onto the scene in recent years and there's plenty of slices of that pie to go around. I believe square can put challenging elements into a game while still appealing to casuals.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Solution:
As I understand that I can't persuade everyone to believe this game should be the same game I want it to be I offer a sort compromise: Keep color coded or some kind of basic check system like what we have. This creates a measure of ambiguity on enemy strength and ability keeping the sense of danger. Add a a libra type ability that allows you to check an enemy and display it's stats to the party. This could simply include making the level and aggro information display next to the enemy's name like the picture shown by the OP. This could also be much more advanced or have a version II that shows more about the enemy such as weaknesses, HP, MP, battle tips, etc. This ability can be awarded to a class such as ranger to give further class uniqueness and a reason for teamwork.

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Thats a fairly good compromise that works thematically, I could go for that.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

There are plenty more things I could name problems alienating the people whom I represent. Even though I can't say that the market ward changes weren't necessary due to them being very poorly implemented I can't say that I'm happy how it was fixed (Mabinogi has a world that is almost completely void of any item search feature).

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I'm not sure it was a bad thing. I was mildly disappointed when they implemented the search feature...but thats because i was ripping people off with outrageous prices and buying things to resell them at a higher value in the proper wards. I guess it comes down to if you think this kind of thing is fair game. But yeah there were probably other ways to fix it

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Enemies no longer following players removes special parts of the game's immersion. The fact that sheep crowded your vision and your targetting to an outrageous degree is a different design flaw and could've been fixed given more time and thinking outside the box a little bit.

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I...dont know i would have four or five sheep staring at me at a time, not only that they would constantly walk into aoe, which is incredibly frustrating when yellows dont give sp. But yeah i guess...other ways to fix it.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

When FFXI was created it was hardly the dawn of MMOs. The idea seemed to create an image of real life living in a fantasy realm where you can create your own final fantasy. Grinding was implemented as a way to keep subscribers and also a way of defining those who would work hardest for what they wanted. Games like World of Warcraft came about and created it's own version of the genre that focused on this grind and timesink functions. This was expanded on by a million more MMOs to make the grind funner and less stressful. Not that that creates a poor game, but let us not forget what FFXI was. The immersive and breathtaking world. A world that spoke of a real fantasy.

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So the game should be more stressful? Because thats immersive? I have a job for if ever want that kind of experience, I dont even..

These days the grind doesnt look like much more than a function to keep people playing the game longer. Do you know why? Because features have since been developed to make to add real difficulty, smarter bosses, encounters that make you think, puzzles, stuff like that. As for dedication based on time, well. I'm afraid while that sort of thing can be catered to in game it cant be the whole base of play, the new consumers just dont have as much time as the old ones. Heck a lot of the old ones dont have as much time as they used to.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

It seems the development team is sadly moving the game in a direction that is leaving me, and the audience I represent, behind. I had faith that Square Enix was the one company that could make a game for us but now decisions are being made that throw me into doubt. Things that I liked are actually being taken away when I thought there was only room for improvement. Square Enix, please don't forget these fans.

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They can always put in content for you but it will probably be ancillary. if the entire game really does have to revolve around the hardcore playerbase for you to stay I'm afraid that you are going to be looking for another game even if they do take the game in that direction. Its just not a financially safe option and it could cause the game to collapse. Not to mention that square already has a game that is known in the hardcore market.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Square Enix honor what it was you stood for. Bring back what it meant to live in a Final Fantasy. Not what it means to live in a modern MMO.

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Meh, what it means to be final fantasy means different things to different people. I certainly wouldnt want to see the series get left behind.

edit: darn i thought that was my 600th post so i went extra long.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I wonder, Peregrine, since you seem to be the pinnacle of an MMO gamer...do you hate the in-game FAQ systems MMOs generally have?

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No, I like the online guides and ask the devs sessions. I'm all for clarifying the voodoo. Just not holding your hand out in the field.

Have I ever said I needed (or wanted) the icons? Acknowledging how something works, or why something would be good to have, has absolutely nothing to do with whether you agree with it or not.

Since we're calling each other out now: You're the kind of player that has locked himself in a bubble and refuses to see anything beyond that. Your views on these things are those of a dying MMORPG player breed, and that's why it's hilarious to argue with you.

I'll play with all icons off, btw.

EDIT: I see you edited in more stuff. I'm just going to say it again: You're not even arguing skill, you're arguing information. If you feel more skilled because other players have to find information on the internet rather than simply reading from the game itself, fucking lol

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

If they tune the game to my level of effort and thought, it becomes frustrating and harrrrrd for players like you.

Get better. I can't get worse.

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Ironically, this is why MMOs are becoming more casual, hell gaming in general, because the whole "hardcore" days are over.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Again, I simply laugh at your need for information I already had. Blue-green-yellow-orange-red essentially already gave me the mob's level, and it's given me their level since beta.

You're just the kind of player that needs that number because you can't figure it out. Juuust like you can't figure out how to navigate zones you're not familiar with without agro assist on.

It's a skills issue and you're just not putting enough thought into the game. That renders players like me overqualified. If they tune the game to your level of effort and thought, it becomes a snorefest for players like me.

If they tune the game to my level of effort and thought, it becomes frustrating and harrrrrd for players like you.

Get better. I can't get worse.

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go get poked by a dutch boy already. Stop being a selfish person. The game was adertized as casual friendly. They are just doing that they promised. Aggro icons are not making the game any easier. It just make ppl avoid aggro faster.

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Originally Posted by Randis

the icon is plain useless IMO, it makes no difefrence having one or not having one.
Can Anyone here name Mobs that don't look like they are aggro? I think its pretty obvious.
When i started with the game, i was not sure if the crabs are aggro but other than that, i never had the issue.

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I got murdered by a vulture by thinking "oh vultures are non predatory birds i'll be fine ARGH WHY"

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

No, I like the online guides and ask the devs sessions. I'm all for clarifying the voodoo. Just not holding your hand out in the field.

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which what a guide does actually. it tells you second by second what to do where to go. Aggro icon don't.

pere if you want a hard game here is a suggestion

1 play the game with names off
2 walk only
3 never do a levequest
4 only kill mobs 4 level above you
5 never party.

there, that is how you can make ffxiv more challenging. will you stop being such a wet blanket about this. I accepted this a long time ago.

honestly if you want to see a REAL easy game look up DCUO. that "ezmode" game is also highly praised and is in worst state then ffxiv.

I saw the words; skill, easy mode appear a few time when talking about the aggro icon, but could anyone tell me what skills have to do with that.

I mean with an aggro icon, player X avoid an aggressive monster. Why did he avoid it? Because of the icon. Ok, no skill involve.

Without aggro icon, player X avoid an aggressive monster. Why did he avoid it?

A: Someone told me it's aggressive.
B: I looked it up on the net.
C: It attacked me earlier.
D: It look like it's aggressive.

I don't really see the skills in those answer too...

And in both case, if you didn't avoid the monster, either you didn't pay attention or didn't knew what the icon meant/that the monster was aggressive and will pay attention next time.

Also, between aggro icon and mini map, I'd say the mini map is what make avoiding aggro easy. Aggro icon just give you the information that it's aggressive. The mini map show every monster near you, even those you can't see and how far they are. With just the aggro icon and not mini map, you would still get attacked by nearby spawn and monster that are in your camera dead angle. With the mini map, aggro icon or not, you can avoid anything as long as you pay attention. And yet, all the complain about the game being easy are directed to the aggro icon and not the mini map...

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Ironically, this is why MMOs are becoming more casual, hell gaming in general, because the whole "hardcore" days are over.

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This isn't about hardcore. You all have gotten so careless that not knowing how Ringtail Pterocs will treat you by the time you see them is suddenly hardcore? I'm not hardcore. You're just not even paying ATTENTION any more.

You learned everything you needed to know about Pterocs by level 10, and you should have learned by experience.
-Nonagro mobs
-watch the backflips
-drop wind shards

I don't have to look that **** up. I knew that back in beta. If/when a pteroc agroes me, I'll get hit. But I'll sure as hell remember what kind of pteroc that was. I still remember the kinds of doblyns that agroed in beta, and they don't even exist any more.

This is not hardcore. This is standard. If that's hardcore to you, your standards are just getting lax.

i can name several ffxi mobs that don't look like they aggro and do.
crawlers
bats
bettles
tri bats
worms
bunnies
trees/trents
slime.

Agro icon supporters are probably just the kinds of players who don't enjoy learning. They hide behind the argument that knowing things is HARDCORE and against the will of the changing times. Just tell them the answer.

Gonna be a hard life.

For the vast majority of mob types, FFXIV stays true to their original encounter forms.
Flytraps agro. Every flytrap you've seen since you were level 6 has agroed. They will always agro. If you don't know, ask. We know. I don't know how you managed to not know, but we know.

Don't cry if they agro. Its YOUR fault if one agroes you. No one else's.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Agro icon supporters are probably just the kinds of players who don't enjoy learning. They hide behind the argument that knowing things is HARDCORE and against the will of the changing times. Just tell them the answer.

Gonna be a hard life.

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I think they are all bums in that case(which I think they are) most everything you said I agree on. I hate how lax people have gotten. I hate how games have to hold your hand and be like "Ok dear, no cars are coming, lets cross now(holding your hand)" when your 30 years of age. People have no common sense anymore. I thought people were smarter then this, but I was wrong... very very wrong.

I support aggro icons, I will play without them on, I enjoy learning things by trial and error, and still remember the aggro and linking conditions of most FFXI enemies.

I'm not even following you anymore, honestly. The wiki is going to be around regardless of what they do. Those that don't enjoy learning, those that aren't willing to learn (god forbid everyone is not as LEET as us, bro) will not, even if the game itself encourages you to.

So again, what has changed?

sweeping generalizations yeehaw.

I 'liked' this thread.

I wish Yoshi would just explain the game and its new direction to us. What is the overall big picture? Which concepts of the original design are you going to be minimising? Which ideas will you be maintaining? So far all we've got is the implementation of a few features which change the fabric of the existing game (aggro indicators etc) and the promise of several new features (auto-attack and companies) which seem to suggest a divergence from the "fantasy reality sandbox" type game FFXIV was originally going for and changing into a more WoW-player friendly themepark game.

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Agro icon supporters are probably just the kinds of players who don't enjoy learning. They hide behind the argument that knowing things is HARDCORE and against the will of the changing times. Just tell them the answer.

Gonna be a hard life.

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7 years of FF XI,i think i learned to learn a lot in the meanwhile.
And i don't still see nothing bad in a icon you can turn off.
And yes, indicators like that is a standard like now.
And again, you can turn it off, so what's your point ? Oh yeah, you want a reward for that.
and also, this is WoW: http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.c...lthbar_web.jpg
Surprised ? You should't. It's the system default healt bar WHICH YOU TURN ON/OFF

Solracht, I get your point.... And I to will play without aggro icons, but most everyone will play with them on.. And when your in a party and you aggro stuff people are going to be like YOU NOOB, stuff like that. When your out adventuring your not going to go to the wiki every time you see a mob. You are just going to try and kill it or run around it. The only time iv used a wiki was for locations of nms and quests and or maps if I didn't have them. Thats why they already have a color system as well for tough, weak and what not. What has changed is the experience you will have with the game and the people. There is no longer a surprise for you, its also going to be pointless to be playing with the icon off.

All this fuss over a fucking icon that you can toggle lol wow.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I 'liked' this thread.

I wish Yoshi would just explain the game and its new direction to us. What is the overall big picture? Which concepts of the original design are you going to be minimising? Which ideas will you be maintaining? So far all we've got is the implementation of a few features which change the fabric of the existing game (aggro indicators etc) and the promise of several new features (auto-attack and companies) which seem to suggest a divergence from the "fantasy reality sandbox" type game FFXIV was originally going for and changing into a more WoW-player friendly themepark game.

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Yea I agree for the most part. I would like to know some answers about the direction. We still don't even know how jobs will be implemented or any other battle adjustments besides AA(which I hated they chose that route but meh).

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

7 years of FF XI,i think i learned to learn a lot in the meanwhile.
And i don't still see nothing bad in a icon you can turn off.
And yes, indicators like that is a standard like now.
And again, you can turn it off, so what's your point ? Oh yeah, you want a reward for that.
and also, this is WoW: http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.c...lthbar_web.jpg
Surprised ? You should't. It's the system default healt bar WHICH YOU TURN ON/OFF

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90% of players Have the icon on.
10% have it off

8 players in a party doing a NM

1 player have the "icon off"

He goes and get attack by 10 mobs and kill everyone.

his party kick him calls him a noob and everyone hate him.

No icon, no information for no one

Player get attack and kill everyone.

Everyone in party goes holy ???? what happen "10 mobs attack us from no where i guess they do link" oh well let's try again and kill them first.

So at the end there no point if you can turn it off if 90% would have it on.

I guess if you had it on you save 15-30min i don't really care at this point but why not make it so when you target a mob you see all the info not just have it out there 24.7 -.-