Conjecture Question..Any evidence to support/reject this theory concerning Echo?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Wouldn't it be an interesting sub-plot if a primal entity from the void took an interest in the Woken races? We don't have to summon them. Ever. They'd just try their damndest to tempt us; you could have an entire storyline built around The Warriors of Light trying to stop another group of Woken from making a huge mistake.

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For a minute I thought you were talking about the voidgate...

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...oh crap!

/atomos

This theory doesn't hold much water, and there are a couple of simple reasons for it without even needing to dig heavily into 1.0 lore.

1) Yoshi has confirmed himself that Louis tucked us away in a pocket dimension for 5 years in order to avoid the calamity. You would have to believe that Yoshi himself would lie about this, and you know how he is about lying and following through with promises.

2) Whether 1.0 was witnessed with the Echo or firsthand, either way our characters and we as players don't get to witness the past 5 years and have to fill in the gaps ourselves. So what's the benefit of saying it was the Echo? All that means to us as players is that it cheapens the entire experience of 1.0. Oh, sorry, that whole thing was just the Echo so even though it all seemed to matter pretty much everything you did couldn't change the past anyways. From a storytelling standpoint, it's a huge copout and a giant disservice to loyal 1.0 players. Yoshi even said himself in an interview that one of his goals since taking over was to make the individual player feel more important to the story.

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Originally Posted by Jacien

My personal belief was that it was a developer's oversight. The city-state quests and events get so convoluted with all the Echo-jumping, it'd be hard to keep plotholes like that at bay.

Maybe when Minfilia says you can interact with objects when Echo-jumping you can also somehow manifest them when you come back? But nothing concrete has ever been stated about it.

Which is why the style of story telling is more direct in ARR and a while back last year it was mentioned that the original city-state plotlines were essentially scrapped (most likely referring to the style of story telling). It's not saying that they didn't happen, it's just that since it literally happened years ago, a good amount of it is no longer relevant in post-Calamity Eorzea.

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it's a little to convenient for the devs if we just throw it away as an oversight, as the same thing happens in both Ul'dah's and Gridania's storylines for the Flower and Treant Vine respectivly, not to mention the reverse happens in LL Treasures of the Main. When you get lent the firearm, by an unnamed Corpral, and proceed to take Sthalmann's firing stance provoking an echo jump thorugh Reyner. The gun is then taken away from you by a Roegadyn named Mannskoen. When the echo ends you no longer have the gun... Something is fishy about the Echo, and I think Mjollnir is on to something

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Originally Posted by Kayokane

it's a little to convenient for the devs if we just throw it away as an oversight, as the same thing happens in both Ul'dah's and Gridania's storylines for the Flower and Treant Vine respectivly, not to mention the reverse happens in LL Treasures of the Main. When you get lent the firearm, by an unnamed Corpral, and proceed to take Sthalmann's firing stance provoking an echo jump thorugh Reyner. The gun is then taken away from you by a Roegadyn named Mannskoen. When the echo ends you no longer have the gun... Something is fishy about the Echo, and I think Mjollnir is on to something

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I agree. The quality of writing is too good for these to be plot-holes and oversights.

Yeah, my second paragraph in that post talks about it a bit more in case you missed it.

Either way, I'm looking forward to how there's less "having the players fill in the gaps" when it comes to the story.

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

This theory doesn't hold much water, and there are a couple of simple reasons for it without even needing to dig heavily into 1.0 lore.

1) Yoshi has confirmed himself that Louis tucked us away in a pocket dimension for 5 years in order to avoid the calamity. You would have to believe that Yoshi himself would lie about this, and you know how he is about lying and following through with promises.

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I apologize, in no way did I intend to call Yoshi-P a liar...

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2) ... Oh, sorry, that whole thing was just the Echo so even though it all seemed to matter pretty much everything you did couldn't change the past anyways.

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While, Im not looking to support my argument, I find it interesting to note that no matter what we did, we couldn't stop dalamud from decending....

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Originally Posted by Lady

I apologize, in no way did I intend to call Yoshi-P a liar...

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No, no need to apologize. I was only trying to establish a point and wasn't trying to accuse you in any way.

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While, Im not looking to support my argument, I find it interesting to note that no matter what we did, we couldn't stop dalamud from decending....

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I suppose the big difference for me is, in the firsthand experience situation, you're in the thick of everything, your blood and sweat went into protecting Eorzea from harm, and people respect you for your efforts. When you return from that after 5 years, people are expecting you, and you know you were there to the end and you can take pride in that and use it as a jumping off point.

Whereas in the Echo situation, you wake up and realize that oh..it was just one long flashback dream.. Not only would that be more complicated to technically explain from a storytelling standpoint, but it also feels far less rewarding to the player, realizing that the value of all your efforts have been diminished. The events all may have actually happened, but it also turns out that you, as a player, weren't actually there like you thought, and your efforts never actually mattered. Personally, learning all this upon entering ARR would take the wind out of my sails very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Lady

I find it interesting to note that no matter what we did, we couldn't stop dalamud from decending....

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I think this fact goes to illustrate a specific point in SE's place as a storyteller. It's meant to emphasize either:

• The nature of the Archons as more fallible than end-all Godly Incarnation
• The nature of the Twelve as more fallible than end-all Godly
• The true power of the Primals as compared to The Twelve
• The true power of the descendants of the Allagan civilization

I think it's a combination of all of them, really. I think the Twelve are less omnipotent than we think of them, that the Primals are more akin to them than not, that the Archons just have powers we wouldn't expect, possibly granted through contact with their "primals" among The Twelve, that the Allagan were more in tune to the true nature of all these beings than we are (which heightens the drama because even that couldn't save them) - and that when we think of the modern Allagan descendants and contemporaries, such as van Darnus, it's reminiscent of the Zilart of FFXI.

And all of this has to be understood through the lens of one thing: Under the threat of a primal, the in-game characters used it as a call to arms and saw them as an obstacle to be overcome. Under the threat of an Ascian, they hid from sight and required a change of pants. That's sure to come up again.

I can't speculate beyond that, really, because it all has to do with what's to come and I prefer attempting to understand the full truth of what has already passed.

The other thought too is that from SE's point of view: FFXIV has been one long nightmare, and finally its over (fingers crossed)

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realizing that the value of all your efforts have been diminished

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And I guess for a lot of people this is true. IMO however the echo has always showed us something we needed to know.. so I wouldn't feel that my efforts were diminished, I'd be more interested in why it was important for us to know all this happened 5 years ago.

Disclaimer: Again, I'm not a pro at interpreting Lore/symbolism/etc. Usually got pretty bad grades at any film/art interpretation. (I'm still embarassed over comparing the Short Story "The Lottery" to Nazi Germany in a 5 page report. rofl) Always got nice effort grades but the grade that actually counted was never better than a low B.

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Originally Posted by Lady

IMO however the echo has always showed us something we needed to know.. so I wouldn't feel that my efforts were diminished, I'd be more interested in why it was important for us to know all this happened 5 years ago.

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This is what I like about the Echo. It allows us to consciously go back and relive events in order to attain a better understanding of them. We did this several times over the course of 1.0 and I enjoyed it. If this is how 1.0 was presented, then I would be on board with the theory.

However, 1.0 was presented as reality, not as an Echo. Since this is the case, I think that myself and many others would feel cheated out of the experience that we took part in.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I think the Twelve are less omnipotent than we think of them, that the Primals are more akin to them than not

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I don't think that we have seen what the Twelve are really capable of, but you may have a point in saying that they have similarities to the Primals.

Both the Twelve and the Primals rely on drawing power from Hydaelyn's life force to be physically summoned. Over the course of 1.0, the beastmen tribes were summoning their Primals over and over, each time draining Hydaelyn's life force. We adventurers were killing those same Primals over and over, and every time a Primal was defeated, their life force was absorbed by Bahamut, encased in the falling Dalamud.

At the time that the Twelve were finally summoned at end of 1.0, Hydaelyn was drained, and the life force that the Twelve had to pull from was drastically limited. Bahamut, on the other hand, had been constantly absorbing this life force the entire time, becoming extremely powerful in the process.

So what we saw in the final cutscene was an extremely weakened Twelve going up against extremely supercharged Elder Primal. You could say the odds were stacked unfairly, in this case. This makes me wonder how the balance of power truly sits, or if it is always in a state of constant flux.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I think the Twelve are less omnipotent than we think of them.

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And I think you were right to compare them to the Greek gods in this regard.

Y'see, the Greek gods weren't really all-knowing, or all-powerful. They were definitely mighty, in both intelligence and power. However, they were not almighty. This is the difference between them, and say, Jehovah/YHWH/Allah, who is described as being omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. We tend to attribute these characteristics with all beings that are given the title 'god' or 'God', however, that is not always the case.

But I'm going to shut up now before I say something to offend someone.