Lifetime Subscription

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Originally Posted by Abriael

:rolleyes: here comes the "don't try anything new please!" brigade.



You'd be *extremely* surprised.



It's offered in games that don't really have any less quality (and we don't really know the "quality" of this game until launch anyway, please, let's keep the blind faith out of this discussion, shall we?).

And no. No matter the quality. No game would be worth over 1000 bucks for a lifetime.



That's the same a year costs on other games, yet they offer the option. There's a lot of difference between getting $150 from a customer and getting double or almost all in a nice initial bundle of cash, that can then be reinvested in expansion/evolution and other games.

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There's nothing new about lifetime subs, most games offer them then go f2p within a year lol

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

There's nothing new about lifetime subs, most games offer them then go f2p within a year lol

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Yeah obviously the lifetime subs thing caused that to happen (and not because the game itself sucks).

That pretty much enforces the importance of such an option, because they made more money from the subs before it went F2P.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Um... why?

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Cause it would be a massive loss for blizzard. Lifetime subs are a good idea at release if company needs money fast like they did when STO came out. But if you check FFXIV's history and how almost every AAA MMO is going to F2P after a certain time i don't think there would be that much ppl paying for a lifetime at release anymore.

I doubt we gonna see alot of lifetime subs in the future anyway.

It's like everyone assumes that because MMO is x years old every single player has been around since the very beginning.

It is not that common that people stick around with games since their inception. Yes it happens, yes they're there, but the vast majority of players you come across in these games are people that have joined within the last couple of years. Many of the veteran players quit long ago.

simply because of maths if this mmo success just as wow/ffxi did and prevails as many years as wow/ffxi, the amount of money earnt will be higher. 250€ lifetime = +/- 2 years of subscription vs 9/10 years of ffxi/wow.... I have high hopes on FFXIV to sucess as its predecesors. It implies much more money in long terms

The question becomes will they do it?

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Standard option - $15/m

Month 1) $30 2) $60 3) $90 4) $120 5) $150 6) $180 7) $210 8) $240 9) $270 10) $300 ... ... ... 20) $600

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Lifetime= $300 bucks period
1 Year= Say.. 100 ( save 20 bucks a Year)

100*10/mo= $1000 per person life time

$300 per person Lifetime

300 *500,000 Players ( just saying if everyone does it) $150,000,000 10/yr

1000* 500,000 players ( same as above in Parenthesis and that's if all 500,000 were legacy lolz, so this number will be higher) $ 500,000,000 10/yr

I don;t care if they do a Lifetime Option, because it be cheaper for everyone, but in a business perspective 500 mil> 150 mil.

That of course there's a " Terms and Conditions to the Lifetime Sub" to where you have to play x amount of days to continue this sub, then the numbers could vary with the Lifetime sub.

I highly doubt there will be 500k like in FFXI did in it's peak times, but you never know, besides 150,000,000 lifetime is still good ( if they retain 500k subs for that long or even hit 500k :P)

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

It's not really a gamble. The customer will only see savings if they stick around... if they don't they may have just paid MORE. ;)

It's as close to a win-win as there ever will be when it comes to P2P MMOs

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I do agree with this, If they do they do, if they don't they don't. It really doesn't matter to me as long as the game is awesome 10 bucks a month is still worth the awesomeness! :D

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

Cause it would be a massive loss for blizzard..

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Again why?

I think the real reason its not offered is because there's simply no market for it. :P

I seriously doubt that offering lifetime subs contributes to a game going F2P. It sounds like a "snowball" argument. That anything that SE does that's outside conventional wisdom will go on to lead to the game's ultimate failure.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

The question becomes will they do it?



Lifetime= $300 bucks period
1 Year= Say.. 100 ( save 20 bucks a Year)

100*10/mo= $1000 per person life time

$300 per person Lifetime

300 *500,000 Players ( just saying if everyone does it) $150,000,000 10/yr

1000* 500,000 players ( same as above in Parenthesis and that's if all 500,000 were legacy lolz, so this number will be higher) $ 500,000,000 10/yr

I don;t care if they do a Lifetime Option, because it be cheaper for everyone, but in a business perspective 500 mil> 150 mil.

That of course there's a " Terms and Conditions to the Lifetime Sub" to where you have to play x amount of days to continue this sub, then the numbers could vary with the Lifetime sub.

I highly doubt there will be 500k like in FFXI did in it's peak times, but you never know, besides 150,000,000 lifetime is still good ( if they retain 500k subs for that long or even hit 500k :P)

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If you're going to use math in retaliation to my math, at least use realistic figures. No not every single person is going to do it. If you work in accounting or marketing or any executive branch for this sort of thing, you don't expect "everyone does it" and that's the problem with what you guys are saying. You are making poor assumptions. You have to take in data from what is happening and what has happened in the past. There are many variables to take into consideration and you guys are taking in one or two of them from the most unlikely of scenarios.

If every single player purchased a lifetime sub and every single player played for 10 years. Yeah, that would be bad.

This is not ever going to happen.

So you take into consideration all figures such as how long does the average player play for, how long will they stick around, how will players who do not purchase the lifetime sub option balance out, how much data will be expended in this amount of time, etc.

You forget some other basic things as well, such as players indecisive about whether or not they like the game yet and spending around $45 in monthly subs before actually making up their mind and purchasing a lifetime sub.

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Originally Posted by Kallivis

If you're going to use math in retaliation to my math, at least use realistic figures. No not every single person is going to do it. If you work in accounting or marketing or any executive branch for this sort of thing, you don't expect "everyone does it" and that's the problem with what you guys are saying. You are making poor assumptions. You have to take in data from what is happening and what has happened in the past. There are many variables to take into consideration and you guys are taking in one or two of them from the most unlikely of scenarios.

If every single player purchased a lifetime sub and every single player played for 10 years. Yeah, that would be bad.

This is not ever going to happen.

So you take into consideration all figures such as how long does the average player play for, how long will they stick around, how will players who do not purchase the lifetime sub option balance out, how much data will be expended in this amount of time, etc.

You forget some other basic things as well, such as players indecisive about whether or not they like the game yet and spending around $45 in monthly subs before actually making up their mind and purchasing a lifetime sub.

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Lol, I know not everyone isn't going to do it. that's why I applied Legacy to all, I could do the same with everyone not being Legacy and it would change both figures of Lifetime and 10 yr but the distance apart would be the same.

I know everyone won't do the same thing :P. and alot of things will vary the numbers 1/4 of the Population could go lifetime, 1/4th 1 year, 1/4th 6 months, 1/4th monthly. Numbers would be hard to crunch without know what everyone is doing, and the only people that can determine that is SE.

What I posted was just merely an example, but everything can change when it comes down to Official figures. Really the math isn't my concern as to what they do, as long as the game is good, it's worth my 10 bucks a month =).

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

Cause it would be a massive loss for blizzard. Lifetime subs are a good idea at release if company needs money fast like they did when STO came out. But if you check FFXIV's history and how almost every AAA MMO is going to F2P after a certain time i don't think there would be that much ppl paying for a lifetime at release anymore.

I doubt we gonna see alot of lifetime subs in the future anyway.

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Lifetime subs continue to be offered and will continue to be offered even when MMORPGs go "free to play", simply because they don't go "free to play".

They go Hybrid, that implies a large difference with the free to play model. All MMORPGs that go hybrid still involve a complimentary subscription that is normally quite desirable, and lifetime subs include that.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Can we have it? Pretty please? :D

It works very well both for the developer (that can get a nice bundle of money on the short term from people that often would quit anyway on the long term) and for the customer, that can play all he wants without worrying one bit about monthly fees for the rest of his gaming life.

For those not familiar with lifetime memberships. It's simply a subscription option in which you pay a good chunk of money (normally around $150/300 depending on the game) all at once, and then you're considered subscribed for life. No more worrying about monthly fees.

It's great value for those that decide to go for it and feel that they'll stick with the game for a long time.

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I believe it was you that was pushing hard for in game rmt a couple months so you could trade Gil for subscriptions. You could probably make enough money to play for a month if you beg out side of a 7-11 for 30 mins a month if your short on cash. I'm glad that se wants just monthly sub fee at this point and hope it stays that way. Most other games have all that cash shop, tiered membership, free to play, pay to win junk. I really just want to play a game with a straight forward subscription plan.

Lol, I don't think any one interested in a life time subscription has any concern about cash flow. ;)

And a lifetime sub is as simple as it gets... Remember all that hassle with switching to 30 day subs so you could keep playing and all the people who ended up having their game blacked out for days because they didn't follow directions exactly right? All that goes away if you only have to pay once. I don't know why you're connecting lifetime subs with paying gil for subs or having a cash shop... They're in no way connected.

It's just a different kind of sub.

Life time sub would not benefit this game in the long run, initially they would get a nice boost, but than 3-4 years down the road there would be very little money left since I would imagine 60-70% of players would pay 300 bucks for a life time sub, so in 3-4 years there would not be that much money coming into this game so the support would die down and that would not be a good thing for a new mmo.

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Originally Posted by AdorraEloom

Life time sub would not benefit this game in the long run, initially they would get a nice boost, but than 3-4 years down the road there would be very little money left since I would imagine 60-70% of players would pay 300 bucks for a life time sub, so in 3-4 years there would not be that much money coming into this game so the support would die down and that would not be a good thing for a new mmo.

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You have a good imagination....

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Originally Posted by AttacKat

Just need to make a minor correction if I may.

I don't know why you guys keep using the $120/yr basis. To use this figure, it automatically assumes ONLY LEGACY members are allowed to sign up for the lifetime option, which of course, will bring on more whiners.

Therefore, the proper yearly cost should be $180.

BTW, as much as we like to see it happen to FFXIV, no one version of game is going to last 20 years. 20 years ago, we just started playing DOOM on 640x480. :D

jc

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I would like to add that $180 for one year is a lot. Being that I am an Xbox live member the yearly fee is $60 dollars, and add the fact you can play any game for one year for that price. If they did a one year sub fee. It would have to be at least 60 or below.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Lol, I don't think any one interested in a life time subscription has any concern about cash flow. ;)

And a lifetime sub is as simple as it gets... Remember all that hassle with switching to 30 day subs so you could keep playing and all the people who ended up having their game blacked out for days because they didn't follow directions exactly right? All that goes away if you only have to pay once. I don't know why you're connecting lifetime subs with paying gil for subs or having a cash shop... They're in no way connected.

It's just a different kind of sub.

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He's suggesting a lifetime sub to save money hence my helping him find a way to pay monthly. In a past thread he showed a lot of support for buying subs with Gil once again making me think maybe he don't have much money.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

He's suggesting a lifetime sub to save money hence my helping him find a way to pay monthly. In a past thread he showed a lot of support for buying subs with Gil once again making me think maybe he don't have much money.

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It is a savings but only if you stick with the game. If I paid 300 dollars, and then quit in a year or two, I lose.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

It is a savings but only if you stick with the game. If I paid 300 dollars, and then quit in a year or two, I lose.

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Well I don't think he's suggesting it so he can pay and quit,lol...

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

Well I don't think he's suggesting it so he can pay and quit,lol...

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It's a gamble yeah... :D But more for the player than the SE who wins either way. :)

I think most of the reservations people have with the idea is the assumption that people won't quit. Another assumption is that everyone who gets a lifetime sub will start with one and no one will go for the shorter subs. But actually, most people won't go for lifetime subs, and if they do go for lifetime subs it will be later and the savings will actually be smaller...

There are multiple ways for SE to win with Lifetime subs, and they only lose if you stick with the game which is really a win!

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

It's a gamble yeah... :D But more for the player than the SE who wins either way. :)

I think most of the reservations people have with the idea is the assumption that people won't quit. Another assumption is that everyone who gets a lifetime sub will start with one and no one will go for the shorter subs. But actually, most people won't go for lifetime subs, and if they do go for lifetime subs it will be later and the savings will actually be smaller...

There are multiple ways for SE to win with Lifetime subs, and they only lose if you stick with the game which is really a win!

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It's a gamble yeah... :D But more for the player than the SE who wins either way. :)

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I have to agree with this to a degree, 1 part of me is yes, the Customer will lose if they put in the 300 bucks worth Minimum, The other part of me Feels that Why would Customers buy a Lifetime Sub,but in the end they didn't like the game or just doesn't have the time for it.

It all depends on the User, their playtime and if they like the game. If their Playtime is limited, a lifetime Option wouldn't be best, If your a hardcore player ( me being Semi-Hardcore), and you know for a fact that this is the game you want to invest in, then this deal is for you.

Something tells me though that they won't do this option, but if they did people have to really sit down and think if this option will benefit them in the long run. Will you lose money? or get your money's worth? In the end it depends on our lifestyle that will determine the option we choice.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

:rolleyes: here comes the "don't try anything new please!" brigade.

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It's not new because MMOs have done it before. Where's the guarantee the game will even last a year? Let alone multiple years to justify it? Will the benefits travel to FFXI when/if ARR shuts down prematurely and invalidating your lifetime sub?

It's not about "trying something new" it's about common sense, it's like SWTOR offering lifetime sub and we seen what happened, it'd cause more problems for SE than help honestly and as said it is usually offered early on/launch only because it boosts income and we already have something similar:

Legacy.

Which no one complained about the removal of or fighting against it. Life time discount for as long as ARR run you're already paying significantly less a year than most people who'll be playing. They're good options if you know the MMO will be around to justify it because people will complain and expect compensation of equal or greater value if/when the game closes out prematurely. So it's more of a gamble than losing out on money because you don't really lose your money if you got the service you paid for then and there unless the game goes kaput shortly after like so many MMOs have.

The only gamble is offering it at all in a time of uncertainty for MMORPGs.

Do you Starlord, Take FFXIV:ARR to be your MMO, to play as long as you both shall live? ;)

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Originally Posted by Elexia

It's not new because MMOs have done it before. Where's the guarantee the game will even last a year? Let alone multiple years to justify it? Will the benefits travel to FFXI when/if ARR shuts down prematurely and invalidating your lifetime sub?

It's not about "trying something new" it's about common sense, it's like SWTOR offering lifetime sub and we seen what happened, it'd cause more problems for SE than help honestly and as said it is usually offered early on/launch only because it boosts income and we already have something similar:

Legacy.

Which no one complained about the removal of or fighting against it. Life time discount for as long as ARR run you're already paying significantly less a year than most people who'll be playing. They're good options if you know the MMO will be around to justify it because people will complain and expect compensation of equal or greater value if/when the game closes out prematurely. So it's more of a gamble than losing out on money because you don't really lose your money if you got the service you paid for then and there unless the game goes kaput shortly after like so many MMOs have.

The only gamble is offering it at all in a time of uncertainty for MMORPGs.

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For once, I agree with you! :O

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Do you Starlord, Take FFXIV:ARR to be your MMO, to play as long as you both shall live? ;)

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LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!! Maybe ;) I have to think on it :P.

I don't trust Lifetime Subscription but I am willing to pay $120 a year. :D

Lifetime subs mean one thing. The game is not good enough to warrant a subscription and will be going free to play within the year. Know this fact: Every single MMO that has ever offered a lifetime subscription option has later gone free to play. Is this what you want? Think about it.

P.S. ~ Abriael, you are starting to become very Rokien-esque

Elexia... always the pessimist... er realist. 8) If you click around, most people are feeling a bit more optimistic. What Abriel's suggestion actually says is that "Hey, there, let's assume the game is going to succeed for multiple years."

That's what is so annoying.. ;) But when you think about it, it already has lasted in a crap state for 2... so, I think the assumption is pretty safe. Call me crazy.

I've stuck with one MMO for 8 years... so I'm not afraid of committing.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Elexia... always the pessimist... er realist. 8) If you click around, most people are feeling a bit more optimistic. What Abriel's suggestion actually says is that "Hey, there, let's assume the game is going to succeed for multiple years."

That's what is so annoying.. ;)

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Games that are good enough to survive several years or longer don't offer lifetime subscription packages. They don't have to.

One thing to consider is, are there any mmos on the market at the moment with a lifetime sub that haven gone f2p? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, honestly lifetime subs seem like nothing more than a means to rake in as much money as possible before they inevitably go f2p with a cash shop. The developers think well if we can get this base money on top of people subbing it'll give us a nice boost of revenue, then when we decide to go f2p we'll just offer some game credits so they can buy items from out shop while still offering them benefits for lifetime sub.

Lifetime subs honestly don't work because it's less of a lifetime sub and more of a nail in the coffin as it pretty much dates the downfall of the game in a sense. Then of course i"m certain that lifetime itself isn't even true and there is a lot of legal talk in the contract that people never read such as "at any time the developers have the right to revoke your lifetime subscription" or "Lifetime does not mean lifetime and at the inevitable shutdown of the game your lifetime subscription will be revoked." Maybe if I can find any contracts that involve "lifetime subs" I'll come back and edit it but honestly people might see lifetime sub as a good idea but if you read everything behind it I"m sure it's only a means to earn quick cash over people willing enough to think they'll have access to the game for a lifetime.

@Airget There are, STO for example.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

I believe it was you that was pushing hard for in game rmt a couple months so you could trade Gil for subscriptions. You could probably make enough money to play for a month if you beg out side of a 7-11 for 30 mins a month if your short on cash. I'm glad that se wants just monthly sub fee at this point and hope it stays that way. Most other games have all that cash shop, tiered membership, free to play, pay to win junk. I really just want to play a game with a straight forward subscription plan.

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Aside the silly personal attack and second guessing that just shows how weak your arguments are, how exactly is the existence of *options* changing the straight forward subscription plan for you?

The existence of a lifetime subscription option does not in any way change the possibility of paying for your subscription monthly.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

It's not new because MMOs have done it before.

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It's new because FFXIV and FFXI didn't do it before, and we know very well how some people here receive things that Square enix never tried. Because if Square Enix doesn't do it, it's not good.

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Where's the guarantee the game will even last a year? Let alone multiple years to justify it? Will the benefits travel to FFXI when/if ARR shuts down prematurely and invalidating your lifetime sub?

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Lifetime subs are a decision that lays on the customer. If you decide to support a product, it's your decision, no one forced you, and it's your sole responsibility.

Besides, anyone with half a shred of logic would know that the possibility of this game "shutting down" within a year is absolutely negligible. There are plenty options before that. At worst it would go hybrid, and even with a hybrid business model a lifetime sub retains its value.

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It's not about "trying something new" it's about common sense, it's like SWTOR offering lifetime sub and we seen what happened

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Only, they did not offer it. Oops.

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Legacy.

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Which is a radically different option, offered to a radically different target, and as such is comparing apples to escalators.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

@Airget There are, STO for example.

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I think you might have confused what Airget was trying to say.

Just to clarify for people who don't know, STO offered a lifetime sub and is now F2P. Every game that has offered it has done the same. LotRO, STO, Champions Online, DCUO... The list goes on and on.

The most recent game to do this was The Secret World. Lifetime sub option was for like 200 bucks, and then within a couple months of release went f2p. Lifetime subs are scams. If an MMO company offers one, watch out, they are trying to give it to you up the tailpipe.

Not a bad idea actually but I am pleased with the deal I have been given as a legacy member.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I think you might have confused what Airget was trying to say.

Just to clarify for people who don't know, STO offered a lifetime sub and is now F2P. Every game that has offered it has done the same. LotRO, STO, Champions Online, DCUO... The list goes on and on.

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None of those games went free to play. They all went hybrid. And on hybrid games subscriptions still hold a value.

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The most recent game to do this was The Secret World. Lifetime sub option was for like 200 bucks, and then within a couple months of release went f2p. Lifetime subs are scams. If an MMO company offers one, watch out, they are trying to give it to you up the tailpipe.

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You may want to do some fact checking before going around spreading gross generalizations. The Secret World went hybrid (which is not the same as free to play) seven months after its release.

TSW went b2p btw, and STO is f2p. But they had to give an option to give back the livetime subs after launch anyways.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

TSW went b2p btw

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No. It's hybrid. As it offers a complimentary subscription.

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and STO is f2p.

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Again no, hybrid. You can subscribe if you so wish. No game that was previously P2P went F2P.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No. It's hybrid. As it offers a complimentary subscription.



Again no, hybrid. You can subscribe if you so wish. No game that was previously P2P went F2P.

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they are free to play(with restrictions) but you can still play for free.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

None of those games went free to play. They all went hybrid. And on hybrid games subscriptions still hold a value.

You may want to do some fact checking before going around spreading gross generalizations. The Secret World went hybrid (which is not the same as free to play) seven months after its release.

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If you can download an MMO client and play it without paying for the privilege, it is free to play. Fact. Which is why they all call themselves free to play. It doesn't matter what other options they offer since ALL f2p MMOs offer alternate pay options whether that be optional sub, cash shop, or mix. They have to make money off the game somehow.

The bottom line is any game good enough to have longevity on the subscription model does not offer lifetime. The only games that do are the ones that can't make it and every last MMO that has offered this option has gone f2p sooner or later. Prove me wrong.


Gross generalization my ass.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

they are free to play(with restrictions) but you can still play for free.

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That doesn't matter.

Free to play games are games in which you have no restrictions (like Forsaken World for instance), and you pay by purchasing items or services in the cash shop.

Hybrid games are games in which free play is (often rather radically) restricted and you HAVE to either subscribe or to pay from the cash shop (often more than what a sub would entail) in order to enjoy the full content.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

If you can download an MMO client and play it without paying for the privilege, it is free to play. Fact. Which is why they all call themselves free to play. It doesn't matter what other options they offer since ALL f2p MMOs offer alternate pay options whether that be optional sub, cash shop, or mix. They have to make money off the game somehow.

The bottom line is any game good enough to have longevity on the subscription model does not offer lifetime. The only games that do are the ones that can't make it and every last MMO that has offered this option has gone f2p sooner or later. Prove me wrong.


Gross generalization my ass.

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I didn't know your ass was a gross generalization. Nor I cared to know, mind you.

The difference matters. Free to Play, Hybrid and Pay to Play are widely accepted industry terms. Your personal definition is inconsequential.

There's an enormous difference in how Free to Play and Hybrid games handle the access and monetization of their content.

It's a fact that Hybrid games retain a subscription, that has a value, thus a lifetime subscription retains a value, whether you like it or not. Your definition of "scam" is incorrect, and indeed a gross generalization.

Scratch that. IT's not even a generalization. It's just plainly false, as none of the previously Pay to Play titles went actually free to play.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I didn't know your ass was a gross generalization. Nor I cared, mind you.

It matters. Free to Play, Hybrid and Pay to Play are widely accepted industry terms. Your personal definition is inconsequential.

There's an enormous difference in how Free to Play and Hybrid games handle the access and monetization of their content.

It's a fact that Hybrid games retain a subscription, that has a value, thus a lifetime subscription retains a value, whether you like it or not. Your definition of "scam" is incorrect, and indeed a gross generalization.

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all i know is there are a crap load of people on the secret world forums who are pissed