Counter to Elitism

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's a way to counter "elitism" as everyone understands it.
In fact, the real problem is how people understand "casual play" and "hardcore play".
Casual players are not bad players, they just don't have several hours per day to invest on the game. Likewise, hardcore players are not necessarily good players.
I know people who can't properly do their job even if they spend hours and hours in the game.

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

Back in 1.XX, who deserved the better drop ? A party that could defeat Ifrit in 10 min without any casualties, or a party that killed it 10 times with a nearly full wipe each time ?

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This would be awesome, but than we would still have those that complain they cant get the best gear lol.

This is a MMO

They make money from your monthly fee

How do they keep you playing the game?

Grind (drop rate, exp, crafting, etc)

The longer it takes for you to achieve something in the game means more $$ for SE

will they make it easier for you to obtain gear or speed up the leveling rate (jobs or craft)

Nope

If everyone gets what they want then whats the point of playing

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

The longer it takes for you to achieve something in the game means more $$ for SE

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The longer it takes for you to repeat the same mindless events over and over waiting for a lucky drop, the greater the chances you'll get bored and just stop playing.

I've played FF XI since CoP, getting punished by the abysmal drop rate, boring events and insane number of items you need to get any gear worth mentionning. 6 years and two children later, I won't stand the same dumb system.

I really think that most players are like me, that they've reached adulthood, get a job, a family, and can't really spend 18 hours a day in the game just to bragg about a piece of gear...that will be useless several updates later, by the way...

I think SE need to find a way to keep those players in the game too.

As for the leveling system, it should be part of the exploration and missions. I really don't understand why every MMO I know just assume that scenario and levelling should be separated.

Offline games picked some mechanics from MMO, like grinding fest and ridiculous drop rate...maybe it should be the other way round, for once.

There's only a way to counter elitism. And it is to isolate, shun and generally ignore elitists.

They won't go away, but you'll feel a lot better after you'll stop caring about them.

There will always be elitists and casual people in mmos. Just play ARR and have fun Scratchs. :)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

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If this system were run by a nonhuman, it would easily punish the wrong people.

Let's say you have a PLD backed by a WHM. Despite the WHM's best efforts, sustaining the PLD becomes impossible. Too much healing rapidly depletes MP. The PLD finally eats dirt and the mob goes on a rampage, wiping the party.

The system says the WHM should be punished--

But wait.

The PLD didn't use damage mitigation abilities very efficiently. So, really, the PLD is to blame--

But wait!

This all could have been prevented if the BRD used Soul Voice and gave the WHM enough MP to see the battle through. The system would never have noticed the BRD is to blame--

BUT WAIT!

As it turns out, the BLMs were overcautious with nuking due to enmity concerns, but they could have safely dealt thousands more damage. The battle would have been over more quickly if not for the BLMs--

BUT WAIT!

The DRG dealt the bare minimum of damage necessary for reward then alt-tabbed to complain about immersion on the Lodestone. The system didn't realize it was being played by the DRG--

BUT WAIT!

You didn't invite a MNK. What's wrong with you?

BUT

WAIT!

The chat log reveals the WHM never once let the PLD cure himself: clear evidence of an incompetent WHM. So, the system was right all along in punishing the WHM.

Right?

Wrong.

It was a Salvage-style dungeon and the PLD never had his magic unlocked. Furthermore, the mob frequently inflicted amnesia and kept the PLD from effectively mitigating damage.

Is any programmable system sophisticated enough to measure all these variables and allot points fairly? No. It would be as superficial as a parser without any regard for context or non-numerical performance. "Knowing your job" would scarcely factor into it.

The game shouldn't be scoring individuals for party-based content anyway. That's the party's business. The game should only impose impartial measurements such as time trials or completion of objectives--something the whole party can work on. Otherwise, the game will devolve into a bunch of people playing together by themselves instead of cooperatively.

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Originally Posted by Scratchs

Just a random wish. I hope ARR incorporates features which discourages elitism and promotes casual players participating in more dungeons, other higher end activities.

For Example:

Perhaps a higher drop rate bonus when having a first time dungeon player in your group.

Bonus XP for entire party when grouping with a player with high rested time.

I'm sure theres many other ways, but basically giving incentive to group with casual players.

Thanks for reading :p

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You have to believe in the heart of the cards. Only then will you thwart elitisms merciless grasp.

I kinda think that this thread got hijacked by people posting things regarding the issue of what they believe "elitism" is and what it has meant to them throughout their experience with MMOS. (I'm not gonna lie, I was originally gonna jump on that bandwagon too, and not just cuz I feel that im hardcore or leet, but because I feel an MMO has to promote elitism to survive-for content, but ill digress)

I had to go back and address your original question OP and you bring up some interesting ideas...

It has been said that ARR will have a shifted focus to help out and accommodate more casual players, but from my understanding, it just seems like more spammable levequests/quests, making it more solo friendly, and potentially higher drop rates, a token based loot system for dungeons and level sync in certain content......NOW covering all that and taking it into account, when viewing your ideas.....it makes me wonder if the devs had this kinda stuff in mind for ARR as well, to cater to more casual players? I wonder this cuz your ideas actually promote more party play than anything, making it so that leet players are more apt or have some incentive to inviting a randy or newer (casual) person. It seems like a more revolutionary idea and change from more spammable solo stuff, or a fate system that everyone can play, or even level capped content....AND the more experienced/elite/hardcore players get more in the end?? It's a very great idea, if I say so myself. lol

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

This is a MMO

They make money from your monthly fee

How do they keep you playing the game?

Grind (drop rate, exp, crafting, etc)

The longer it takes for you to achieve something in the game means more $$ for SE

will they make it easier for you to obtain gear or speed up the leveling rate (jobs or craft)

Nope

If everyone gets what they want then whats the point of playing

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Unfortunately their current direction is more focused on getting more people to play than making them stay longer...

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Let's say you have a PLD backed by a WHM. Despite the WHM's best efforts, sustaining the PLD becomes impossible. Too much healing rapidly depletes MP. The PLD finally eats dirt and the mob goes on a rampage, wiping the party.

The system says the WHM should be punished--

But wait.

...

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Sorry, your post is a bit too long for me to quote it entirely, but you made a good point...except...you're only seeing the punishment side.
In your case, everybody died, there's already a penalty for the group. In fact a wipe is everyone's fault, even if Curing can be a major problem.

But let's say everyone starts with 0 points. Punishment is not an issue if we don't do negative values.

But wait !
The DRG dealt a great DPS, so he can get a better reward (There's no need to be a "minimum value for reward")

But wait !
The BLM also deat a lot of damage without being first on hate list, so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The BRD buffed the party accordingly (Ballad on mages, Paeon on DD, etc...) so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The PLD used damage mitigation well and lost only a few Hp per second, while staying up on the hate list. He should be rewarded too.

The system don't need to be overly precise, and shouldn't focus on punishment only.
Encourage people to play their job wisely, and they will learn to do it.

And you can keep an hamlet-type scoring to reward a good party as a whole.

But w

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Let's say you have a PLD backed by a WHM. Despite the WHM's best efforts, sustaining the PLD becomes impossible. Too much healing rapidly depletes MP. The PLD finally eats dirt and the mob goes on a rampage, wiping the party.

The system says the WHM should be punished--

But wait.

...

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Sorry, your post is a bit too long for me to quote it entirely, but you made a good point...except...you're only seeing the punishment side.
In your case, everybody died, there's already a penalty for the group. In fact a wipe is everyone's fault, even if Curing can be a major problem.

But let's say everyone starts with 0 points. Punishment is not an issue if we don't do negative values.

But wait !
The DRG dealt a great DPS, so he can get a better reward (There's no need to be a "minimum value for reward")

But wait !
The BLM also deat a lot of damage without being first on hate list, so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The BRD buffed the party accordingly (Ballad on mages, Paeon on DD, etc...) so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The PLD used damage mitigation well and lost only a few Hp per second, while staying up on the hate list. He should be rewarded too.

The system don't need to be overly precise, and shouldn't focus on punishment mainly. Encourage people to play their job wisely, and they will learn to do it.

And you can keep an hamlet-type scoring to reward a good party as a whole.

But wait !
You should have invited a MNK. I think dungeons should offer a little bonus if you avoid stacking jobs (The moreso when we'll have more jobs to play) :p

Also, someone with better gear is likely to put out more damage meaning they'd get more points than someone with not-so-great gear. Meaning the casuals would still suffer. This kind of reminds me of the levelling system 1.0 had when it first launched.

they must add a drop item from Kihimera each time you complete one of the raids soo you can exchance for piece of armor
like Pimal weapons this will turn Elitism outside down

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Originally Posted by Nayto

Unfortunately their current direction is more focused on getting more people to play than making them stay longer...

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People need to play before they can continue playing. We haven't quite mastered the art of bending the laws of time and space to our will yet.

soo everyone on full Darklight everyone happys... i prosed a motion to do it like 20 (Kihimera Nails) Tentative.... for a single piece of Darklight and body for 30
this will make people work his ass off on dugenon for awaile and everyone will be happy cos no need speedruns to get things done also open oportuninty to new people just have done few runs and get his desair items....
making every single dugenon colective points will just make everyones happy

Why not give the gear right away to the ppl without any dungeon, whats wrong about working on gear....

We could force everyone to use content finder, then all the elitists could do is scream to the heavens about how bad their luck in matchmaking is! mwahahahahaha!

But in all seriousness I don't think trying to stomp out elitism will do anything but hurt the game in the long run.

Also I think a distinction should be made between an elitist and a hardcore player, because there is a difference. A hardcore player is someone who spends more time and effort on a game than is the norm, while an elitist is someone who thinks anyone who isn't as leet as them doesn't deserve their time. You can have a hardcore player who's willing to help casuals and new players learn the ropes in a fight, but you typically won't find an elitist having anything to do with a casual or new player.
In other words even though elitists usually are (they damn well better be) hardcore players, being a hardcore player doesn't mean you're an elitist. It's all about the attitude. (Think rectangles and squares.)

Even accounting for the positive side, a system of measuring performance vs. reward would be oversimplified and arbitrary.

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The DRG dealt a great DPS, so he can get a better reward (There's no need to be a "minimum value for reward")

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There would have to be a minimum value of some kind. What distinguishes "great" DPS from "not-so-great" DPS? How else could the game possibly read and rate DPS performance?

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The BLM also deat a lot of damage without being first on hate list, so he should be rewarded too.

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What if the strategy depends on the BLM, or multiple BLMs, taking hate? What if the BLM is next on the hate list when the tank drops dead or disconnects (deliberately or not)? No system is dynamic enough to keep up with players' every strategy or eventuality.

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The BRD buffed the party accordingly (Ballad on mages, Paeon on DD, etc...) so he should be rewarded too.

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Again, no system is dynamic enough to know what players want, and it would be silly if it imposed a standard of "buffing accordingly." Does the system know when the DD could benefit more from Paeon or Minuet? What would it use to determine that? Hit rate? WS frequency?

And I can't argue with PLD.

Look, I wish we could have material reward for our individual performance. I'd revel in it. But without a thousand GMs monitoring every piece of content and reading chat logs 24/7, we will never get a system more sophisticated than a parser. You know parsers can't measure subjective data on "knowing your job" or "playing better," so people would be unfairly judged for doing something clever and breaking routine despite a successful event.

There is simply no way for the game to read and understand anything more complex than parser data. That's why I say, let the game only reward successes of the party collectively. No arbitrary reward system for the treasure coffers and no arbitrary reward system for the individual.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

Why not give the gear right away to the ppl without any dungeon, whats wrong about working on gear....

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You're not "working on gear", you're "hoping for a lucky roll".
In fact, they should implement a reward for the random command. If you roll a 999, you get a nice piece of gear.
Seems pretty stupid ? It's actually how the game worked in v1.xx.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Even accounting for the positive side, a system of measuring performance vs. reward would be oversimplified and arbitrary.

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Long post again :p

Monsters have a certain number of HP, dungeons have a certain amount of monster. So, there's a finite number of damage you can make over the course of the dungeon. The higher the percentage of HP you deplete, the better the DPS, simple.

I'm sorry, but any strategy where the BLM is supposed to take hits is a flaw in the game. For a mage, taking hits means dying, and dying can't be a strategy. Back in FFXI, some fights where done two times. First, in a "dry run", just to look how the fight goes without using items or 2h, dying, then retry. From a roleplay point of view (Which MMO should have more) it's pretty awkward.

For a dynamic system, think "Gambits" like FF XII. You can design severals "If...then..." sentences and when a player fulfill one sentence, you give him points. Higher priority sentences will yield more points. I tried to translate FFXI gameplay with a gambit system, and, suprisingly, with 15-20 sentences per job, you can cover almost any situation.

And if the programmed actions are too far from the real game, you can simply adjust the sentences without a big update.

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Originally Posted by Scratchs

Just a random wish. I hope ARR incorporates features which discourages elitism and promotes casual players participating in more dungeons, other higher end activities.

For Example:

Perhaps a higher drop rate bonus when having a first time dungeon player in your group.

Bonus XP for entire party when grouping with a player with high rested time.

I'm sure theres many other ways, but basically giving incentive to group with casual players.

Thanks for reading :p

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If you want to counter elites start playing better. They won't seem so great if you stop being so bad

As long as there's people who has the need to throw their e-dicks around and slap people with it (typical in end-game shells/guilds) elitism will always exist. No counters no prevention it's inevitable.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

As long as there's people who has the need to throw their e-dicks around and slap people with it (typical in end-game shells/guilds) elitism will always exist. No counters no prevention it's inevitable.

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Exactly. The only thing you can really do is just not play with the elites, find a group of ppl that have a similar agenda to yours or play with ppl that are known for helping others & being kind. Just let the elites play with the elites and you play with everyone you see to your liking.

Having an elite mentality and being a kind/considerate player are not mutually exclusive though guys. I don't really see FFXIV having a massive problem with this since the majority of content seems to be readily available to all players. Heck, in 1.0 the only true battle meant for so-called elites was maybe hard Nael (even then, it's just a fight). There was never really too much of a divide between elite and lesserplayers.

In FFXI it was an obvious thing. Here? I don't think it really exists to such a terrible degree.

In FFXI it was HNM what made the difference between hardcore and casuals and it was just the time factor. Alot of hardcore players been really friendly and helpfull they just been busy camping most of the time. Ofc there always been "elitists" around but you will have them everywhere just ignore them, they dont have fun cause they rarely have friends...

Where's Scarface Champion when you need him? I think he'd have the perfect response to this thread.

MMO's by nature, are not for casual gamers, and if you'r playing casually you should expect to miss some content and happily accept this. Please dont ruin gaming for the rest of us who have the time for MMO's. Please.

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Originally Posted by Grim_Lion

MMO's by nature, are not for casual gamers, and if you'r playing casually you should expect to miss some content and happily accept this. Please dont ruin gaming for the rest of us who have the time for MMO's. Please.

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^^Pretty much this.

And to all the people who want to do things at their own slow pace or want to skip doing certain content yet don't like feeling left behind as far as gaining loot/achievements, Skyrim is that way. ----->

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4636190395466987&pid=1.7

its the best thing i can think of...

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

^^Pretty much this.

And to all the people who want to do things at their own slow pace or want to skip doing certain content yet don't like feeling left behind as far as gaining loot/achievements, Skyrim is that way. ----->

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omg yes

why can't people understand this....

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Originally Posted by Grim_Lion

MMO's by nature, are not for casual gamers, and if you'r playing casually you should expect to miss some content and happily accept this. Please dont ruin gaming for the rest of us who have the time for MMO's. Please.

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Sorry, I must have missed the H (for Hardcore) in M.M.O.R.P.G. Oh wait...maybe it's because there isn't one.
And I still don't understand how "getting fucked by the RNG" is enjoyable.

You see, a dungeon is a content, a primal fight is a content.
Same dungeon over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over is...not.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sorry, I must have missed the H (for Hardcore) in M.M.O.R.P.G. Oh wait...maybe it's because there isn't one.
And I still don't understand how "getting fucked by the RNG" is enjoyable.

You see, a dungeon is a content, a primal fight is a content.
Same dungeon over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over is...not.

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Its called grinding

its how an MMO keeps you playing

if all the gear was handed to you after a month would you keep playing

and don't give me that social (chill / help with friends, etc etc) garbage

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

Its called grinding
its how an MMO keeps you playing
if all the gear was handed to you after a month would you keep playing
and don't give me that social (chill / help with friends, etc etc) garbage

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Grinding is boring, and a pretty lazy way to keep you playing.
And please...stop the "gear handed to you". Anytime someone says "random is bullshit", this reply bursts into the thread.

Don't you know any other way to give rewards ? Challenge, difficulty, long series of quests ? Does it ring a bell ?
I'd prefer getting my ass kicked for months before winning a fight and getting a reward than beating the crap out of a primal several times a day and still getting nothing.

This way, I'll know I need to improve myself to deserve my gear and not just waiting for a lucky roll.

And, by the way. "Social" is a very important part of an MMO. Otherwise, they just offer nothing compared to offline games, wether it is gameplay, scenario, world or characters.

The actual possibility of truly combating elitism aside, the best work-around I can see is for casual gamers to essentially have some manner of community outside of the game as well, to better bridge the time-gap and actually reduce the lack of experience through these networks. It doesn't actually take that much. Just have a party you normally work with that you can easily stay updated despite not making all the events. In-game features that would help this... probably some equally simple stuff like the old Vanguard-proposed Caravan system, allowing you to log in at your party's location, occasionally skip a small trigger or step of quest-chains (your journal being automatically updated given this choice), etc.

Honestly, the only way I'm going to trust someone new to a dungeon as much as someone experienced to the dungeon is if he or she is coming with people he/she can work well with, and I can trust as a group to fulfill their role. [Multiple consistent parties, one raid]

I'm sure there's a lot more that could expand on this, but I do think this is the right direction. The relatively strange bonuses that would force players with more time played to take on less frequent players for full bonuses doesn't seem nearly so much a service to the casual as some features actually aiding the casuals (or everyone, really, though their advantage is clearest to those who have less play-time available to them) directly.

The new "item level" system probably has a word for you.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Grinding is boring, and a pretty lazy way to keep you playing.
And please...stop the "gear handed to you". Anytime someone says "random is bullshit", this reply bursts into the thread.

Don't you know any other way to give rewards ? Challenge, difficulty, long series of quests ? Does it ring a bell ?
I'd prefer getting my ass kicked for months before winning a fight and getting a reward than beating the crap out of a primal several times a day and still getting nothing.

This way, I'll know I need to improve myself to deserve my gear and not just waiting for a lucky roll.

And, by the way. "Social" is a very important part of an MMO. Otherwise, they just offer nothing compared to offline games, wether it is gameplay, scenario, world or characters.

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If you make content harder, ppl will start to cry for nerfs...

So nobody actually read the OP at all, nice one.

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Originally Posted by Grim_Lion

MMO's by nature, are not for casual gamers, and if you'r playing casually you should expect to miss some content and happily accept this. Please dont ruin gaming for the rest of us who have the time for MMO's. Please.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

^^Pretty much this.

And to all the people who want to do things at their own slow pace or want to skip doing certain content yet don't like feeling left behind as far as gaining loot/achievements, Skyrim is that way. ----->

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i loled. i agree with these, but the topic is about elitism. But its been stated in the whole thread, you cant be rid of it. Your best bet is to maybe start your own shells that go at your own pace and if any elitists show up do what i do and give them the boot.We've had people say our shell would never even beat CC or AV with our set ups. With the same set ups we are getting the relic speed runs, even beating Garuda who for the longest time was giving everyone a hard time even with the cookiecutting way of drgs and blms and wars, and beat it with our own set up and now garuda is a cakewalk for us. So as far as i can see Elitists can suck it!

If they did that most players would just invite their noobie friends before random players anyway, that's what I'd do

To respond directly to the OP- Help is coming, but not rewards for inviting. Cross server content finder, lotting limitations, instant join mass battles and so on.

To reiterate the reality of elitism - Don't subject others to your inability to perform and you'll be fine. That's how to counter it. If you aren't ready to do Raven hard mode, don't join that pickup. On the other hand if your gear makes sense and isn't below being effective at whatever you are doing, no one actually cares.