Uh oh look out, a 10 year old game almost is declining in subs a little bit. Definitely crap. You see most on this forum will paint wow as crap, when the whole rest of the mmo sphere consider this game crap and xi a grind fest. People here think hating on wow is cool or something. Keep pretending that you only know what games are good cause I guarantee you that you are in the minority and it isn't just because "you know better". Wow doesn't have to be your cup of tea but it atleast deserves acknowledgement as the highest grossing game ever made and it's ability to withstand time. FFXiv looks amazing so far. Wow wasn't for me so I moved o. And I see a lot of potential in xiv, but I won't sit here and pretend there is nothing it can borrow from the most successful mmo ever madeQuote:
Originally Posted by YeaniNah
Yoshi suggests playing WOW for a year
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12-02-2012, 01:23 AMAzurus
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12-02-2012, 01:24 AMPreypacerQuote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
Does it look like WoW? No. But then neither does Rift or a number of other games that actually play very similarly to WoW. Graphics are not gameplay. Environment design is not gameplay.
Does it "feel" like WoW? I won't know that 'til I get a chance to play it myself. I know I've played myriad other MMOs that looked nothing like WoW, but still felt a lot like it.
Regardless, as I stated... my concerns are based on what Yoshi's said, and what he's explained. Not on what he's shown - since, in terms of gameplay we haven't seen a whole lot yet. -
12-02-2012, 01:26 AMVelhart
I could explain the concept of genres and MMO's again, but alas, the people have a hard time understanding how the video game industry works and only way they will understand is waiting for ARR to come out. The look at the outside and scream "WoW Clone!".
You know, you can do the same thing to Bioshock. "OMG! Bioshock is a total FPS clone! Look it uses the same type of interface as everyone else.
"Final Fantasy is clearly a copy of Dragon Quest." <-- People who have played both the first title of these, you know it isn't true, but they are both turn based battle games with almost the same setup and developers admitted they used inspiration. -
12-02-2012, 01:37 AMPreypacerIf that was directed at all at me, then you need to read my post again. I have not outright "looked at the outside and screamed "WoW Clone!". I've expressed concerns I have that they are moving more in that direction based on remarks and explanations Yoshi has given that clearly (and openly) indicate they are using WoW as the basis for a number of their gameplay systems and implementations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
The key words there are "expressed concerns". I'm not claiming anything is definite and can not do so 'til I've tried it myself. Regardless, the important thing to understand is that expressing concern for something is not the same as declaring that it has happened.
Saying "I hope Jim doesn't get into an accident due to the icy roads", is not the same as saying "Jim got into an accident due to the icy roads".
If my concerns prove unfounded - and I hope they do - you will see me breathe a satisfied sigh of relief about it.
I also realize and have seen how trying to implement something in one MMO because "it was very popular in another" is not always the best way to go. A lot that works great in WoW, does so because it's WoW. Just as things that work great in XI do so because it's XI, but likely wouldn't if shoe-horned into another game. Things that work great in Eve Online do so because it's Eve Online, but wouldn't automatically work if shoe-horned into another game. Each of those games are designed entirely around a core type of player experience, and each of their defining game systems were devised to better support that specific player experience.
Sometimes I get the impression that some people around here are far too "cut and dry" in their thinking, and look at things only surface deep. -
12-02-2012, 01:46 AMVirtuso
A decade or more ago, I read an interview with a dev, forgot who but I remember them being asked something like "What's the one most important thing to do in order to make a successful game" Or something like that and they answered "Play lots of other games, take the best things you like in them, then make it your own."
Sounds like someone we know? -
12-02-2012, 01:50 AMPreypacerAnd that's wise and solid advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtuso
Where it goes wrong is in how those ideas are implemented.
Ideas and inspiration are all well and good and motivational on paper. However, execution and implementation of those ideas is what matters at the end of the day. The best idea on paper can (and often does) fail on implementation. -
12-02-2012, 01:51 AMWarlockYou have way too many baseless concerns for your own good ..and baffles me that you can't have a feel of the game with the alpha footage as they have done battle and all in it and doesn't follow WoW at all ...they were inspired in basic technical things from WoW not the gameplay it remains to be an improved version of 1.0 FFXIV has strategy in it's battles WoW is beat the crap outta it asap because the bosses have a gazillion HP and you only see numbers flying up ,Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
as a matter of fact 1.0's speed runs were more WoW-clone than anything and Yoshi-P is getting rid of it -
12-02-2012, 02:01 AMPreypacerI can't understand what you don't understand. I've explained myself quite clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
My concerns are quite solidly based. They're derived from things that Yoshi has clearly and plainly said, in black and white, for all to see. There's no ambiguity.
Your counter-points are derived from what you choose to take away from videos that demonstrate none of those things Yoshi's discussed that have me concerned.
Yoshi has made several remarks/explanations about gameplay systems being implemented that were derived from WoW, and it has me concerned that might be going farther in the "WoW clone" direction than I'd personally like. There's really nothing to "understand" about it. What has been shown in the videos to date has not addressed or illustrated any of those things.
It's really quite easy to understand, when you actually bother to. Are you just being deliberately obtuse? -
12-02-2012, 02:07 AMFelisExample?Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
/10char -
12-02-2012, 02:12 AMPreypacerAre you kidding me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
- Cross server grouping - my experience with that in other MMOs (including and especially WoW) has been that it's not all it's cracked up to be, doesn't resolve issues it's intended to, and actually introduces new issues of its own.
- All instanced dungeons - removes an element of MMORPGs that I personally greatly enjoy, which is finding and then exploring some random cave, cavern, ruin, whatever off in the middle of nowhere.. seeing what's in there.
- "Strong guidance in all zones so people know where to go and what to do" - How will they do that? Does that mean a lot of hand-holding for even the simplest/most menial of tasks?
Just to name three.
Each of those things sound innocuous on their own. However, as I've explained, it's their implemenation that concerns me. If they take one of those ideas and rework them in a way that feels "right" in FFXIV and not copied wholesale and doesn't cheapen the experience, then great. My concerns are unwarranted.
However... until I see and get to experience those things hands-on for myself to decide either way, they remain concerns. Someone telling me what they assume they will or won't be does not change that.
Yoshi's made a number of statements describing systems being implemented in XIV that are inspired or derived from other MMOs, including WoW. I'm concerned about how those systems will be implemented and how they will affect the gameplay. I hope my concerns prove unfounded and it all "works out". That's it. That's all there is to it.
Never in my life have I had to 'defend myself' for expressing a concern over something. Good grief, people. Are some people around here seriously so protective of this game that someone even expressing personal concerns over certain things puts you into White Knight Fanboy, "I must protect the precious!" mode? FFS -
12-02-2012, 02:56 AMWarlockYou are asked for examples and all you come up with was already in 1.0? >_> your opinion goes out the window ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
cross server will only make it easier to get a party and get stuff done you don't like this idea because you are prolly one of those that demand people to pass their loot to someone else... -
12-02-2012, 02:57 AMVelhartIt wasn't pointed at you directly, but people are always too quick to call out at something just for the sake of it without any true base evidence. The video game industry has based itself around taking what works and making it better since day one. It is extremely rare to see a company make something completely original, it just doesn't happen "like that". You all set your standards at SE too high and because of that, you always lead yourself to disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
Honestly, the last time I have felt SE do something original was the ATB system from FFIV. Even then it was still based off the classic turn based system with a twist. Can anyone here truly bring up a Final Fantasy that is truly original? Even Resident Evil 4, with it's revolutionary over the shoulder third person games was ultimately based off Alone in the Dark's control scheme and bringing it to the modern age.
Now to MMO's. Even FFXI itself (admitted by the team) took inspiration from Everquest to make their game. You know why? Because at the time...Everquest was simply the best in the industry. When you make an MMO, you have to tell yourself, "What did they do right? How is their game appealing? What can we make that is appealing like that and make a unique experience?". The original FFXI developers thought like this, and did end up making a superior title (Not by subscribers or anything, but technical wise.) and FFXI got it footing into the MMO industry big time. Even before FFXI's release, I saw magazines and people's comments saying that it was just going to be just a "Everquest clone with FF painted on top of it.". Let me ask FFXI players, was this the case? Absolutely not. You got a unique experience that Everquest wouldn't of given you. They succeeded greatly with this and even though it is outdated kind of, FFXI is still one of the most successful MMO titles in the industry.
Now lets go back to FFXIV. "Ohh no, it will be a WoW clone!". Yep, here is how the basic mind works in the MMO industry. This really is just a repeat of what happened to FFXI. To the point it really is deja vu. The reason the original FFXIV failed so hard is because it tried to be too different from it's previous title that it forgot to put in basic modern MMO standards. It went too far in being unique without thought of how people would react to it. WoW for inspiration is most definitely the best thing you could do for ARR right now. Yoshida's mind set isn't "Make WoW and paint FF over it.", I think he has tried to tell you all multiple times that this won't be the case, but you all just don't listen. I feel sorry for Yoshida because it really is like speaking to children with the inability to listen. His mindset is "Find what makes WoW successful, take inspiration from their concepts and make something better and give a great and unique FF experience at the same time.". This is something you will never find in WoW if he gets it right.
Will ARR ever meet WoW's numbers? No, no one will. It is just how it is now. WoW was at the right place at the right time and has been providing fantastic service to their community since day one. Another thing is that people take number of players into account if a game is successful or not. Rather you have twelve million or one million players, if your game reaches the numbers it needs to, it is successful. If you make a quality title, have strong communication, provide great service, and the community itself is well-rounded. It sounds like a game to me that will truly last the long run.
TL;DR: Just give the dev team a chance to show you that FFXIV is a unique experience you won't get from other MMO's. I truly believe in Yoshida, and I hope that others will believe the same. -
12-02-2012, 03:07 AMlucytestarossa
i play wow and wow is just unlimited gear grinding loop when new raid appear.
well best thing in wow is to pick on someone lower level in low level area. and kill of their whole town :p .now i feel bad xD -
12-02-2012, 03:45 AMRuisuThey'll always get the hits whether or not you go. Might as well go and laugh at the terrible articles/community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramul
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12-02-2012, 05:04 AMRexRicky your signature is fan.tas.tic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
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12-02-2012, 06:22 AMMorticousMost successful? Appears to be truth... Greatest? Debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
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12-02-2012, 06:52 AMShurrikhanEach of those points can go, and have been promised to go, further than they have in 1.x.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
I don't personally mind cross-server support on its own. Even if I would prefer to play with my own server, I still (to slightly lesser degree) have that option. Nor did Preypacer mention any of the examples themselves as being problematic. She was asked for examples of pieces (that Yoshida mentioned wanting to go further with) taken from WoW, and gave them. It's the way these concepts interact with the game, usually in ways that are neither initially measurable or expectable, that is cause for worry.
In the end the overall feel of a game, be it Rift, or GW2, or WoW (which I somewhat enjoyed), or FFXIV (which I enjoyed far more), is a gestalt, yet even seemingly small decisions like Cross-Server Grouping can have a huge impact on that feel. Personally, I'd rather the targeted feel, at least in its initial imaginings, be different enough that the issue could at least be examined more closely that a simple "well, why the heck not"? That the game lacks much of any pursued identity, limited instead to the various "things", FF or not, put in it, is what shutters my faith in their implementation. -
12-02-2012, 07:12 AMWolfie
It's been 2 years since Yoshi said he'll be looking at the competition for inspiration and to modernize FFXIV. Are we seriously still having these topics, dudes?
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12-02-2012, 09:06 AMRickybag based inventory system instead of menu fantasy online XIVQuote:
Originally Posted by Felis
thank god
thanks, DBZ sumo ftwQuote:
Originally Posted by Rex
guess it depends how you measure "greatest", I guess that part is subjective, but still these games are business and if that's the way we measure greatness then WoW is the greatestQuote:
Originally Posted by Morticous
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12-02-2012, 09:10 AMShougunPassed through yesterday - saw an article about a women calling her marriage over because her husband didnt save her in game... ... lol "We wus playing portal, and he didnt save me" >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruisu
WoW has a lot of great aspects, obviously - its done so very well. Even the expansions that get grated on have a lot of awesome ideas in them. (Just because I dont like playing doesnt mean I think it has to be shit)
I think SE would do well to seriously try its competition. Not for the purpose of 'copying' but for better evolution of their own game. -
12-02-2012, 09:26 AMNuru
Just in response to the title alone:
Nope.
lol I've played wow and got to about level 35 with a few irl friends of mine, we'd static at his house every other ngiht and play it. It just got too boring for me and some of my friends, so we stopped. It is fun, and it is fun with friends, but when it comes to feeling a sense of accomplishment, WoW fails to deliver.
I hope in FFXIV, every level makes a difference and bring you a step closer to what your goal is. Knowing your goal is a strong point in any MMORPG, and provides a sense of guidance. For example, in FFXI, there were stepping stones. After you hit level 10-11, it was time to get into your first party at the dunes. At level 18, it was time to hunt for subjob items. etc.
I'm pretty sure it will take a while to figure out the stepping stones in a new game like ARR, but as long as there is a system that allows for it, then it would be great for the game. Questing on every job will become tedious, and I do understand that questing is an option as well as grinding. -
12-02-2012, 10:00 AMGramulAny hit I give them is helping them make money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruisu
I don't want to help them get money. Sensationalist tabloid style diarrhea is not what I want for journalism of any subject. -
12-02-2012, 10:21 AMDuelleThis. You won't learn or improve if you don't pay attention to your competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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12-02-2012, 10:31 AMGenjuro
Is this thread still going? FINE I'll kill it. The quote is taken out of context. He meant for the developers to experience other MMO's in general to figure out WTF they're going up against. You can't compete in a world without knowing your competition. Ok done end of discussion.
GAH, and yes I clicked the damned link when all I could have done was just ignore it, but it's more of an annoyance factor now. -
12-02-2012, 02:31 PMFelisYou mean item icons in slots instead of item names in a list? Ragnarok online have it too, and it is older than WoW. So no, this would not be a real WoW clone feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
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12-02-2012, 03:19 PMdebola........it might be because im already at bit sleepy but.... mind = blown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramul
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12-02-2012, 03:27 PMZenaku
FFXIV is not only coping wow but also rift the F.A.T.E is a better version of the random Rifts that happen within the game. I think SE is doing a nice job at copying other games and making the system better and making it more a final fantasy version of it. With crystal tower and many other stuff FFXIV would never be a 100% copy of other games but you need to learn from other mmo.
I myself got bored of wow within 2month soon i hit 70 it was just to dam boring. But i wont lie wow had many things i like and ffxiv seem like it going to have it. Just wait and play ffxiv if it too much like wow to you then i don't know what MMO you going to play then seeing how it more or less all the same at least ffxiv have storyline and 1 char can level all class can't say much about other games. -
12-02-2012, 04:50 PMSpy
Because WoW NEVER gets ideas from things like Pokemon, older mmo's, modern trends/meme's/movies, etc....
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12-02-2012, 05:34 PMSeirra_Lanzce
yea... like Crystal Tower "Endless Dungeon" a.k.a Fractal of the Mist from GW2.. huhuhu lol
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12-02-2012, 05:48 PMRickyI look at it more as taking inspiration from another game, any other game, to improve oursQuote:
Originally Posted by Felis
I'm not obsessed with World of Warcraft like most so I don't think of it first except in this case when I think of easy inventory management, WoW DOES come to mind first -
12-02-2012, 06:42 PMindira
i like EQ over WoW anyday. wow was is one big queue.
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12-02-2012, 10:05 PMAbriael
Repeat whith me: "That's not what he said. That's not what he said. That's not what he said..."
Go on for 10,000 times. -
12-02-2012, 10:06 PMAbriaelGrey man speaks words of wisdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramul
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12-02-2012, 11:01 PMYrusamaXIV is certainly more accessible, unlike XI. For all its improvements, XI still takes a lot of effort to start up, and they give no guides within the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morticous
I wonder if the JP are complaining about this sort of thing. -
12-02-2012, 11:03 PMDaku_NaitoYeah, MMOs taking great things from one another is unforgivable. You should give this up, MMOs will always try to use something else and improve upon it as well as create something new, its not like there are a millions of different ways to do something with regards to MMOs. Yes the fighting is faster, yes we have bags now, but clone? No, it isn't going to be a clone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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12-03-2012, 08:43 AMDeakka
It's good advice that Yoshi-P gives. It's stuff that any corporation would do, examine the competition not only to see what they're doing right and wrong, but what you're doing right and wrong. The 1.0 dev team ran in with blinders, attempting to make a game LIKE FFXI, but UNLIKE FFXI, while eschewing a decades worth of advances in the genre. Things like client based custom UI's, alt tabbing and not crashing full screen, the ability to solo to the level cap, and more.
Get out of your comfort zone, try out other things. I know there's a solid population on this forum that is under the mindset of "GIVE US HD FFXI OR GIVE US DEATH!". No, just no. FFXI only seems amazing to you because you played it for so long with so many good friends. I guarantee you that your linkshell chat was dominated by hatred of spawn windows, Dynamis lock out capability (in case you're sitting outside when someone ninja's your time slot), and of general player unfriendliness. Just stop it. The important thing is that FFXIV keeps the soul of Final Fantasy, not just Final Fantasy XI. -
12-03-2012, 09:32 AMShadow_SamaWut ? /mindblownQuote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VK4ikaqBYnI -
12-03-2012, 09:51 AMRalos
I think it would be better to have them all play multiple MMOs to bring different Points of view to the table.
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12-03-2012, 10:09 AMcasker
There are a lot of things I like about WoW, and a lot that I don't, but one of the reasons FFXIV was so crap at launch was because the devs were so damn oblivious to how MMOs have changed, what competing MMOs offer, and what MMO gamers expect. I can forgive Yoshida for telling his clueless ass dev team to study up. I don't think ARR will be a WoW clone but it'd still be better than what we had.
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12-03-2012, 10:31 AMFelisThey have. WoW was only 1 example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralos